Author Topic: What Do You Want in K/L?  (Read 1127 times)

Offline TheJaylor

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What Do You Want in K/L?
« on: October 30, 2021, 01:31:01 AM »
+3
The I and J Starter decks are now 8 years old, which is hard to believe, and while no official announcement has been made and no plans are yet in the works (to my knowledge), it does seem like we are due for the next set of Starter decks within the next few years. Don't get me wrong, the I/J decks are certainly the best Starter decks to date and they I think they do a great job of introducing the game by limiting the complexity but still being enjoyable to play. However, being that they are fairly old and they're on a smaller card size than the rest of the cards in the new "Rotation" format, then it would make sense that we could see something new that could potentially even replace I/J in that format. (Tin 26 would probably also rotate out at point since it's the same size, but I'm sure we'd see a Scattered LR and we could probably lobby for a Foreign Wives one too.)

All that, plus recently teaching someone how to play, got me thinking, if I/J was so good, what could be done in K/L to make it better? There's space in this topic for new and experienced players alike. Experienced players have a good handle on the depth of the game and so may know how best to approach introducing abilities and card types, and newer players went through the process of learning the game more recently and thus can probably speak more to what was easy to pick up from the Starter decks, what was hard, and what were some things that you wish the Starters could have introduced but didn't or what, if anything, was too complicated for the first game.

So what would you like to see in new Starter decks as far as card types, abilities, classes, number of brigades, Reserve, etc.? What are your favorite things about I/J and what didn't you like? What other ideas do you have that could, on a Redemption product side of things, help people to learn the game? For example, perhaps a "Starter set" could come out alongside the starter decks that would just be a smaller Redemption expansion that would contain cards that relate to one or more themes contained in the Starters but increase the complexity slightly, perhaps with slightly more advanced abilites and card types. It may not be feasible or necessary, but it's one idea. Whatchy'all got for me?

To be clear, this is in no way official or necessarily going to be considered if/when new Starters come out, but the card creators are fairly involved with the community so it's likely someone will see your good ideas and maybe even make them happen. I'm sure this has been discussed before to some degree, potentially in a dedicated thread but certainly among various other discussions, but I thought it'd be fun to get people thinking and talking about it some more and have a good spot to reference the community's thoughts on what it takes to get someone into Redemption.

Offline Sean

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2021, 06:40:52 AM »
0
I was actually just thinking about this last night!  (or maybe this morning)

The biggest thing for me is that I hope there would actually be 4 starter decks.  I have few reasons that make sense to me but I know it may not be realistic from Cactus' point of view.

1. The reason for this is to make each deck primarily 1 brigade for offense and defense and/or to use them to revive a theme such as Daniel that got hurt by the new format.  My goal for these decks would be to give new players greater ease of playability of the cards being primarily 1 brigade as well as some basic versions of cards like the Daniel and Rack, Shack, and Benny while also reprinting cards like OT Michael and Gabriel. 

2. Having 4 decks would introduce a larger # of cards to the overall card pool, most being entry level, giving new players a better spring board into the game.  While cards like Son of God and most Los Souls would still be meek, the experienced players would benefit from the larger pool of cards as well.

3. Sealed deck would be way cooler and I would even hope that each of the 4 decks would be made so that there is almost a no brainer decision as to which expansion to take the 3 extra packs from so as to really get some fun and well synergized decks during sealed play.

4. Having more decks gives the ability to reprint Classic Sites and give them a simple special ability.  Same with Forts and Artifacts to some extent.  Kind of like a mass printing of Legacy Rare cards maybe?

Regarding what to put in them, I go back and forth on this but if there are 4 decks I could see each deck focusing on a 2-3 types of special abilities like a Bounce deck, a hand control deck, a Withdraw deck, etc...  However, I think it may be better to keep the style we currently have which has basic elements in each deck.  I would definitely stay away from 2 sided stuff in the starter decks.
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Offline robm

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2021, 07:52:54 AM »
0
I would really like to see the brigades that have not made it into starter sets yet; clay and teal. I was actually thinking about ideas for this a few months ago. Daniel heroes were already on my mind before they took a hit with rotation. Without going into too much detail since I would love to pitch my ideas to the powers that be, my Brigades would be white, teal ,evil Gold, Grey in one deck and clay, green, crimson and pale green in the other. I would prefer one good and one evil brigade color per deck but itís never been done that way. Most of these colors were absent from the last starter set so it would be nice to get them in it.

