Author Topic: Characters re-entering battle (Read 4151 times)

galadgawyn · « **on:** March 14, 2009, 10:54:25 AM »

Someone has posted a combo like this:

You rescue with Jacob, play Obedience of Noah, Choose a evil character that gives you initiative, play a few cards, play The Long Day, then play stillness to retreat and do it again.

There is a rule that says a character can't go back into battle once they retreat from battle and therefore this wouldn't work. But they pointed out - There is a section in the Reg that says The Long Day is an exception to this rule so this does work.

So does this work? Is the Reg quote correct or is this an outdated ruling? Despite generally being in favor of combos and allowing things to work, I think there is a problem with this one. Other combos can play a whole lot but they are ultimately limited by what cards you have available to use. This one however can really be infinite and I think any truly infinite loops are not good for the game.

TimMierz · « **Reply #1 on:** March 14, 2009, 11:12:30 AM »

The two battles are different battles.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #2 on:** March 16, 2009, 04:13:19 PM »

Of course.

The point was that myself and some others had thought the rule was a character couldn't re-enter battle on the same turn. It seems the Reg does not say that but since that allows an infinite loop then I question whether it should be changed to characters going into battle once per turn.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #3 on:** March 16, 2009, 04:19:26 PM »

Hopefully in answer to your question, yes, the said combo does work. I believe the rule is that a character cannot re-enter the same battle. (If you want an REG ruling, I'm sure there's something in 'special conditions' somewhere.)

crustpope · « **Reply #4 on:** March 16, 2009, 05:59:20 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on March 14, 2009, 10:54:25 AM

Despite generally being in favor of combos and allowing things to work...

I found this hilarious Jon and I had to laugh out loud when you posted it

SO does this delicious new combo of yours have anything to do with a variation on an "eternal" loop of character killing cards?

I cant wait to try and thwart it!

also if you dont mind sharing, is the combo better in 2-player or multi-player?

mjwolfe · « **Reply #5 on:** March 16, 2009, 07:57:23 PM »

Kings - The Long Day special ability:"If holder's rescue attempt this turn fails, holder may make an additional rescue attempt this turn."

Warriors - The Long Day special ability:"If Holder's rescue attempt this turn fails, holder may make a second rescue attempt this turn."

The special ability on both versions of The Long Day only allows you to make two rescue attempts per turn TOTAL. It doesn't allow an infinite number on the same turn. The Warriors version is very clear - you may play The Long Day in your first rescue attempt and if that one fails, you may make a SECOND rescue attempt. If you play it again in your second rescue attempt, it does not allow you a third rescue attempt that turn, only a SECOND and you're already in the second.

The Kings version isn't more lenient just because it uses "additional" instead of "second" primarily because it uses "this turn". Since it grants you "an additional" (which is singular) for the turn you only get ONE additional per turn (1 additional = second).

I think you're hoping it said "If this recuse attempt fails, holder may make another rescue attempt this turn." Unfortunately, that's not what either version says.

Mike

TimMierz · « **Reply #6 on:** March 16, 2009, 08:19:25 PM »

"If a character is forced to withdraw (e.g., Darkness (Warriors)) or withdraws from a battle voluntarily (e.g., Highway), it may not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 54]). Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn (e.g., The Long Day)." - Withdraw from Battle, Special Conditions

"Multiple The Long Day cards may be used in the same battle. “Second” means the same as additional, similar as is the case for banding cards. If a rescue attempt is successful on a turn, holder may not make any more rescues on that turn." - Ongoing Abilities, Miscellaneous

crustpope · « **Reply #7 on:** March 16, 2009, 08:56:55 PM »

it seems like tim has his finger on the pulse of the REG. Im not saying that the REG might change because this has comeup before, but for now it seems like The Long Day could truly be that...a very long day.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #8 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:01:03 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 16, 2009, 08:56:55 PM

it seems like tim has his finger on the pulse of the REG. Im not saying that the REG might change because this has comeup before, but for now it seems like The Long Day could truly be that...a very long day.

