Author Topic: Asahel/Jael & Passover and Unleavened Bread (Read 12578 times)

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #50 on:** May 14, 2010, 12:28:59 AM »

That's awesome. except for Mark's picture. He's just reporting the news. I'm not really sure why he's being marytred for this? I mean, Tim and I developed the combo together. The PTB has known about this since its inception. Mark didn't cry wolf at all.

Also, Kevin's doesn't really fit, nor does Rob's - But Bryon and Mike were very well done

Sean · « **Reply #51 on:** May 14, 2010, 12:33:26 AM »

Quote

except for Mark's picture. He's just reporting the news. I'm not really sure why he's being marytred for this?

Quote from: Second Hand Lions

First, we'll see what he's sellin...then we'll shoot him.

We saw what he's sellin, now its time to shoot him. *Goes to get shotgun*

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #52 on:** May 14, 2010, 12:33:56 AM »

Lol, great movie.

Master KChief · « **Reply #53 on:** May 14, 2010, 12:34:32 AM »

Quote from: RTSmaniac on May 14, 2010, 12:21:58 AM

this just became my wallpaper.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #54 on:** May 14, 2010, 01:07:56 AM »

Guys this is a combo that is majority in the red brigade. Let me rephrase that. Red has not even been discussed let alone used, at a high level tournament. Now a good combo comes out, that is right on par with Jacob/RTC, or a regular CTB, and it is getting an errata? Just let it be. Red is seeing the light at the end of the tunnel and with this errata the rock is being rolled in front of the tunnel. Poor red.

I think this combo needs to be allowed for this season tournament play, and if it is truly a "game breaker" then discuss it after nationals.

Master KChief · « **Reply #55 on:** May 14, 2010, 01:40:13 AM »

exactly. leave it be until proven op.

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #56 on:** May 14, 2010, 01:56:14 AM »

Quote from: Master KChief on May 14, 2010, 01:40:13 AM

exactly. leave it be until proven op.

I agree

if you want to weaken it I would suggest just changing when triggers activate (that way it would also do a similar thing to the Provisions HT combo which I find a bit weird that it works)

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #57 on:** May 14, 2010, 01:59:01 AM »

That was the aproach taken last year. when Gabe won nationals with Cliff's deck the PTB shifted into a more proactive stance on combo's.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #58 on:** May 14, 2010, 03:15:43 AM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on May 14, 2010, 01:59:01 AM

That was the aproach taken last year. when Gabe won nationals with Cliff's deck the PTB shifted into a more proactive stance on combo's.

While a proactive stance is necessary on some combos there needs to be some valid concern for it. EG: A combo that once set up is unstoppable.
Or
EG: A combo that would instantly win a lost soul with no possible counter

This is neither of them though. The worst part is so many cards stop this combo it seems a bit silly. Yes its quick, yes its powerful, yes it takes 2 turns to set up, 2 cards and is hard to stop if left unchecked BUT at the same time so does Reach Aocp, yet no errata for that.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #59 on:** May 14, 2010, 03:43:18 AM »

5-7 cards is not 'so many' additionally all of them less one are counter-counter-able.

Imagine tossing this into a place-loop, or a gathered chain. This makes it a combo that is fairly unstoppable, sure you might get around it once, but I can simply do it again.

Master KChief · « **Reply #60 on:** May 14, 2010, 04:25:48 AM »

almost everything in the entire game is counter-counterable.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #61 on:** May 14, 2010, 04:36:40 AM »

Yes, but not everything is a CBN rescue.

Master KChief · « **Reply #62 on:** May 14, 2010, 05:02:53 AM »

the point is there are counters to cbn rescues. and counters to those. and counters to those.

Korunks · « **Reply #63 on:** May 14, 2010, 08:27:36 AM »

Let me just say how angry this situation makes me, I posted a question on this combo months ago and was told by many of the people involved in this discussion that the combo did not work, only to find that it indeed did work, but now is being errated. What is the point of me posting ruling questions just to be given false information? I had players in my club want to use this combo but didn't because I was given the consensus that it did not work. Why should any tournament host bother to post ruling questions here if the answer going to be given is untrue?? For those of you who may not remember the thread is here. I am disgusted at this, why should I even bother hosting at this point. I cannot even be sure the ruling information I get on these forums is sound.