Offline Reth

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2021, 12:48:38 PM »
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So coming from what I like most on I/J starters there is definitely that battles are really fun and also I like that recursion and setup (Ruth theme) is part of it!
What I missed in I/J were missing artifacts.

As for new starters I'd like to see some new Doms in (next to some staples like SoG) and also artifacts. One idea would be to have the new starters build out of completely new cards not contained in any set so that also long term players would like to obtain them. Another idea I had was that a starter set like mentioned in the opening post would be awesome and allow for releasing starter decks for which particular expansions could be made giving them reserve access (one expansion) and star-abilities (another expansion)! If just starters would be made I'd like to have reserve and star abilities also in (next to arts and new Doms). Don't know whether this would be too challanging for newcomers but would assume they can handle it.
Since I do not have any experiences in this: How do other TCGs handle their new starter decks? Do they all card types and mechanics in those already?

Offline Gabe

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2021, 12:54:54 PM »
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This is a really great discussion! Iím excited to see what you all come up with.

I understand the draw of single brigade offense and defense. But do you think we miss the opportunity to teach players that brigades must match to play enhancements if we do that?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 05:05:45 PM by Gabe »
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Offline Sean

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2021, 02:04:44 PM »
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I understand the draw of single brigade offense and defense. But do you think we miss the opportunity to teach players that brigades must match to play enhancements if we do that?
I think there is some validity to this but I think the ease of playability would be more valuable at first.  It is possible to teach that through seeing other brigades in other decks.  Maybe the way to go would be 1 brigade for defense and 2 for offense?  That way it is easier to block but its ok to have to wait for offense to line up.  You could also have 2-3 Heroes/Good Enhancements that were both colors so they could go either way.

Separate topic, I would think that there should be no need for any reserve access cards unless the decks were released with 60 cards.  I think I'd rather stick to 50 though.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 02:08:15 PM by Sean »
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Offline Reth

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #6 on: October 30, 2021, 02:26:55 PM »
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Oh, and also some new souls would be nice of course.  :D

Offline sepjazzwarrior

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2021, 02:28:10 PM »
+2
I think it would be fun to see a theme among the pics of the lost souls in each deck, so you can more easily see which sould go to which deck.  Other than that i would just like to see all the characters have abilities, unless theres a meek theme going on. 

Offline Red

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2021, 04:33:44 PM »
+1
I think that new starters should teach more of the game than I/J did. I think Artifacts and Fortresses should be included in the new starters, along with a small reserve (5 cards), because missing the reserve entirely is just not a proper way to be introduced to the game. At this point, the reserve is a vital part of the game, and that shouldn't just change for any reason. One problem I've seen with the I/J starters is that they wear out quickly for people who play with them often, and I think some artifacts and a reserve would go a long way towards upping the customizability and replay value, therefore making it a more valuable and sought after product.

Addendum: Single Brigades plz.
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Offline Noah

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2021, 05:41:50 PM »
+3
I understand the draw of single brigade offense and defense. But do you think we miss the opportunity to teach players that brigades must match to play enhancements if we do that?

I don't have much experience teaching new players, but I would think that brigade matching is one of the most intuitive things to learn, especially if they have experience with other card games.

I think having two brigades for both offense and defense can be one of the most frustrating things for new players. "Yeah, I see you have [insert favorite character here], but you can't play [insert enhancement here] because the brigade doesn't match."

I feel like intentionally designing a deck to be inefficient for the sake of teaching someone about brigades isn't worth it. What's the first recommendation that is always made to new players about upgrading a starter deck? Pick a brigade you like for offense and defense and focus on having just one for each. I think it is more important to teach new players good deck building habits and not force them to fight the inefficiencies of their own deck than it is to teach them that brigades have to match by saying they can't do something during a game.

If several mono brigade starter decks where made, I think it would be just as easy and less frustrating to explain brigades by designing decks around one central theme / brigade and highlighting their differences when deck building as it would be to explain during a game that the cards in your deck can't be played the way you want because the deck was designed to be inefficient. Just because you can use cards of different brigades in a deck doesn't mean you should. I can't remember the last time I saw a true 50/50 split deck that did well. Most decks that do run more than one brigade make use of many overlapping multi brigade characters and enhancements that typically give much more than 50% coverage for each character and enhancement being played.