Well, no more than 1 hour and 15 minutes for Type I, or 1 hour and 30 minutes for Type II, in a Swiss-Style tournament.

TimMierz · « **Reply #9 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:04:07 PM »

Quote from: crustpope on March 16, 2009, 08:56:55 PM

it seems like tim has his finger on the pulse of the REG. Im not saying that the REG might change because this has comeup before, but for now it seems like The Long Day could truly be that...a very long day.

I just did a search for Day in the REG.

And since this has been around since Warriors, why is this just now a huge issue?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:40:05 PM »

It would be pretty easy to envision an infinite loop that would allow you to draw out your entire deck. It would just require:

1 Obedience of Noah to pick someone that gives infinite initiative,
followed by at least 1 Book of Hozai (to do the drawing and allow to put back at the end of the turn),
followed by 1 The Long Day,
followed by (the blue GE that gets an enh from the discard pile - to get Stillness)
followed by 1 Stillness (to get all of the above back again)

Assuming that there were 5 of each of the above cards, it wouldn't take long to get that combo going. And gradually you would probably add in more Book of Hozai's for faster drawing. Plus you could throw in a few other cards to destroy your opponents territory (ie. artifact killers, fortress killers (requiring banding), character killers, etc.).

Then at the end of your turn, you just put back any cards that you don't need to win (making sure to put all your LSs on the bottom of the deck). Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems a bit too easy to make, and a bit to broken to be legal

TimMierz · « **Reply #11 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:42:06 PM »

Hmm, how come since the cards have been around (and the latest one you mentioned was Book of Hozai from Kings), this hasn't been dominating any scenes?

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:53:53 PM »

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a missing word in the following quote:

Instant Abilities -> Withdraw from Battle -> Special Conditions

• If a character is forced to withdraw (e.g., Darkness (Warriors)) or withdraws from a battle voluntarily (e.g., Highway), it may not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 54]). Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn (e.g., The Long Day).

I highlighted "moreover," because the second sentence seems to be an exception to the first rather than an additional clarification that the word moreover would suggest. Was it supposed to say "may not enter?"

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #13 on:** March 16, 2009, 09:54:56 PM »

Quote from: TimMierz on March 16, 2009, 09:42:06 PM

Hmm, how come since the cards have been around (and the latest one you mentioned was Book of Hozai from Kings), this hasn't been dominating any scenes?

I would guess that either:
- no one thought of it (not likely),
- or it takes up enough cards that it isn't really worth it (more likely),
- or it was previously ruled illegal for some reason that hasn't come up yet (most likely).

crustpope · « **Reply #14 on:** March 17, 2009, 09:22:28 AM »

Kirk has been using this combo to beat up people in type II if I am not mistaken. I dont think he used this exact combo though.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #15 on:** March 17, 2009, 11:35:23 AM »

Quote from: TimMierz on March 16, 2009, 09:42:06 PM

Hmm, how come since the cards have been around (and the latest one you mentioned was Book of Hozai from Kings), this hasn't been dominating any scenes?

FooF Jacob if I had to take a guess. The ability to play a genesis Enh. (OoN) to pick someone huge who's immune (Like Nero) and then keep playing Enh til you're done.

crustpope · « **Reply #16 on:** March 17, 2009, 12:30:08 PM »

well nero isnt huge. his def is only 7 but he is immune so I see what you mean. but yeah that is the general jist

galadgawyn · « **Reply #17 on:** March 17, 2009, 03:59:54 PM »

Yes the Foof Jacob is one of the cards that make it different now. There are a couple of others that seem obvious to me but I haven't seen other people mention them. (hint: a card that doesn't do a lot but if you think about unlimited use of it in one turn....)

There are other possible combos to wipe out people but they tend to require more cards to make them work (since they are not infinite). Because of similar reasons, the other combos generally only work in type 2 but this would be quite possible in type 1. Also, with this combo you could be down 6-0, have nothing in your deck to beat your opponent, have 50 mins left in the game and still force a timeout because of the inifinite loop. These are some of the reasons I think this is different than some of the other combos discussed on here.

crustpope · « **Reply #18 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:20:04 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on March 17, 2009, 03:59:54 PM

Also, with this combo you could be down 6-0, have nothing in your deck to beat your opponent, have 50 mins left in the game and still force a timeout because of the inifinite loop.

