Author Topic: Birth Foretold and a couple of dominants (Read 5405 times)

BubbleBoy · « **on:** March 31, 2011, 01:49:18 PM »

I've wondered this ever since I saw Birth Foretold: If I play Birth Foretold to search for Son of God, and then my opponent plays Mayhem, does Son of God get shuffled? If not, then I assume I would not get to draw 6 new cards, because my entire hand was not shuffled.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #1 on:** March 31, 2011, 01:51:45 PM »

OH SNAP.

Bryon · « **Reply #2 on:** March 31, 2011, 01:53:03 PM »

Protect only targets cards in play, unless specified otherwise. For an example of a list of otherwises, see Thad.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #3 on:** March 31, 2011, 01:58:24 PM »

The thing is that Birth Foretold targets specific cards. I though there was a rule about that.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #4 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:01:32 PM »

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 31, 2011, 01:58:24 PM

The thing is that Birth Foretold targets specific cards. I though there was a rule about that.

I agree. See Prince of the Air and Chamber.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #5 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:23:24 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 31, 2011, 02:01:32 PM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 31, 2011, 01:58:24 PM
The thing is that Birth Foretold targets specific cards. I though there was a rule about that.
I agree. See Prince of the Air and Chamber.

And Job + Dust and Ashes

Bryon · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:49:17 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 31, 2011, 02:01:32 PM

Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 31, 2011, 01:58:24 PM
The thing is that Birth Foretold targets specific cards. I though there was a rule about that.
I agree. See Prince of the Air and Chamber.

I thought we solved that issue by giving errata/play as to Prince of the Air.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 31, 2011, 02:23:24 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 31, 2011, 02:01:32 PM
Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 31, 2011, 01:58:24 PM
The thing is that Birth Foretold targets specific cards. I though there was a rule about that.
I agree. See Prince of the Air and Chamber.

And Job + Dust and Ashes

Dust and Ashes isn't a protect.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:51:44 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 31, 2011, 02:49:17 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 31, 2011, 02:01:32 PM
Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 31, 2011, 01:58:24 PM
The thing is that Birth Foretold targets specific cards. I though there was a rule about that.
I agree. See Prince of the Air and Chamber.
I thought we solved that issue by giving errata/play as to Prince of the Air.

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on March 31, 2011, 02:23:24 PM
Quote from: SomeKittens on March 31, 2011, 02:01:32 PM
Quote from: BubbleBoy on March 31, 2011, 01:58:24 PM
The thing is that Birth Foretold targets specific cards. I though there was a rule about that.
I agree. See Prince of the Air and Chamber.

And Job + Dust and Ashes
Dust and Ashes isn't a protect.

So are you saying the rule is that abilities only target cards in play unless specified otherwise or targeting specific cards, except when that ability is a protect ability?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:52:33 PM »

Prince of the Air (Pi)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 10 / 11 • Class: None • Special Ability: Return an angel in battle (except warrior class) to owner’s territory. If block is successful, place one Chamber of Angels and its contents beneath owner’s draw pile. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Return one non-warrior class angel in battle to owner’s territory. If block is successful, place one Chamber of Angels and its contents beneath owner’s deck. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: NT Male Demon • Verse: Ephesians 2:2 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Rare)

I don't see how the play as changes things...

Bryon · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2011, 02:55:02 PM »

Found the errata here: http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24.0

Special abilities only target cards in play, unless another location is specified.

The second sentence of Dust and Ashes does not target anything. It only replaces the effect of another card that targeted Job. The other card did the targeting. Dust and Ashes only replaced the effect.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2011, 03:37:02 PM »

"Dust and Ashes" and "Chamber of Angels" are face up on the table (although not in play) so they might be more targetable than cards in your hand. I'm not actually sure how the ruling on this will go. But it if it is ruled that SoG in your hand is protected by Birth Foretold, then you are correct that Mayhem would NOT shuffle your entire hand, and therefore the draw 6 would NOT happen either.