The one thing I appreciate about having two brigades for offense and defense is that you can be much more flexible with what you choose to focus on when playing sealed. But this could easily be remedied by designing sets (as has been done) by focusing on a specific subset of brigades that work well to draft with certain starter decks.
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Offline CtheTree

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2021, 06:54:51 PM »
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Here are my thoughts on K/L-

Brigades:


While I agree single brigade decks are the way to go when having someone start deck building, I am not convinced it is the way to go for starter decks.

In the last 2 years I have taught close to 20 people to play Redemption in my playrgoup using the I/J starter decks. Learning how to match brigades for enhancements with characters seems straightforward enough but time and time again it takes a game or two for new players I am teaching to figure out and remember this. It is really nice having multiple brigades for offense and defense in the starter decks to help new players learn this mechanic.

Additionally, after a few games with the starter decks I have found members of my play group have gotten to play around with the various brigades in I/J and they pick which two are their favorite and decide to build a deck focused on a single offensive brigade and single defensive brigade. Since all most of them own card wise is the I/J starter decks and a few booster packs, having numerous options available for them to choose from is really quite nice.

Ideas:

1) I agree with Red adding Artifacts and Fortresses/Sites into the starter decks is a very good idea. I have always found it rather cumbersome to teach someone how to play a game with the starter decks and then be like a cheesy infomercial "but wait, there's more!" and introduce Artifacts, Sites, and Fortresses later. I learned how to play the game myself with the G/H starter decks back in the day and also with the E/F starter decks. I loved how the E/F starter decks had both Artifacts and Sites. This was good. However, it would be great if Sites/Fortresses are included in K/L if they have abilities. The sites in E/F (understandably so due to site lock being a thing) did not have abilities.

2) I think having both characters that do and do not have abilities is good but it would be great to have "meek" support cards in K/L for those without special abilities.

3) A 5 card reserve is a really great idea. Once again I would like to see the K/L starter decks be able to be a basic introduction to all major aspects of the game of Redemption.

4) I would love to see cards that interact with the "set-aside" area, "side battle", and "toss" introduced in K/L. In seeking to offer a basic introduction to all major aspects of the game all three of these have often been missing and adds to the "but wait, there's more!" factor.

5) Star abilities are such a big part of the game now including them on some cards in K/L would be good in my mind.

6) I would not mind seeing one or two "cloud" class cards in K/L. This is a common question I get from new players since they cannot figure out what the "cloud" is on their card. 

Positives of I/J:

I really do appreciate how I/J have Warrior class characters and weapon class enhancements. This is excellent to be able to teach those mechanics. Also having Territory Class enhancements in I/J is a great thing.

I felt I/J did a great job introducing banding mechanics. The Ruth offense and Disciples offense really helped with that.

The negate effects of Selfish Kinsman and Ruth are very good to show the power of FBTN type abilities.

Having multiple brigades on offense/defense is a good thing in my mind since that learning to match brigades is important to learn and for some odd reason is often hard for newcomers to get a grasp on in my experience.

Conclusion:

Overall I would love to see K/L be a basic introduction to all the card types and major aspects of the game of Redemption. Overall I have enjoyed teaching the game to newcomers using I/J but I feel there are too many important card types and major aspects of the game that are not included in I/J. Naturally there are so many things to learn about Redemption that it always is a "but wait, there's more" experience for even competitive players who learn new things all the time about the game and how it works. That being said I do believe all the card types and major aspects of the game should be introduced at a basic level in the starter decks.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 07:17:10 PM by CtheTree »
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2021, 12:12:03 AM »
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The one thing I want in a new Redemption Starter Deck is a good Redemption Rulebook. I don't know if I have ever been happy with a Redemption Rulebook (although I have VERY high standards for what I consider a good rulebook, but I give more leeway in a collectable card game like Redemption where it might not be practical to put all the rules in the book).

I think the I/J rulebook was a fairly good rulebook for the I/J starter deck, which I think is what the writer was going for (although I can't remember the rulebook all that well right now), but unfortunately it didn't really do a particularly good job of teaching Redemption in any other circumstance. I think it probably needs to have either an appendix for additional basic rules that weren't used in the deck, or having a second rulebook for expanded rules (I realize that's what the REG is kinda for, but the REG isn't the best for learning the game) or you could do what a lot of games do where they have boxes that you can ignore for the first game, but expand on the rules or introduce more things.

