Author Topic: ANB and Artifacts (Read 12117 times)

BubbleBoy · « **on:** August 16, 2009, 07:56:10 AM »

I know this question has been asked and answered before, but I forget: If I activate Chariot of Fire, make a rescue attempt, and play A New Beginning, do I get to shuffle my discarded Heroes?

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:09:10 PM »

The last ruling on these boards was a very tentative, "Yes, CoF would work."

This exact question has been raised about half a dozen times on the boards and I don't think any of the PTB has ever offered an opinion either way. So take the above with a grain of salt and don't be surprised if the host rules the other way.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #2 on:** August 16, 2009, 03:36:43 PM »

If no one had replied to this post, that's what I would have though.

Honestly though, I don't think I've ever actually used ANB in my life before. I was just curious if there was an official rule yet.

TheKarazyvicePresidentRR · « **Reply #3 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:25:31 PM »

There is no "official' rule but I'd rule no. By the time the battle ended the new turn has started and cof is no longer active.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #4 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:34:56 PM »

Yeah, now that I think of it ANB sort of forces the game into a new phase, without the battle having ended yet. ...So CoF would probably fizzle. ...

frisian9 · « **Reply #5 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:42:37 PM »

Let me pose how I see it. Don't consider it an official ruling yet - wait till others chime in to support/reject it.

Chariot of Fire was active when the initial battle began. I assume here it was a rescue attempt. It names "following your rescue attempt" as an ongoing ability. Ongoing abilities must be negated in order to not go into effect. A New Beginning is played - and no negate is played. A New Beginning ended the battle (which was a rescue attempt) and turn, and allowed the player to start a new turn. At the end of the original battle, Chariot of File completes its ability and shuffles Heroes from the discard pile into the draw pile. I see the Heroes being shuffled into the draw pile at the same time that the other cards are to be shuffled by A New Beginning. It does not matter where Chariots of Fire currently is sitting.

I believe it works simply because it was an ongoing ability that was never negated. The same has been true of Chariots of Fire was discarded during a battle (but not negated) - it still would allow the holder to shuffle Heroes into the draw pile.

Mike

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #6 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:47:40 PM »

Is "following your rescue attempt" considered an ability? It isn't what the card actually does. I always thought CoF was a shuffle ability, which is instant.

frisian9 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:52:47 PM »

"following your rescue attempt" is a trigger that allows the SA it is associated with to be activated. A trigger is like taking the safety lock off a switch - it allows the switch to work. This particular trigger says IF shuffle is activated (there was a rescue attempt) and WHEN it is to be activated (after the battle).

Mike

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #8 on:** August 16, 2009, 04:56:45 PM »

But is after battle during or after battle resolution? Is it is after, Chariots can't shuffle with ANB - it would not have been triggered yet.

frisian9 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 16, 2009, 05:16:10 PM »

How can you start a new turn if you didn't complete the battle that existed? Perhaps I have to imply a resolution (like stalemate) since everyone is being shuffled. However, there must be an end of battle since there was a battle. It doesn't go poof, does it? We don't believe it poof.

Mike

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2009, 06:48:24 PM »

I've been re-examining this and I would like to say that if CoF can activate, doesn't that mean playing ANB with Gifts of the Magi active = a 16 card handwhen the new turn starts?

SirNobody · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:00:24 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on August 23, 2009, 06:48:24 PM

I've been re-examining this and I would like to say that if CoF can activate, doesn't that mean playing ANB with Gifts of the Magi active = a 16 card handwhen the new turn starts?

There is an implied "end the battle" ability on A New Beginning, because as Mike said you can't start a new turn unless you end what's going on in the current one. The current ruling is that the implied "end the battle" ability comes before the all players draw 8 ability, thus the draw 8 happens after the lingering effect of Hidden Treasures has worn off. Although based on the wording on the card I can see the validity of an argument the other way.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:27:41 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on August 23, 2009, 07:00:24 PM

...the draw 8 happens after the lingering effect of Hidden Treasures has worn off.

You mean CoF?

