Author Topic: What Do You Want in K/L?  (Read 1125 times)

Offline Sean

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2021, 03:15:23 PM »
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It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2021, 04:11:44 PM »
+1
It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.

The problem with sites in starter decks and for new players is itís more than a site lock issue as there are more complex rules involving their use:  you can put a soul in it but if the site is discarded the soul isnít; you can put a site in battle to give Site access during a rescue but it has to come from territory and not hand, and it canít go into battle if a soul is in it already; it has neutral brigades and not good brigades.  This is too much to explain in a rulebook and when teaching the game for one card that really doesnít do much for learning the game; it only adds unnecessary complexity for new players.  Additionally, you canít use sites in sealed deck play (in regards to putting souls into them) so it would be a dead card if it was a meek site. If it was a site with an ability thereís a 50% chance itíll make the deck cut.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 04:17:34 PM by Watchman »
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2021, 07:51:50 PM »
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It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.

The problem with sites in starter decks and for new players is itís more than a site lock issue as there are more complex rules involving their use:  you can put a soul in it but if the site is discarded the soul isnít; you can put a site in battle to give Site access during a rescue but it has to come from territory and not hand, and it canít go into battle if a soul is in it already; it has neutral brigades and not good brigades.  This is too much to explain in a rulebook and when teaching the game for one card that really doesnít do much for learning the game; it only adds unnecessary complexity for new players.  Additionally, you canít use sites in sealed deck play (in regards to putting souls into them) so it would be a dead card if it was a meek site. If it was a site with an ability thereís a 50% chance itíll make the deck cut.

Really it comes down to which step is a player more likely to drop the game at, whether they see too many intricate abilities in the starter deck or if they see too many new things when they start playing the games after the starter deck. Both artifacts and sites have rules that aren't on the card and a new player is going to need to know if they're going to play regularly, so it might be better to explain them right away, even if it increases the complexity of the Starter Deck, although if it's too much it might be a good idea to have a "First Game" deck, where you maybe have a basic rules and stripped down decks (either have 30 card decks that are literally designed to show the basics of the game) and then you add the rest of the cards for the more complex game that shows more of the game.
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Offline Red

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2021, 09:18:01 PM »
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Here are my suggestions:

- One brigade for offense and defense; or, if there are two, use more multi-brigade enhancements that work for both brigades.
- Include one simple fortress for each deck
- Consider adding Upkeep phase, but keep the abilities that interact with it simple (no counters; only cards like, Each upkeep, you may do X)
- Use a few dual-alignment cards, more specifically enhancements.  These are easy enough to understand how they work, and adds value and versatility to starter decks (and are common card types in competitive play)
- Artifacts are tricky sometimes, but I feel a simple one would be warranted, such as an ability like how Four Drachma Coin works
- Stay away from sites, covenants and curses, as these are a little more complex and, like Joe said, there's a site lock issue
- Keep warrior class and weapon class, as well as territory class (enhancements).  I would stay away from territory class characters as these tend to be a bit more complex, particularly when they enter battle and come back the ability re-activates
- I think star abilities are good and easy enough to understand, just limit them, and don't use cards that say "you may activate the star ability..."
- A Reserve is needed; just keep it at 5 cards
- Stay away from modifiers.
- Add abilities like "Negate an evil card" to deal with cards like Ishbibenob b/c there are currently no ways to negate Ish when he uses his discard ability on a Hero strength 10 or greater.
- Stay away from interrupts and stick with negates.  Interrupts are more confusing.
- Introduce neutral cards as an alignment and have abilities that target them, particularly if artifacts are going to be incorporated and if there will be more soul abilities
- Use more souls with abilities but keep those abilities simple enough so that the new player doesn't need to keep up with them.  For example, maybe have most of them be they gain an immediate benefit when they're drawn, while only having a couple with a pending trigger when they're rescued, etc. 
- Introduce the meek key word
- Have meek souls on one starter deck with abilities that benefit from having them so as to off-set the abilities one gains with having souls with abilities.

