Author Topic: Championship - Jacob or Susanna (Read 8358 times)

JonathanW · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2011, 04:33:09 PM »

I vote Jacob

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #26 on:** March 28, 2011, 04:33:43 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on March 28, 2011, 01:50:47 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 28, 2011, 01:48:03 PM
It probably should have been Thad...but then again, it should have been Purdue...but I'm rooting for the one who beats those people! Go VCU and Susy!
My playgroup made brackets, and one of our guys voted against Thad (even though he had him winning that round) so that the rest of us wouldn't get the points. Thus, that particular vote wasn't decided by who was the better hero, but a bracket I decided to set up. So, I apologize to the greater Redemption community.

I consider it my fault. I was constantly switching votes in order to keep it tied so that Thad wouldn't win.

Quote from: Bryon on March 28, 2011, 02:44:16 PM

Captain probably would have beaten Thad. Then again, I was sure that Captain would beat Susanna.

No.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #27 on:** March 28, 2011, 04:49:19 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 28, 2011, 01:05:33 PM

Prof, the main problem with your point system is that all of the points are the same. Here's how it should be:

That's a fair criticism. Let's go back and look a little closer.

Natural brigade: Disciples, TGT, Z-temple, Genesis, Angels, Prophets, Red Warriors, Judges.
Susanna = 7 pts
Jacob = 5 pts

Splashability:
Susy can't be splashed...at all = 0 pts
Jacob is good in old school speed and FBTN and Angels = 3 pts

Versatility:
Susy helps offense by drawing good cards faster (only 1 thing, but great) = 2 pts
Susy helps defense by hiding LSs on the bottom (only 1 thing, but great) = 2 pts
Jacob helps offense by ignore, CTB, BTN, discard (4 things, but counterable) = 4 pts
Jacob helps defense by stealing sites (great, but site lock is dead) = 1 pt

Initiative:
Susy has 1 offense = 4pts
Jacob has play pre-block = 5pts

Raw power:
Susy w/o GE MIGHT draw one = 1 pt
Jacob w/o GE can band to someone/s ftw = 3pts
Susy w/o GE or other characters = 0 pts
Jacob w/o GE or other characters = 0 pts

Susy=16
Jacob=21

I still say that Jacob is a far better hero.

Crashfach2002 · « **Reply #28 on:** March 28, 2011, 05:16:23 PM »

Told you that whoever won between Susanna & Thad would win the whole thing!

Bryon · « **Reply #29 on:** March 28, 2011, 05:35:56 PM »

"Which is the better hero" means different things at different times in the game. Often, The Strong Angel is far better in the first 2-3 turns of the game than Captain, who is better than Jacob, who is better than Susanna, who is better than Thad.

In the endgame, the rating is pretty close to the exact reverse.

The M · « **Reply #30 on:** March 28, 2011, 05:50:08 PM »

Quote from: tripleplayJo2 on March 28, 2011, 04:33:09 PM

I vote Jacob

He should be your worst favorite!

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #31 on:** March 28, 2011, 07:17:27 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on March 28, 2011, 04:49:19 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 28, 2011, 01:05:33 PM
Prof, the main problem with your point system is that all of the points are the same. Here's how it should be:
That's a fair criticism. Let's go back and look a little closer.

Natural brigade: Disciples, TGT, Z-temple, Genesis, Angels, Prophets, Red Warriors, Judges.
Susanna = 7 pts
Jacob = 5 pts
I thought this was about brigades, not themes. If you throw in themes, than Job is the main blue theme. And you have judges instead of samaritans? Samaritans are better than judges (and better than genesis). I'd definitely put red above genesis. The meta has changed a lot with disciples...
Splashability:
Susy can't be splashed...at all = 0 pts
Jacob is good in old school speed and FBTN and Angels = 3 pts

Versatility:
Susy helps offense by drawing good cards faster (only 1 thing, but great) = 2 pts
Susy helps defense by hiding LSs on the bottom (only 1 thing, but great) = 2 pts
Jacob helps offense by ignore, CTB, BTN, discard (4 things, but counterable) = 4 pts
Jacob helps defense by stealing sites (great, but site lock is dead) = 1 pt
I agree with this.

Initiative:
Susy has 1 offense = 4pts
Jacob has play pre-block = 5pts
Conditional preblock. And once they do block, Jacob gets owned with initiative, whereas Susy will probably play as many enhancements as she likes...

