Author Topic: Change Hand Size  (Read 180 times)

Offline Watchman

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Change Hand Size
« on: November 21, 2019, 07:54:14 AM »
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Palegreen/Crimson hand control is gaining some strength.  Serpent's Curse + Death + Distressing People = 5 card max hand for your opponent.

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Online RedemptionAggie

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 01:14:25 PM »
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"Change hand size" targets the player, not the hand, so protecting the hand doesn't really help against it.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2019, 01:52:10 PM »
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"Change hand size" targets the player, not the hand, so protecting the hand doesn't really help against it.

I’m not seeing the difference. The “hand” is what’s in the player’s hand. The “hand” and the player whose hand it is is synonymous.
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Offline Sean

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2019, 02:59:05 PM »
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Re: Aggie and Watchman

I was thinking about this as well because I can see how it would not be able to be protected against but can also see how it would.  It would be great if it could be clarified in the next REG update.
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Online RedemptionAggie

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 04:10:10 PM »
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"Change hand size" alters the end of turn hand size. It's more like a restrict (Restrict opponent from ending their turn with a hand size greater than X), not a hand discard ability (if opponent has more than X cards in hand in their discard phase, they must reduce their hand).

If you are restricted from searching, you still can't search a even if the deck is protected. Same idea.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2019, 08:29:53 PM »
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"Change hand size" alters the end of turn hand size. It's more like a restrict (Restrict opponent from ending their turn with a hand size greater than X), not a hand discard ability (if opponent has more than X cards in hand in their discard phase, they must reduce their hand).

If you are restricted from searching, you still can't search a even if the deck is protected. Same idea.

I understand the idea but in execution and wording it’s very confusing and unintuitive. For one thing a restrict specifies players. With wording for change hand size and hand whatever (shuffle, discard, underdeck, etc) it specifies “hand,” which appears to be targeting your hand, not the player, unlike how the restrict ability specifies players from doing X.

Picture being a new player (or even a somewhat experienced player) and reading Death or Serpent’s Curse. Wouldn’t you intuitively think your hand is being targeted based upon the wording?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2019, 09:14:52 AM »
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I was thinking about this as well because I can see how it would not be able to be protected against but can also see how it would.  It would be great if it could be clarified in the next REG update.

When you checked the REG for this topic, what part did you find that you feel needs to be clarified? As someone who understands this I don't find anything confusing under the "Change Hand Size" entry for special abilities or under the "Hand" entry in the glossary. If there's something there that doesn't make sense we'll need your help understanding specifically what that is.

I understand the idea but in execution and wording it’s very confusing and unintuitive. For one thing a restrict specifies players. With wording for change hand size and hand whatever (shuffle, discard, underdeck, etc) it specifies “hand,” which appears to be targeting your hand, not the player, unlike how the restrict ability specifies players from doing X.

Picture being a new player (or even a somewhat experienced player) and reading Death or Serpent’s Curse. Wouldn’t you intuitively think your hand is being targeted based upon the wording?

This is the first time I've heard anyone call a change hand size card "confusing" or "unintuitive". While I get that is the case for you I'd venture to say that isn't the case for everyone, or even the majority, if it's never come up before.

If we follow your logic that we should be able to protect from cards that alter the game rule pertaining to hand size then when my hand is protected I should be allowed to draw beyond the maximum 16 card limit as well. That also feels unintuitive, not to mention it's something we don't want.
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Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2019, 09:33:06 AM »
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I also though something that protected hand would protect your hand size.  Im sure the difference is clearly explained in the rules, but just looking at the cards i would assume that hand and hand size would be the same thing, because why would they be different? In this way it isnt intuitive, because you have to read the REG to learn they are different things.

 As far as i know all hand protection protect from opponents, so it would not protect you from the game rule of max 16 cards if hand protection protected hand size, plus there are rules on the books about protecton not protecting you from game rules already (see discard from decrease and protection) so i dont see this as an issue.

Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2019, 10:07:01 AM »
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I personally thought hand protection protected from this and didn't think it needed asked. But can see both sides being correct depending how you look at it.

If it targets the player or alters game rule then hand protect doesn't work

If it targets the hand (which is how most could be read) it would be protected from.

Offline Sean

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Re: Change Hand Size
« Reply #9 on: November 23, 2019, 11:46:53 AM »
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I was thinking about this as well because I can see how it would not be able to be protected against but can also see how it would.  It would be great if it could be clarified in the next REG update.

When you checked the REG for this topic, what part did you find that you feel needs to be clarified? As someone who understands this I don't find anything confusing under the "Change Hand Size" entry for special abilities or under the "Hand" entry in the glossary. If there's something there that doesn't make sense we'll need your help understanding specifically what that is.

I understand the idea but in execution and wording it’s very confusing and unintuitive. For one thing a restrict specifies players. With wording for change hand size and hand whatever (shuffle, discard, underdeck, etc) it specifies “hand,” which appears to be targeting your hand, not the player, unlike how the restrict ability specifies players from doing X.

Picture being a new player (or even a somewhat experienced player) and reading Death or Serpent’s Curse. Wouldn’t you intuitively think your hand is being targeted based upon the wording?

This is the first time I've heard anyone call a change hand size card "confusing" or "unintuitive". While I get that is the case for you I'd venture to say that isn't the case for everyone, or even the majority, if it's never come up before.

If we follow your logic that we should be able to protect from cards that alter the game rule pertaining to hand size then when my hand is protected I should be allowed to draw beyond the maximum 16 card limit as well. That also feels unintuitive, not to mention it's something we don't want.
The part that I'm not clear on is what is being targeted by the 'protect hand' cards.  Hand size is directly related to a player's hand.
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