Another idea is to have two different Starter Sets, if you still want one that's like the I/J deck, very simplified, and another one that's more complex and goes into more of the game (or you could just keep the I/J for that and have K/L be the moderate complexity deck that covers the majority of the game.
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Offline Reth

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2021, 01:13:49 PM »
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To get back on the topic again I'd not recommend to include already all mechanics into the starter decks. But if so I would split some of them up (e.g. one deck build around some cloud stuff, another one around some Warrior/Weapon stuff) while having others in both (like sites, arts, forts, etc.).

What I would not recommend for starters would be dual aligned characters (maybe even DAEs should be used sparely if at all). Also meekyfing stuff can maybe left out (since if you cannot reset these cards those would be a one time use only).

Offline Sean

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2021, 08:34:14 PM »
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So I've been thinking about the need for simplicity as opposed for the need to introduce all the different aspects of the game.  My thought is that the starters really should be starters so advanced concepts like the Reserve, Star Cards, and two-sided/DAC I feel don't belong in a starter deck.  However, I do see how that can make things annoying for those who are teaching the game to someone new and there is definitely a need to introduce the advanced parts of the game as well.  Which leads me this:
Another idea is to have two different Starter Sets, if you still want one that's like the I/J deck, very simplified, and another one that's more complex and goes into more of the game (or you could just keep the I/J for that and have K/L be the moderate complexity deck that covers the majority of the game.
Taking off of this, you have 4 decks in a Deluxe Starter Set.  The set comes packaged and with instructions as to clearly explain to start with the first pair of decks for a couple of games, then use the second pair of decks.  The first pair would teach the basic mechanics of the game such as going through each of the phases in the proper order, how to play each phase, resolving initiative, and winning the game.  The second pair of decks would introduce the more advanced aspects of the game such as the Reserve, Star cards, etc... Basically, the first pair of decks would have elements found in the game prior to I/J and the second pair of decks would have elements introduced after I/J.  This might also be a really good way to teach players the difference between Classic and Rotation eligible cards.

Separate Topic: If a starter deck is release that includes enough cards for a Reserve, I think it'd be good to some how label the cards so people know which ones are intended to be in the Reserve to start.  Obviously, they could be changed but marking them in some way would help with the learning aspect. 
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2021, 10:00:31 PM »
+1
Great thoughts and discussion guys. I think the "Deluxe" Starter set, like CS and Sean mentioned, is a cool idea to introduce concepts gradually rather than all at once. I was teaching someone lately who doesn't have a lot of experience with games like this and I think introducing every card type, Star abilities, and the Reserve in one game would have been overwhelming and potentially even offputting, but after one or two games with the Starter decks, we tried out a couple of Derek's old Challenger decks that are basically designed to be the next step after a Starter that still didn't have a Reserve, but had Sites, Forts, and Artifacts and I think that was helpful. I know some people pick up on these things quicker than others, so maybe they would be able to switch to the next set of decks in the "Deluxe" set sooner than others.

I also tend to agree more with CtheTree on the brigade topic. I think Gabe's point about brigade-matching is valid though not necessarily a driving factor because, like Noah said, brigade-matching is pretty easy once people get past the idea that the color of the card's border doesn't matter. Letting a player make the changes to try whichever of the brigades they like better in the Starter deck can be a nice way to get involved in improving the deck. Looking at MtG, most of the beginner packs that you can buy (as far as I know) have decks with two colors, which I think helps introduce the idea that certain cards can only be paid for with certain colors. Starters aren't meant to be competitive and, counter to Red's opinion, I don't think they're necessarily meant to be fun to play over and over again, but really just for teaching and moving on when you're ready. If you want to buy a pre-built deck that can be competitive and will have more variety in the games, then you can look at a posted list somewhere and buy those cards or check out the decks YTG has to offer. I could see the argument that Sealed deck could "wear out" with using the I/J decks, and I'm not the best to ask on that since I don't play Sealed deck all that often, but I always enjoy playing Sealed with the I/J decks since the packs introduce the variety. Perhaps that could be an additional argument in favor of "Deluxe" decks that will have a slightly more advanced pair of decks that could be used for Sealed to make things more interesting.

Regarding labelling Reserve cards for Starters, I don't know that there would be a good way to label them without making them unplayable or confusing, however, I think it would be a good idea to include a printed Reserve list for each deck that would come with it. That would introduce the idea that Reserve lists are required for tournaments and would make it easily adjustable.

If we were to stick with only one set of two decks, I think keeping classes like in I/J is good and I think adding one or two of the other card types/newer concepts, like maybe just Artifacts (no Covs or Curses) and Star abilities could be added. A five card Reserve sounds like it could be a good compromise for that too.