Having used E/F starter decks when I was first introduced to Redemption years ago, and having used I/J decks and taught lots of people with the I/J decks, I feel the I/J decks are just right for teaching the game, so continue this theme with K/L but add a few more cool features/card types to keep players interested.  DO NOT go back to how E/F was with its complex rulebook, modifiers, etc.  That was quite overwhelming and I simply didn't understand how to play the game as it was too complex for new players.
This was a stellar set of ideas. I would add one thing, no more negate and discard last. That really hinders the flow of the battles in I/J with the new SI rules and it also is another thing that furthers the attitude that in Redemption, numbers don't really matter.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2021, 06:42:28 AM »
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@Red Thatís a good point but I believe they had negate the last because some of the enhs in I deck (the black weapons) removed themselves from play in order to remove the targeted character from play. It would be confusing if you say negate an enh and itís no longer in play to negate, so the negate the last wording helps simplify those interactions. So if they stay away from enhs that remove themselves then that wording wonít be necessary. Also, that wording also kills SI scenarios where you play a negate enh to stop the removal, then your opponent plays an enh and negates your negate. Now you canít try and negate the removal because the negate your last wording only targets the opponentís negate.

Iíd also add to my initial list more soul gen is needed.
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Offline Sean

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2021, 08:06:40 AM »
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It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.


The problem with sites in starter decks and for new players is itís more than a site lock issue as there are more complex rules involving their use:  you can put a soul in it but if the site is discarded the soul isnít; you can put a site in battle to give Site access during a rescue but it has to come from territory and not hand, and it canít go into battle if a soul is in it already; it has neutral brigades and not good brigades.  This is too much to explain in a rulebook and when teaching the game for one card that really doesnít do much for learning the game; it only adds unnecessary complexity for new players.  Additionally, you canít use sites in sealed deck play (in regards to putting souls into them) so it would be a dead card if it was a meek site. If it was a site with an ability thereís a 50% chance itíll make the deck cut.
I learned how to use Sites when I was like 13 years old from reading a card insert.  I don't think it's as complicated as you think.
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Offline Watchman

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2021, 09:50:19 AM »
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@Sean Under that logic there are other cards/abilities that could also be included in starters too that could be considered not as complex as one thinks. You may have understood it at 13, but others at that age or younger may not or may feel more overwhelmed with several card types and abilities.  The issue is that for new players there needs to be limited card types and abilities in starter decks. Thatís the whole point of them being starter decks. Sites arenít that important anyways and arenít used too often (as they used to be years ago) in constructed play vs other card types that are. And there is also the issue of sites in sealed deck play that would be virtually dead cards, particularly if theyíre meek. Ultimately itís up to the elders to include them or not.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2021, 08:34:46 AM »
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One way to offset the Sealed deck downside would be having cards that interact with the Site, similar to Enslaved by Egypt. Something like "Discard a Hero (or 2 if Babylon is in play)." Wouldn't necessarily need an ability and probably wouldn't be included in most Sealed decks unless enough cards interacted with it, but it at least wouldn't be completely dead.

I do think that the Starter decks could be made in such a way where you don't need to get into the nitty gritty details of how Sites work, like removing the Site while it's occupied or having neutral brigades. I do agree with Derek though that even the amount of seemingly simple rules needs to be limited as to not be additively overwhelming.

Regarding "negating last", you can play a "Negate an evil card" against an Enhancement that removes itself, so I think removing "negate last" abilities wouldn't necessarily mean we couldn't use cards to Lahmi's Spear, but I guess it has to be weighed as either an opportunity to teach more about special initiative or something that can be confusing early on.

Offline Arkon

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2021, 07:41:12 PM »
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Hello all, new player here. Really new.

I had read up and watched videos on various aspects of the game before playing my first match with the starter decks, so I went in knowing there was more to this game than what the starter decks have. I really like the game so far and look forward to implementing the advanced stuff a bit later on.

With that out of the way, here's some ideas I would like to see in future decks:

1. K and L maintaining their simplicity as starter decks for the really new players that need to be eased into a game as complex as Redemption. I and J did a fantastic job of demonstrating the really core basics.

2. A second set to go along with K and L (sold separately from the starter decks and/or as part of a big combo pack or something). The second set would be all the bells and whistles missing from the starter sets. Whether it's called M and N or K Advanced and L Advanced (or whatever haha), I would really like to see the starter deck line continue while introducing a different 2 deck set for the fresh players to graduate to when they are ready and willing to learn the advanced stuff. The advanced decks would come with their own rulebook explaining the added features from the starter decks while the starter rulebook would somehow make mention of the advanced decks.

tl;dr: I would really like to see the introduction of a 2 player advanced decks set while the 2 player starter decks continue mostly as is.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 03:06:15 AM by Arkon »