Quote from: Bryon on March 31, 2011, 02:55:02 PM

The second sentence of Dust and Ashes does not target anything. It only replaces the effect of another card that targeted Job. The other card did the targeting. Dust and Ashes only replaced the effect.

I think they are referring to the ruling that D&A targets Job even if Job is harmed when he is currently set-aside.

P.S. I also thought I remembered PoA getting an eratta.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2011, 03:45:10 PM »

Alright, that makes sense.

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2011, 04:06:11 PM »

If Birth Foretold only targets cards in play, why does it even include SoG in the protection clause since SoG will never be in play?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** March 31, 2011, 04:07:11 PM »

Quote from: browarod on March 31, 2011, 04:06:11 PM

If Birth Foretold only targets cards in play, why does it even include SoG in the protection clause since SoG will never be in play?

I'm guessing it's because the wording was shorter that way.

browarod · « **Reply #14 on:** March 31, 2011, 04:12:05 PM »

Adding "(except Son of God)" wouldn't have added more than one additional line to a 4-line ability, and they have tons of other 5-line abilities, so it seems like it would have been worth it to prevent confusion.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #15 on:** March 31, 2011, 04:24:11 PM »

Quote from: browarod on March 31, 2011, 04:06:11 PM

If Birth Foretold only targets cards in play, why does it even include SoG in the protection clause since SoG will never be in play?

That is a good point. I think I would lean toward saying that SoG IS protected in your hand that turn. It seems the more intuitive way to play the card in the case of your opponent blocking you and playing High Priests Plot. Therefore, I think this could be the one risk of using Birth Foretold to get SoG before you plan on actually playing it.

Of course, if you play Birth Foretold to get SoG and have NJ already in your hand, then you would get to play it first (responding to your own action) before your opponent played Mayhem, as long as you move quickly.

Red · « **Reply #16 on:** March 31, 2011, 04:48:27 PM »

Dominants are why Redemption needs a Stack.(FILO)

Michael_of_the_Star · « **Reply #17 on:** March 31, 2011, 05:01:01 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 31, 2011, 04:24:11 PM

Quote from: browarod on March 31, 2011, 04:06:11 PM
If Birth Foretold only targets cards in play, why does it even include SoG in the protection clause since SoG will never be in play?
That is a good point. I think I would lean toward saying that SoG IS protected in your hand that turn. It seems the more intuitive way to play the card in the case of your opponent blocking you and playing High Priests Plot. Therefore, I think this could be the one risk of using Birth Foretold to get SoG before you plan on actually playing it.

Of course, if you play Birth Foretold to get SoG and have NJ already in your hand, then you would get to play it first (responding to your own action) before your opponent played Mayhem, as long as you move quickly.

However, after you use Birth Foretold and then your opponent play or band someone that randomly discard card from hand, what if happen to be Son of God? Thanks.

ML.

Bryon · « **Reply #18 on:** March 31, 2011, 05:18:20 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 31, 2011, 04:07:11 PM

Quote from: browarod on March 31, 2011, 04:06:11 PM
If Birth Foretold only targets cards in play, why does it even include SoG in the protection clause since SoG will never be in play?
I'm guessing it's because the wording was shorter that way.

Exactly.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:13:20 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on March 31, 2011, 05:18:20 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 31, 2011, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: browarod on March 31, 2011, 04:06:11 PM
If Birth Foretold only targets cards in play, why does it even include SoG in the protection clause since SoG will never be in play?
I'm guessing it's because the wording was shorter that way.
Exactly.

No offense, but that's a silly reason. It's thinking like that which gets us cards like Split Altar that don't work properly. I really don't think most players would care if one more centimeter of the image was slightly covered by another line of text that makes the card make sense (or work at all in the case of Split Altar). After all, if people wanted to see the entire art of their card, they could always use enhancements with no special ability

.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #20 on:** March 31, 2011, 07:27:11 PM »

I too agree that if a card needs to be made longer to avoid confusion, it should be.

Michael_of_the_Star · « **Reply #21 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:11:04 AM »

Why we upgrade our cards into a new form, so that way more words can be fit in cards. Thanks.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #22 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:18:00 AM »

Historically speaking, clarifiers have been more confusing than helpful.