Gabe · « **Reply #64 on:** May 14, 2010, 08:33:43 AM »

I'm sad to see this errata issued at this time.

1) This hasn't proven to be a problem.

2) Red, and to some extent gold, are already weak. We don't need to take this away from them.

3) This is a major change right before the "big tournament" season. Cactus has always avoided making this kind of change in the past.

I wish that Rob would at least decide to wait until after Nationals, then reconsider at that time.

All that being said, I don't see the PT board so there might be information I'm missing. Either way I'm not going to lose any sleep over this.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #65 on:** May 14, 2010, 08:50:41 AM »

I have to say, I am getting rather fed up with this system. There are people who say, "Gez, guyz, jest let teh rull-makr ppl teel uss waht 2 do." But however well that may work in certain governments, this is a card game. If the makers of it don't make any money off it, then it will die. And the best way to get money is to do what the people want. And the best way to do that is to give the people power. Card games do not work as well as a dictatorship, because we can just say, "Eh, I'll go play this game instead." I don't know what goes on in those secret ruling meetings that us ordinary folk are forbidden to see, but I find it funny that they almost always result in a ruling with less than 25% popular approval rating. Is this not a sign of a bad system?

Sean · « **Reply #66 on:** May 14, 2010, 09:06:49 AM »

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And the best way to do that is to give the people power.

Disagree 100%. We need a few select people who know the rules really well to make all the decisions and trust them to make those decisions. We need the people with "power" to listen to the masses. As far as I can tell, both of those things happen with regularity.

Quote

I find it funny that they almost always result in a ruling with less than 25% popular approval rating. Is this not a sign of a bad system?

No, its a sign of strength. Strength of knowledge and strength of character.

Quote

Why should any tournament host bother to post ruling questions here if the answer going to be given is untrue?? For those of you who may not remember the thread is here.

FWIW, Tim never waivered from saying that triggered abilities happen after activated abilities.

Korunks · « **Reply #67 on:** May 14, 2010, 09:14:51 AM »

I want their to be a group that make quick concise accurate rulings, but I also want transparency. I want people to give correct answers to questions instead of hiding the "right" answers about combo's because they want to win some more tournaments. I want to be able to trust the answers I am given in this section. At this point unless Bryon or Rob hands down an answer I will rule according to the REG, and if the REG doesn't cover it, and Bryon or Rob doesn't answer I will make the decision, if I am wrong, tough. If you come to my tourney's better check your combos with me, don't bother bringing an print out from the forums unless Bryon or Rob has posted an agreement on a ruling, because I will disregard it. I no longer trust any answer given by other players.

I apologize if this sounds harsh.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #68 on:** May 14, 2010, 09:21:44 AM »

Quote from: Sean on May 14, 2010, 09:06:49 AM

We need the people with "power" to listen to the masses.

YES WE DO! This is what I am saying. I constantly see people arguing that a certain ruling should be changed while the PTB seem to just ignore it. True, once in a while they step up and say "Alright, if this is what you want, we'll make a couple changes," like with the Moses being a judge ruling. But most of the time I feel like what we the people have to say means very little. And now after hearing something like "This rule has already been decided to need change and there is nothing you can do," I wanna throw up. This is not how the heirarchy should work.

Quote from: Sean on May 14, 2010, 09:06:49 AM

Quote
I find it funny that they almost always result in a ruling with less than 25% popular approval rating. Is this not a sign of a bad system?
No, its a sign of strength. Strength of knowledge and strength of character.

Do you consider a very stubborn person as having "strong character"?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #69 on:** May 14, 2010, 09:35:02 AM »

Quote from: Korunks on May 14, 2010, 08:27:36 AM

Let me just say how angry this situation makes me, I posted a question on this combo months ago and was told by many of the people involved in this discussion that the combo did not work, only to find that it indeed did work, but now is being errated. What is the point of me posting ruling questions just to be given false information? I had players in my club want to use this combo but didn't because I was given the consensus that it did not work. Why should any tournament host bother to post ruling questions here if the answer going to be given is untrue?? For those of you who may not remember the thread is here. I am disgusted at this, why should I even bother hosting at this point. I cannot even be sure the ruling information I get on these forums is sound.