Offline Reth

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2021, 11:21:00 AM »
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As for introducing new concepts I'd like to make some advertisement for my proposal above: Introducing them by providing special expansions for starter decks like a Reserve Expansion, a Star Expansion etc. (and if we manage to make those expansions even viable for buying by not only starter deck players everybody would be target group - not only new players).

Offline STAMP

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2021, 05:04:44 PM »
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As a host and teacher of the game, I was a little overwhelmed by all of the new functionality that was added when I got back in the game the end of last summer.  It was a similar feeling that some newer players get when they attend their first tournament and meet more experienced players using more advanced card types.  Starter decks and playgroups have been great over the years in teaching players the basics of the game.  What if a K/L starter pack had the usual 50-card basic decks like A-J, but also include 12 extra "advanced" cards (6 for each deck) that provide an introduction to the more advanced card types.  The rulebook could lay out how to learn the basics of the game using the standard 50-card decks, but also include a section of how to add in the 6-extra advanced cards per deck to learn more advanced play.

Over the past few decades, many board and card games have included features and rules for basic and advanced play.  So it's quite common.  The new 112-card starter pack would definitely fit the bill for a great way to teach the game to newer players, both basic and advanced levels.  This would better prepare newer players for tournament play.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #17 on: November 02, 2021, 10:55:44 AM »
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I quite like the idea of having a basic deck with recommended upgrades. I think I prefer Stamp's idea of having a set included with the starter rather than selling separate upgrade packs - upgrading your starter deck with cards you unpack is half the point of a TCG, after all, and telling people to "buy this and swap cards A, B, and C for X, Y, and Z" kinda plays against that in my opinion.

I've been playing a Legacy game lately that has decks of cards that you add and remove from the main gameplay deck over the course of several games, and something like that could be an interesting "tutorial mode" built into the box. Start each player with a tiny deck with just a couple characters and enhancements of one brigade each, play to two souls, and then add Pack A to deck K and pack B to deck L to introduce a second brigade/dominants/neutral cards/reserve/whatever, and repeat until both players have a full deck and a grasp of the rules. And of course, if you know the game, you can just open all the packs at once and have two full decks ready to go.
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Offline Daniel the Creator

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #18 on: November 02, 2021, 02:56:59 PM »
+2
Marketing ideas for new starter decks Ė

1) VS theme decks based around central characters, like David vs. Goliath or Moses vs. Pharaoh

2) A special foil box-topper style card in each deck, something staple like Son of God.

3) A rule brochure instead of a rulebook, with simplified rules in a colorful and easy to understand layout.

4) Ditch the K/L alphabetic numbering, it won't make sense to new players who don't remember the A/B-I/J naming scheme.

5) Add brigade color names to the card template for color-blind players and people who might be confused about brigade colors like crimson vs. red/grey vs. silver, this is a big one for accessibility.

6) Display the brigades and themes of the decks on the packaging.

Offline Cnakeeyes

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #19 on: November 02, 2021, 09:21:07 PM »
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Have you ever thought about a scaling up starter deck. Like have the starters and then an expansion for it that makes it into 4 decks, so do the normal 2 good brigade and 2 bad in the base deck to teach the basics (brigade matching, attacking/blocking, turn structure) then in the expansion it divides them up based on a deck list provided and when that happens add a small 5 card reserve, maybe 2 artifacts per deck, a site, a fortress, some territory stuff to help teach the more advanced play.

This would allow for more variety in closed deck too, some in standard form and some advanced based on what the host wants to do. It would also help teach more before throwing players to the wolves.

Offline Reth

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2021, 11:22:31 AM »
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Getting back to the rule brochure: For Rotation format only or a general one (or maybe having 2 sections)?

Online The Schaefer

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2021, 12:37:23 AM »
+2
Starters are a tricky thing to balance. I think a lot of what a starter should look like comes down to who is the target demographic for the product?

At least for me starters should be an entry point for new players to be able to learn the game. In essence it should teach the basics that would get them through their first tournament.

I personally have liked the 2 brigades for offense and defense for a few reasons. It does show that color matters and offers variety for building off of it. Assuming the Starters are used for sealed it is nice that there is more than 1 brigade to build off of and thus makes packs in theory better considering more cards can mesh with something contained within the starters. I think that variety also is nice when new players pull cards from packs to build up their starter decks that way more of what they like or think is cool could be used in conjunction with that starter deck. Also when teaching large numbers its nice to be able to split the decks into 2 for a quicker, smaller introduction to the game like type half or type Raid/camp.