Seriously though, I don't see why we need to put game rules on cards. In starter decks, yes, but in expansion packs, no. It's a less known rule, but regardless, special abilities don't override game rule.

Bryon · « **Reply #23 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:23:03 AM »

Quote from: browarod on March 31, 2011, 07:13:20 PM

Quote from: Bryon on March 31, 2011, 05:18:20 PM
Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 31, 2011, 04:07:11 PM
Quote from: browarod on March 31, 2011, 04:06:11 PM
If Birth Foretold only targets cards in play, why does it even include SoG in the protection clause since SoG will never be in play?
I'm guessing it's because the wording was shorter that way.
Exactly.
No offense, but that's a silly reason. It's thinking like that which gets us cards like Split Altar that don't work properly. I really don't think most players would care if one more centimeter of the image was slightly covered by another line of text that makes the card make sense (or work at all in the case of Split Altar). After all, if people wanted to see the entire art of their card, they could always use enhancements with no special ability .

I know you said you didn't mean to offend, but calling my reason silly is kind of offensive. That's like saying "I'm not meaning to hurt you while I strike you with my bat."

Split Altar was messed up because not a single playtester remembered that "all artifacts" defaulted to "all artifacts in play," or else, no playtester read it closely enough to notice that it was written that way. That was a proofreading error. That has nothing to do with not wanting to clutter a card with (except Son of God).

In fact, "(except Son of God)" would have caused MORE confusion, not less. Players would ask "How can you protect Son of God anyway? It isn't even in play!" We would have said "Protect cards with those titles in play and in hand from..." if we wanted to protect Son of God in hand.

Someday, there may be a way to place your Son of God card on a Manger artifact for some really nice effect. When that is possible, it might be very nice to play Brith Foretold first.

browarod · « **Reply #24 on:** April 01, 2011, 12:48:28 AM »

Quote from: Bryon on April 01, 2011, 12:23:03 AM

I know you said you didn't mean to offend, but calling my reason silly is kind of offensive. That's like saying "I'm not meaning to hurt you while I strike you with my bat."

I'm sorry, I figured common sense would allow the understood "seems like" between "that" and "a silly" to not need to be typed considering my statement was an opinion. Apparently not everything can be omitted without causing confusion.

Quote from: Bryon on April 01, 2011, 12:23:03 AM

Split Altar was messed up because not a single playtester remembered that "all artifacts" defaulted to "all artifacts in play," or else, no playtester read it closely enough to notice that it was written that way. That was a proofreading error. That has nothing to do with not wanting to clutter a card with (except Son of God).

I never said (except Son of God) should have been added to Split Altar, that makes no sense. I was merely pointing out that, in my opinion (I'm explicitly stating it since you missed it last time), having a "less is more" attitude seems more harmful in the long run than just writing what you need to know on each card. When people train themselves to write things using the least number of words possible, they are more inclined to put too much less on the occasional card (see: Split Altar). I'm not saying every rule regarding the special ability should be printed on each card, but in a game where abilities are everything (and can override (certain) game rules) it seems like the occasional card with a little too much information is better than ending up with cards that don't function (see again: Split Altar). If you disagree, fine, but that's the way I see it.

Quote from: Bryon on April 01, 2011, 12:23:03 AM

In fact, "(except Son of God)" would have caused MORE confusion, not less. Players would ask "How can you protect Son of God anyway? It isn't even in play!" We would have said "Protect cards with those titles in play and in hand from..." if we wanted to protect Son of God in hand.

Confusion? Perhaps. Threads in Ruling Questions (like this very one)? I doubt it. As I said above, in my opinion, having momentary confusion about the oddly specific nature of a card seems to be better than uncertainty about how the card works at all as the former doesn't require needing to ask for a ruling.

News:

Author Topic: Birth Foretold and a couple of dominants (Read 5405 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Lamborghini_diablo

browarod

Warrior_Monk

browarod

browarod

Lamborghini_diablo

Warrior_Monk

browarod