Frankly your response is kind of amusing, considering that in the thread you linked, no official conclusion is reached, and both Tim and I say it works......

Furthermore I don't think P&U is getting errata persay, Mark called it a clarification, since people seemed to be split on whether or not it was a gained/triggered in the first place.

Pale Green is pretty weak too, but we felt the need to take SitC away from them.

Quote from: Korunks on May 14, 2010, 09:14:51 AM

I want their to be a group that make quick concise accurate rulings, but I also want transparency. I want people to give correct answers to questions instead of hiding the "right" answers about combo's because they want to win some more tournaments. I want to be able to trust the answers I am given in this section. At this point unless Bryon or Rob hands down an answer I will rule according to the REG, and if the REG doesn't cover it, and Bryon or Rob doesn't answer I will make the decision, if I am wrong, tough. If you come to my tourney's better check your combos with me, don't bother bringing an print out from the forums unless Bryon or Rob has posted an agreement on a ruling, because I will disregard it. I no longer trust any answer given by other players.

I apologize if this sounds harsh.

Remind me not to come to any tournaments in your area any time soon. The REG is helplessly out of date. If you insist on distrusting the players so much, then you're handcuffing yourself and your players.

Korunks · « **Reply #70 on:** May 14, 2010, 09:44:15 AM »

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Remind me not to come to any tournaments in your area any time soon. The REG is helplessly out of date. If you insist on distrusting the players so much, then you're handcuffing yourself and your players.

And getting incorrect answers from other players consensus is any better? Players knew that this combo supposedly worked, and yet the majority decision in that thread(since there was no consensus) was that it did not work, what else is a host supposed to go by? Where else can I go to get correct answers? If this forum isn't it then I don't know what is. The REG is the only rulebook we have to go by, I cannot trust anything besides an PTB ruling because anything else is either incorrect, or becomes incorrect. I would be setting up my players for dissapointment going the other way as much as you say I am harming them by doing it it my way.

Also Tim's comment was regarding placed enhancements not Gained abilities.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #71 on:** May 14, 2010, 09:51:54 AM »

Tim's comment was regarding the order of operations, of which both placed enhancements and gained abilites are parts of. The reason that the thread didn't really answer your question about the combo is because everyone focused on the order of operations as opposed to whether P&U was a gained or triggered ability. And you can't really have a consensus when only 6-7 people post, and two of them say it works, I mean yeah, 5-2 is a majority, but not a real strong one, especially when one of the two is a playtester.

Korunks · « **Reply #72 on:** May 14, 2010, 10:04:19 AM »

I agree that 5-2 isn't much of a majority, but I had to answer the question. I don't have the luxury of waiting when I have to give answers on a weekly basis. I have to go with whatever is given to me by the forums whether good or bad. In the case of the playtester, I give him the same weight I would give any of the major players(such as yourself, Prof U., Prof A, Gabe, Pol, Lambo, and many more) because he like some of the other players is occasionally wrong. That may not be the right approach to take, but I have only hosted for a year and am still learning which decisions to trust and which ones not to. Perhaps saying that only the REG and Bryon/Rob quotes is all I will accept is harsh, but what other choice have I if I want to rule fairly? I cannot simply rule something because "someone" on the forums says it will work. What would you do?

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #73 on:** May 14, 2010, 10:06:26 AM »

I would do a search of the forums, realize that we've ruled P&U as a triggred ability and bring that up in your thread, in order to bring it back on track.

Korunks · « **Reply #74 on:** May 14, 2010, 10:16:11 AM »

And when was P&U ruled a triggered ability, in this thread, coming 5 months after my own? Which means I have been ruling it wrong for months. Sure, I could update my thread, but then I would have to deal with all the "OH N0eZ!! someone necroposted!!! It is SPAM LOL" nonsense that comes with updating any old thread around here. And then this thread announces that it currently works, but will be going away soon. So what do I tell my club members who wanted to use this combo, "Oh apparently my question wasn't actually answered, just commented on and the combo works, but the PTB are going to change it soon any ways". No matter how you look at it is not a good situation, or a good way to answer ruling questions.

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Author Topic: Asahel/Jael & Passover and Unleavened Bread (Read 12578 times)