I do think there probably is a place for a different product like the "contender decks" that can be used to further build players along and get them into the more competitive side of things. Starter decks for me should have some generic good stuff that can be used somewhat competitive though.

I think a small reserve of cards would be good considering how reserves are a critical part of the game at this point.

I do think that "support" cards should be heavily limited as a whole. Im not a fan of sites for starter decks due to potential site lock issues. Arts and forts I think could be used sparingly though. Covenants and curses im questionable on. Particularly curses due to the snake icon.

I probably would include some more "popular" things out of the Bible for at least part of the decks. Particularly with kids familiarity and cool factor is often more important than the function of the cards.

On a more person note I'd like to see some reprints onto the new card face included.

I also would love to see a product that basically was sealed deck in a box. Similar to the gift tins of old but designed moreso to introduce and teach sealed.

Offline h20tor

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #22 on: November 05, 2021, 10:01:54 AM »
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Just tossing this out there (and I know it wouldn't be simple), but if a starter deck or decks could be combined to make a T2 deck, that would also be a great way to get some players into T2 that struggle creating the decks or getting cards for it.
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #23 on: November 05, 2021, 10:43:41 AM »
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Just tossing this out there (and I know it wouldn't be simple), but if a starter deck or decks could be combined to make a T2 deck, that would also be a great way to get some players into T2 that struggle creating the decks or getting cards for it.

Technically you can do this now, you would just have to replace the dominants with different cards.

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #24 on: November 06, 2021, 10:25:12 AM »
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Here are my suggestions:

- One brigade for offense and defense; or, if there are two, use more multi-brigade enhancements that work for both brigades.
- Include one simple fortress for each deck
- Consider adding Upkeep phase, but keep the abilities that interact with it simple (no counters; only cards like, Each upkeep, you may do X)
- Use a few dual-alignment cards, more specifically enhancements.  These are easy enough to understand how they work, and adds value and versatility to starter decks (and are common card types in competitive play)
- Artifacts are tricky sometimes, but I feel a simple one would be warranted, such as an ability like how Four Drachma Coin works
- Stay away from sites, covenants and curses, as these are a little more complex and, like Joe said, there's a site lock issue
- Keep warrior class and weapon class, as well as territory class (enhancements).  I would stay away from territory class characters as these tend to be a bit more complex, particularly when they enter battle and come back the ability re-activates
- I think star abilities are good and easy enough to understand, just limit them, and don't use cards that say "you may activate the star ability..."
- A Reserve is needed; just keep it at 5 cards
- Stay away from modifiers.
- Add abilities like "Negate an evil card" to deal with cards like Ishbibenob b/c there are currently no ways to negate Ish when he uses his discard ability on a Hero strength 10 or greater.
- Stay away from interrupts and stick with negates.  Interrupts are more confusing.
- Introduce neutral cards as an alignment and have abilities that target them, particularly if artifacts are going to be incorporated and if there will be more soul abilities
- Use more souls with abilities but keep those abilities simple enough so that the new player doesn't need to keep up with them.  For example, maybe have most of them be they gain an immediate benefit when they're drawn, while only having a couple with a pending trigger when they're rescued, etc. 
- Introduce the meek key word
- Have meek souls on one starter deck with abilities that benefit from having them so as to off-set the abilities one gains with having souls with abilities.

Having used E/F starter decks when I was first introduced to Redemption years ago, and having used I/J decks and taught lots of people with the I/J decks, I feel the I/J decks are just right for teaching the game, so continue this theme with K/L but add a few more cool features/card types to keep players interested.  DO NOT go back to how E/F was with its complex rulebook, modifiers, etc.  That was quite overwhelming and I simply didn't understand how to play the game as it was too complex for new players.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 10:30:31 AM by Watchman »
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Offline Sean

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #25 on: November 06, 2021, 03:15:23 PM »
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It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.
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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #26 on: November 06, 2021, 04:11:44 PM »
+1
It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.