This I would have a definite problem with. I am all for sweet combos and I can say that I am comfortable from both sides of the combo (having been a victim of Mr. Cressel's 2007 Type II deck). They can be frustrating to sit through, but you have to give the gamer the props for having put it all together.

But ot abuse the system to force time out game is just the pits of bad sportsmanship and runs cocntrary to the nature and spirit of the game.

I reccomend that we make some sort of ruling that prevents people from using an infinite combo to force a time out win. an example of this would be that each combo has to accomplish something such as kill and EC or remove a site or place asome king of enhancement that might possibly grant you access to a LS later on int he game. but timply playing a Long Day loop or similar jsut to force a time out loss or tie is not what the game was designed for.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #19 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:33:55 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 16, 2009, 09:53:53 PM

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a missing word in the following quote:

Instant Abilities -> Withdraw from Battle -> Special Conditions

• If a character is forced to withdraw (e.g., Darkness (Warriors)) or withdraws from a battle voluntarily (e.g., Highway), it may not re-enter the current battle (see Withdraw in the glossary of the rulebook [p. 54]). Moreover, the character may enter on a new battle on the same turn (e.g., The Long Day).

I highlighted "moreover," because the second sentence seems to be an exception to the first rather than an additional clarification that the word moreover would suggest. Was it supposed to say "may not enter?"

No one seemed to comment on the above quote, so I'll post it again. Is it possible that the REG quote in question is actually a typo?

crustpope · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:41:04 PM »

I dunno, that would make sense but I am pretty sure that we have discussed this specific combo before and come to the conclusion that it works. I will see if I can try to find it.

SirNobody · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2009, 04:48:41 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on March 17, 2009, 04:33:55 PM

No one seemed to comment on the above quote, so I'll post it again. Is it possible that the REG quote in question is actually a typo?

I was looking back in old versions of the REG to find the origin of that comment but got bored when I hit the June 2003 REG and gave up. I did find a different quote today that I believe supports your idea.

From the REG in the banding section:

Quote

However, if the character brought into battle by a banding special ability is discarded or withdrawn from battle (voluntarily or by force), that character may not re-enter the battle that turn (this includes any side battle happening the same turn).

I believe that could be considered adequate to rule the Jacob/Obedience of Noah/The Long Day/Stillness illegal.

Quote from: crustpope on March 17, 2009, 04:20:04 PM

Quote from: galadgawyn on March 17, 2009, 03:59:54 PM
Also, with this combo you could be down 6-0, have nothing in your deck to beat your opponent, have 50 mins left in the game and still force a timeout because of the inifinite loop.

I reccomend that we make some sort of ruling that prevents people from using an infinite combo to force a time out win.

This rule used to (does still?) exist. Stalling is illegal. Stalling is defined as taking more time than is necessary. Playing cards that serve no purpose (other than taking time to play and bringing the end of the game closer) is considered "taking more time than is necessary."

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

galadgawyn · « **Reply #22 on:** March 19, 2009, 04:24:51 PM »

Quote

However, if the character brought into battle by a banding special ability is discarded or withdrawn from battle (voluntarily or by force), that character may not re-enter the battle that turn (this includes any side battle happening the same turn).

I believe that could be considered adequate to rule the Jacob/Obedience of Noah/The Long Day/Stillness illegal.

There is also a part in the rulebook that indicates that you can't do this combo. The problem is that the Reg currently has The Long Day as an exception to these rules so I don't think your quote would matter. However my feeling (like YMT's) is that the Reg has a typo in it or it was never updated. But until that is corrected the combo is legal (and I'm going to really abuse it).

Bryon · « **Reply #23 on:** March 20, 2009, 01:35:39 PM »

The banding section and Long Day section are in conflict. I think the banding section is correct. Once a hero withdraws from battle, it cannot enter battle again that turn, even in a side battle.

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Author Topic: Characters re-entering battle (Read 4151 times)