SirNobody · « **Reply #13 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:38:44 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: BubbleBoy on August 23, 2009, 07:27:41 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on August 23, 2009, 07:00:24 PM
...the draw 8 happens after the lingering effect of Hidden Treasures has worn off.
You mean CoF?

Nope, I mean Hidden Treasures. At the end of battle resolution lingering effects from the shuffled artifacts fade. Chariot of Fire's effect happens during battle resolution, which is before the end of battle resolution, so it happens before the lingering effects fade thus it works. The draw 8 (which would trigger Hidden Treasures and allow for starting the next turn with 16 cards) happens after the end of battle resolution, so it happens after the lingering effects fade and thus it doesn't work.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #14 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:47:06 PM »

COUGH COUGH Gifts of the Magi COUGH COUGH

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #15 on:** August 23, 2009, 07:57:38 PM »

Yeah, Hidden Treasures has an instant ability that activates at the beginning of the battle, so you must be thinking of something else.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2009, 09:31:20 PM »

Like maybe...

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on August 23, 2009, 07:47:06 PM

COUGH COUGH Gifts of the Magi COUGH COUGH

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #17 on:** March 20, 2011, 02:48:23 PM »

Bump. this came up just now and we need to solve this before another tourney comes up soon over way

Gabe · « **Reply #18 on:** March 20, 2011, 02:57:38 PM »

Quote from: Bryon on July 21, 2006, 01:13:45 PM

A New Beginning - If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn.

Since this question came about ANB received it's 2nd errata which really clears all this up. Just like Forgotten History and Wonders Forgotten, ANB ends the battle. That means as part of resolving the card you complete battle resolution.

Are there any characters left in battle? If yes, determine who won.
Are there any souls left in play? If yes, determine if one was rescued.
Was Chariot of Fire active? If yes, shuffle Heroes into the deck.
Was Gifts of the Magi active? Doesn't matter, the phase ended before cards were drawn and it's no longer in play so the ability is done.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #19 on:** March 20, 2011, 02:59:50 PM »

Also: Rain Becomes Dust.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #20 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:03:52 PM »

Loving those first two questions Gabe

Gabe · « **Reply #21 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:07:07 PM »

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on March 20, 2011, 03:03:52 PM

Loving those first two questions Gabe

I was thinking of the wonder twins from Austin when I wrote it.

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 20, 2011, 02:59:50 PM

Also: Rain Becomes Dust.

If you apply this to RBD what do you come up with?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #22 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:13:37 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 20, 2011, 03:07:07 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 20, 2011, 02:59:50 PM
Also: Rain Becomes Dust.

If you apply this to RBD what do you come up with?

Epic pwnage with CTR. My idea for Naz abuse was ruined, so this is all I've got.

crustpope · « **Reply #23 on:** March 20, 2011, 03:16:17 PM »

Rain becomes dust would not be active during the draw phase of the new turn. Only if you cold protect RBD from shuffle could you end up with 8 cards and watch them d/c the top 8 cards from their draw pile.

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #24 on:** March 20, 2011, 09:31:54 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on March 20, 2011, 02:57:38 PM

Quote from: Bryon on July 21, 2006, 01:13:45 PM
A New Beginning - If making a rescue attempt, remove this card from the game to shuffle all cards in play, set aside areas, and hands into decks. End the battle. All players draw 8. End the turn. Begin a new turn.

Since this question came about ANB received it's 2nd errata which really clears all this up. Just like Forgotten History and Wonders Forgotten, ANB ends the battle. That means as part of resolving the card you complete battle resolution.

Are there any characters left in battle? If yes, determine who won.
Are there any souls left in play? If yes, determine if one was rescued.
Was Chariot of Fire active? If yes, shuffle Heroes into the deck.
Was Gifts of the Magi active? Doesn't matter, the phase ended before cards were drawn and it's no longer in play so the ability is done.

So you completely end the battle and then you do everything associated with the battle ending and then you shuffle in from ANB?

News:

Author Topic: ANB and Artifacts (Read 12117 times)

Rawrlolsauce!

Rawrlolsauce!