The problem with sites in starter decks and for new players is itís more than a site lock issue as there are more complex rules involving their use:  you can put a soul in it but if the site is discarded the soul isnít; you can put a site in battle to give Site access during a rescue but it has to come from territory and not hand, and it canít go into battle if a soul is in it already; it has neutral brigades and not good brigades.  This is too much to explain in a rulebook and when teaching the game for one card that really doesnít do much for learning the game; it only adds unnecessary complexity for new players.  Additionally, you canít use sites in sealed deck play (in regards to putting souls into them) so it would be a dead card if it was a meek site. If it was a site with an ability thereís a 50% chance itíll make the deck cut.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2021, 04:17:34 PM by Watchman »
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Offline ChristianSoldier

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2021, 07:51:50 PM »
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It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.

The problem with sites in starter decks and for new players is itís more than a site lock issue as there are more complex rules involving their use:  you can put a soul in it but if the site is discarded the soul isnít; you can put a site in battle to give Site access during a rescue but it has to come from territory and not hand, and it canít go into battle if a soul is in it already; it has neutral brigades and not good brigades.  This is too much to explain in a rulebook and when teaching the game for one card that really doesnít do much for learning the game; it only adds unnecessary complexity for new players.  Additionally, you canít use sites in sealed deck play (in regards to putting souls into them) so it would be a dead card if it was a meek site. If it was a site with an ability thereís a 50% chance itíll make the deck cut.

Really it comes down to which step is a player more likely to drop the game at, whether they see too many intricate abilities in the starter deck or if they see too many new things when they start playing the games after the starter deck. Both artifacts and sites have rules that aren't on the card and a new player is going to need to know if they're going to play regularly, so it might be better to explain them right away, even if it increases the complexity of the Starter Deck, although if it's too much it might be a good idea to have a "First Game" deck, where you maybe have a basic rules and stripped down decks (either have 30 card decks that are literally designed to show the basics of the game) and then you add the rest of the cards for the more complex game that shows more of the game.
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Offline Red

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2021, 09:18:01 PM »
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Here are my suggestions:

- One brigade for offense and defense; or, if there are two, use more multi-brigade enhancements that work for both brigades.
- Include one simple fortress for each deck
- Consider adding Upkeep phase, but keep the abilities that interact with it simple (no counters; only cards like, Each upkeep, you may do X)
- Use a few dual-alignment cards, more specifically enhancements.  These are easy enough to understand how they work, and adds value and versatility to starter decks (and are common card types in competitive play)
- Artifacts are tricky sometimes, but I feel a simple one would be warranted, such as an ability like how Four Drachma Coin works
- Stay away from sites, covenants and curses, as these are a little more complex and, like Joe said, there's a site lock issue
- Keep warrior class and weapon class, as well as territory class (enhancements).  I would stay away from territory class characters as these tend to be a bit more complex, particularly when they enter battle and come back the ability re-activates
- I think star abilities are good and easy enough to understand, just limit them, and don't use cards that say "you may activate the star ability..."
- A Reserve is needed; just keep it at 5 cards
- Stay away from modifiers.
- Add abilities like "Negate an evil card" to deal with cards like Ishbibenob b/c there are currently no ways to negate Ish when he uses his discard ability on a Hero strength 10 or greater.
- Stay away from interrupts and stick with negates.  Interrupts are more confusing.
- Introduce neutral cards as an alignment and have abilities that target them, particularly if artifacts are going to be incorporated and if there will be more soul abilities
- Use more souls with abilities but keep those abilities simple enough so that the new player doesn't need to keep up with them.  For example, maybe have most of them be they gain an immediate benefit when they're drawn, while only having a couple with a pending trigger when they're rescued, etc. 
- Introduce the meek key word
- Have meek souls on one starter deck with abilities that benefit from having them so as to off-set the abilities one gains with having souls with abilities.

Having used E/F starter decks when I was first introduced to Redemption years ago, and having used I/J decks and taught lots of people with the I/J decks, I feel the I/J decks are just right for teaching the game, so continue this theme with K/L but add a few more cool features/card types to keep players interested.  DO NOT go back to how E/F was with its complex rulebook, modifiers, etc.  That was quite overwhelming and I simply didn't understand how to play the game as it was too complex for new players.
This was a stellar set of ideas. I would add one thing, no more negate and discard last. That really hinders the flow of the battles in I/J with the new SI rules and it also is another thing that furthers the attitude that in Redemption, numbers don't really matter.
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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #29 on: November 07, 2021, 06:42:28 AM »
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@Red Thatís a good point but I believe they had negate the last because some of the enhs in I deck (the black weapons) removed themselves from play in order to remove the targeted character from play. It would be confusing if you say negate an enh and itís no longer in play to negate, so the negate the last wording helps simplify those interactions. So if they stay away from enhs that remove themselves then that wording wonít be necessary. Also, that wording also kills SI scenarios where you play a negate enh to stop the removal, then your opponent plays an enh and negates your negate. Now you canít try and negate the removal because the negate your last wording only targets the opponentís negate.