Raw power:
Susy w/o GE MIGHT draw one = 1 pt
Jacob w/o GE can band to someone/s ftw = 3pts
Susy w/o GE or other characters = 0 pts
Jacob w/o GE or other characters = 0 pts
Jacob MIGHT be able to band with someone's character. If nobody has silver out, tough. Plus, Susy's ability wins games, not just battles.

Susy=16
Jacob=21

I still say that Jacob is a far better hero.

I still say that Susy is a far better hero.

Mr.Hiatus · « **Reply #32 on:** March 28, 2011, 11:56:20 PM »

I completely disagree that Job is the main blue theme. Anyway I voted for Jacob. Susanna is great, especially in type 1 because she hides lost souls, well first that takes having a good bit of N.T. females out in play, not too hard, but secondly it is easy to generate lost souls in type 1. She has great initiative, but Jacob can play pre-battle, or band. He doesn't require an enhancement, but he can make it btnb, steal a site, ignore, or ctb, just stating the main ones here. Without an enhancement Susanna gets KO'ed, she can't mutual destruction or anything, and her main enhancement to play is easily countered by Cov w/ Abraham. So saying Jacob's ability is easily countered, well what ca you play on Susanna? Blue has more battle winners/versatility than white in that aspect by far. Yes Susanna can search and possibly find a dominant, blue has Abraham's Descendant, Pillar at Bethel or whatever it's called, that can get and get back very crucial cards. Jacob can also be used in more than one deck, Susanna can only go in a N.T. female deck. Also once you deck out her ability is useless, Jacob's can always be used.

Quote

If Susy doesn't have any enhancement support, she can pretty easily grab it, and possibly win the game by looking for Soggy or an enhancement
2 points Susy

You are putting way too much emphasis on just grabbing one card. Having only one card and your hand and attacking, when it's probably negateable knowing white, and saying you can win the game?

Quote

If Jacob doesn't have any enhancement support, he has to band to Captain...and if there isn't Captain, then he's basically worthless
1 point Jacob

You can say this for any hero in the game. This is the most non valid point ever made. Almost any hero you can say, if he doesn't have enh support he's useless.

Quote

If Susy doesn't have any character or enhancement support, she's worthless.
0 points

Quote

If Jacob doesn't have any character or enhancement support, he's worthless
0 points.

Once again, very bad reason for not giving any points.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #33 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:04:38 AM »

I was going off of Prof's points. For me, it pretty much comes down to brigade and usefulness in the brigade.

And what I meant by winning games was grabbing Son of God or NJ. I also lost to Gabe once because he grabbed the 2 Liner (I'll never forget that game...plot ripped, no NJ played, and half of the 2 liner rescued...4-5...at Nats...)

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #34 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:45:37 AM »

I'm surprised EITHER of these guys made it to the championship round. I think all the FbtN heroes are better than Jacob. And Thaddeus is head and shoulders better than all of these guys, which is why I voted for Jacob, since I still don't think Susanna should have made it past the inter-brigade round against Thaddeus.

The Guardian · « **Reply #35 on:** March 29, 2011, 12:55:56 AM »

It would be interesting to simply have everyone submit a secret vote on who they think the best Hero in the game is.

I would be willing to compile such a tally if people want to PM me their votes.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #36 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:00:49 AM »

Thad would win it, hands down.

Susy would probably win second best hero though.

Captain would win third.

Moses or TSA would win fourth, with the fifth being the other.

Asahel might make a running for top 5 too...

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #37 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:23:16 AM »

^Seeing some of the opinions expressed, we'd probably see Susy and Phin in like 12-15 and the likes of Jacob and POC near the top

. That being said I voted for Lois Lowry.

soul seeker · « **Reply #38 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:24:02 AM »

If Thad wins the "secret vote" then we have a lot of Redemption players who can't think past their nose. The latest flavor does not automatically mean best. Frankly, I'm glad Thad didn't make it any further than he did. Honestly, I voted against him every time because I think he is over-hyped. Does he need counters, sure and the playtesters have promised it. Is he the best...I think not.

Seriously, I remember when people used to complain how "broken" U&T was and a short 2 years later how often is that card actually used let alone talked about?

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #39 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:40:02 AM »

I never thought U&T was broken. Powerful, yes, but not broken.