Iíd also add to my initial list more soul gen is needed.
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Offline Sean

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #30 on: November 07, 2021, 08:06:40 AM »
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It has been said twice now that Sites would be bad because of being locked out but I do not see how having 1 site in each deck would hurt anything or cause a lock out.  If you make the Site the color of the opposing deck's offense, I really don't see how this would be an issue.  Sites are very basic to me, just play it and put a Lost Soul in it and if there is a special ability that's a plus. A starter deck is a perfect place for a meek Site in my opinion.  Especially one like Babylon or Jerusalem.


The problem with sites in starter decks and for new players is itís more than a site lock issue as there are more complex rules involving their use:  you can put a soul in it but if the site is discarded the soul isnít; you can put a site in battle to give Site access during a rescue but it has to come from territory and not hand, and it canít go into battle if a soul is in it already; it has neutral brigades and not good brigades.  This is too much to explain in a rulebook and when teaching the game for one card that really doesnít do much for learning the game; it only adds unnecessary complexity for new players.  Additionally, you canít use sites in sealed deck play (in regards to putting souls into them) so it would be a dead card if it was a meek site. If it was a site with an ability thereís a 50% chance itíll make the deck cut.
I learned how to use Sites when I was like 13 years old from reading a card insert.  I don't think it's as complicated as you think.
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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #31 on: November 07, 2021, 09:50:19 AM »
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@Sean Under that logic there are other cards/abilities that could also be included in starters too that could be considered not as complex as one thinks. You may have understood it at 13, but others at that age or younger may not or may feel more overwhelmed with several card types and abilities.  The issue is that for new players there needs to be limited card types and abilities in starter decks. Thatís the whole point of them being starter decks. Sites arenít that important anyways and arenít used too often (as they used to be years ago) in constructed play vs other card types that are. And there is also the issue of sites in sealed deck play that would be virtually dead cards, particularly if theyíre meek. Ultimately itís up to the elders to include them or not.
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2021, 08:34:46 AM »
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One way to offset the Sealed deck downside would be having cards that interact with the Site, similar to Enslaved by Egypt. Something like "Discard a Hero (or 2 if Babylon is in play)." Wouldn't necessarily need an ability and probably wouldn't be included in most Sealed decks unless enough cards interacted with it, but it at least wouldn't be completely dead.

I do think that the Starter decks could be made in such a way where you don't need to get into the nitty gritty details of how Sites work, like removing the Site while it's occupied or having neutral brigades. I do agree with Derek though that even the amount of seemingly simple rules needs to be limited as to not be additively overwhelming.

Regarding "negating last", you can play a "Negate an evil card" against an Enhancement that removes itself, so I think removing "negate last" abilities wouldn't necessarily mean we couldn't use cards to Lahmi's Spear, but I guess it has to be weighed as either an opportunity to teach more about special initiative or something that can be confusing early on.

Offline Arkon

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Re: What Do You Want in K/L?
« Reply #33 on: November 20, 2021, 07:41:12 PM »
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Hello all, new player here. Really new.

I had read up and watched videos on various aspects of the game before playing my first match with the starter decks, so I went in knowing there was more to this game than what the starter decks have. I really like the game so far and look forward to implementing the advanced stuff a bit later on.

With that out of the way, here's some ideas I would like to see in future decks:

1. K and L maintaining their simplicity as starter decks for the really new players that need to be eased into a game as complex as Redemption. I and J did a fantastic job of demonstrating the really core basics.

2. A second set to go along with K and L (sold separately from the starter decks and/or as part of a big combo pack or something). The second set would be all the bells and whistles missing from the starter sets. Whether it's called M and N or K Advanced and L Advanced (or whatever haha), I would really like to see the starter deck line continue while introducing a different 2 deck set for the fresh players to graduate to when they are ready and willing to learn the advanced stuff. The advanced decks would come with their own rulebook explaining the added features from the starter decks while the starter rulebook would somehow make mention of the advanced decks.

tl;dr: I would really like to see the introduction of a 2 player advanced decks set while the 2 player starter decks continue mostly as is.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2021, 03:06:15 AM by Arkon »