Thad is definitely the best in T2. FWIW, I didn't vote for Thad in the secret ballot.

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on March 29, 2011, 01:23:16 AM

^Seeing some of the opinions expressed, we'd probably see Susy and Phin in like 12-15 and the likes of Jacob and POC near the top . That being said I voted for Lois Lowry.

I had Lois Lowry at third. I really wanted to give that hero higher, because it's definitely my favorite. Best though? Ehh.

Carl deuty · « **Reply #40 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:11:06 PM »

Susanna is the bomb because she can help your defense- magicians and demons

stefferweffer · « **Reply #41 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:38:09 PM »

I have mixed feelings on this whole thing. It seems to me that so many of these heroes' special abilities are awesome BUT are contingent on so many other things. Jacob is less contingent than Susanna, but the odds of either one of the "finalists" generating a first turn successful rescue attempt is so slim. Thaddeus is that way too.

Also, I didn't see a specification for Type 1 or Type 2. Since 99% of my Redemption experience is Type 1, I'm likely to have very different answers than others.

But for me personally I think of a good hero as one who can get a lost soul on the first turn using only themself, and usually being useful for the rest of the game. There was a neat thread a couple months back called "Your dream hand", asking what 8 cards you'd like to have in your opening hand. Ironically most of the answers in that thread were NOT Jacob or Susanna, because they are weak without "support" - Angels to band to or Gen enhancements to play in Jacob's case. Lots of NT heroes to add to "X" in Susanna's case. But Susanna rescues two very common lost souls that Jacob can't touch too.

For first turn wins some are just hard to beat. Obviously all the FBTN heroes of course, but especially Warriors COTH (because he is 10/10 AND cannot be captured by Unholy Writ or targeted by those "human hero" abilities) or my favorite, Warriors The Strong Angel, again for his big numbers and "angel" status, Unholy Writ can't touch, AND can rescue both the First Round Protect and NT Only lost souls.

Other good first round heroes are Phinehas 12/8 cannot be captured (and a popular CBN battle winner that most people fear), and NT Michael, 12/8 Angel with access to several lost souls and CBN enhancements. Early banding chains can be tough to beat too, like Claudia, gold Simeon, Asahel, Tribal Elder, etc.

Anyway, I just wanted to point out, as others have, that neither our finalists nor the ever-popular Thaddeus are cards that I would consider all that helpful in my opening hand of a Type 1 game.

This is a neat idea. Are we doing one for evil characters next?

soul seeker · « **Reply #42 on:** March 29, 2011, 01:49:54 PM »

Just a note on the reality of life that this past college basketball tournament has highlighted...the best team does not always win. In the case of these heroes, the best hero does not always win.

Also in regards to redemption heroes, bad match-ups took out some great contenders early. It was unfortunate, but I think it added some fun to what was going on. For me, some of the most fun in this pretend tournament I had was debating/politicking with Ring Wraith for Jacob against Moses. I didn't take it too serious and it was a good stress release.

Just my n00bish thoughts.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #43 on:** March 29, 2011, 02:38:12 PM »

That was really fun.

I switched my vote to Lois Lowry.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #44 on:** March 29, 2011, 02:44:05 PM »

Were the Heroes seeded? Or was it just arbitrary matchups?

soul seeker · « **Reply #45 on:** March 29, 2011, 02:58:50 PM »

Quote from: TheHobbit13 on March 29, 2011, 02:44:05 PM

Were the Heroes seeded? Or was it just arbitrary matchups?

They were seeded by the entries of the players.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #46 on:** March 29, 2011, 02:59:48 PM »

Perhaps next year the elders should seed them.

STAMP · « **Reply #47 on:** March 29, 2011, 05:01:27 PM »

Use double elimination.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #48 on:** March 29, 2011, 05:25:42 PM »

Next year Lois Lowry should win.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #49 on:** March 29, 2011, 06:17:53 PM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on March 29, 2011, 05:25:42 PM

Next year Lois Lowry should win.

I can't say for sure who will win next year, but I know that there will at least be a few more Heroes invited to the dance.

Some of them might even make a Final Four appearance.

News:

Poll

Which is the better Redemption hero?

Author Topic: Championship - Jacob or Susanna (Read 8358 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Rawrlolsauce!

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

TheHobbit13

TheHobbit13

Warrior_Monk