Author Topic: RIP CoL 2017-2018  (Read 3519 times)

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
RIP CoL 2017-2018
« on: April 09, 2018, 02:17:32 PM »
+1
Quote

Children of Light (errata) - The following errata is being issued to remove the abusive unlimited draw opportunity created by this card.
Quote
Protect good Enhancements on this Hero from opponents. Cannot be negated by a good card.




Ok fun over time to go write the rant thread.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 02:38:33 PM by Kevinthedude »

Offline Bobbert

  • Trade Count: (+8)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1773
  • The player formerly known as Thomas Hunter
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 02:27:14 PM »
+1
MRW I see the Wicked soul, Rubble and Dust, AND the removal of CoL's draw:
Spoiler (hover to show)

Honestly, though, these all look great. The Displeased City Blessing is a good solution.

And we finally get bans. The absolute madmen. Too bad TSC was printed - banning NJ at this point just increases the have/have not gap and people won't be happy if they ban their $100+ chase cards that are only two years old.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 02:31:55 PM by Bobbert »
ANB is good. Change my mind.

kariusvega

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 02:32:46 PM »
+1
Hahaha there are so many ways to draw all of your cards it's no big deal.. we are lucky we saw next to none of the counters which already existed at nationals 2017.. It's all good! Now people have to learn how to counter throne and mill lol

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 02:33:36 PM »
+3
MRW I see the Wicked soul, Rubble and Dust, AND the removal of CoL's draw:
Spoiler (hover to show)

Honestly, though, these all look great. The Displeased City Blessing is a good solution.

And we finally get bans. The absolute madmen. Too bad TSC was printed - banning NJ at this point just increases the have/have not gap and people won't be happy if they ban their $100+ chase cards that are only two years old.

I would gladly throw my TSC in a fire if it meant it and NJ were banned.

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+68)
  • *****
  • Posts: 10674
  • From Moses to the prophets, it's all about Him!
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Land of Redemption
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 02:39:25 PM »
+1
MRW I see the Wicked soul, Rubble and Dust, AND the removal of CoL's draw...

While you can look at the many "regardless of protect abilities" cards in FoM as view them as a CoL counter (and you'd be correct) that was never our sole intention. There have been a number of extremely powerful protected characters (usually Heroes) who have been dominant in the game for quite some time. A few non-CoL examples of things we wanted to take down a notch are Auto+Gideon, Thaddeus, and Isaiah+purple kings.

We've suspected for months that we would need to errata CoL. But first we tested CoL decks against decks using the new counters. We found the counters to be inadequate far too often. The game already has a good number of CoL counters but they suffer from the same problem as the new ones. The CoL offense sets up so fast that it has all the answers to your counters, often before you have the counter.

This is why we chose to remove the unlimited drawing, to slow an armor/fruit offense down enough to give opponents time to get to the answers they need. We believe the errata still allows CoL to function as we originally intended, as a strong Hero in an AoG or FotS offense. That offense is probably no longer top tier, but we didn't expect it to be last year either.
Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

Offline Red Wing

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
  • Set rotation shill
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2018, 02:46:12 PM »
0
MRW I see the Wicked soul, Rubble and Dust, AND the removal of CoL's draw...

While you can look at the many "regardless of protect abilities" cards in FoM as view them as a CoL counter (and you'd be correct) that was never our sole intention. There have been a number of extremely powerful protected characters (usually Heroes) who have been dominant in the game for quite some time. A few non-CoL examples of things we wanted to take down a notch are Auto+Gideon, Thaddeus, and Isaiah+purple kings.

We've suspected for months that we would need to errata CoL. But first we tested CoL decks against decks using the new counters. We found the counters to be inadequate far too often. The game already has a good number of CoL counters but they suffer from the same problem as the new ones. The CoL offense sets up so fast that it has all the answers to your counters, often before you have the counter.

This is why we chose to remove the unlimited drawing, to slow an armor/fruit offense down enough to give opponents time to get to the answers they need. We believe the errata still allows CoL to function as we originally intended, as a strong Hero in an AoG or FotS offense. That offense is probably no longer top tier, but we didn't expect it to be last year either.
Wicked doesn't hurt Cony because of Peace. But with the errata Cony is dead anyway.
Kansas City Discord: discord.gg/2ypYg6m

Offline Reth

  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 02:55:55 PM »
0
The CoL of Light errata I can understand somehow (has this massive drawing effect not been expected when the card has been created and playtested - this is a serious question, please don't take it offensive!). I also can understand the ban of 2/3 Liners since this makes keeping the time limits and achieving the game's goal more likely.
I'd propose the liners to be still allowed in casual plays if the players are OK with it.

But are all the other erratas and changes really necessary? IMHO those have been creating no problems so far at all - at least I did not read about any. Up to now every player at any game/tournament had to deal with it and did well.

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2018, 02:59:14 PM »
0
I'd propose the liners to be still allowed in casual plays if the players are OK with it.

You can always play the game however you want outside of official tournament categories. You can even play with your own made up rules at tournaments themselves in side categories like Type Half.

But are all the other erratas and changes really necessary? IMHO those have been creating no problems so far at all - at least I did not read about any. Up to now every player at any game/tournament had to deal with it and did well.

The Mayhem change was important for the health of the game. It needed to either be banned or given the errata that it was. The other cards were errata'd also because of their abuse potential with Mayhem. One of them in particular I believe is the core strategy of a formerly competitive Type 2 deck.

Offline Xonathan

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+30)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1363
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2018, 03:00:20 PM »
+3
The CoL of Light errata I can understand somehow (has this massive drawing effect not been expected when the card has been created and playtested - this is a serious question, please don't take it offensive!). I also can understand the ban of 2/3 Liners since this makes keeping the time limits and achieving the game's goal more likely.
I'd propose the liners to be still allowed in casual plays if the players are OK with it.

But are all the other erratas and changes really necessary? IMHO those have been creating no problems so far at all - at least I did not read about any. Up to now every player at any game/tournament had to deal with it and did well.

Have KariusVega use his Mayhem/Displeased Philistine deck on you lol.
Look to the Lord and his strength; seek his face always.
1 Chronicles 16:11

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 03:02:52 PM »
+1
I'd propose the liners to be still allowed in casual plays if the players are OK with it.

You can always play the game however you want outside of official tournament categories. You can even play with your own made up rules at tournaments themselves in side categories like Type Half.

But are all the other erratas and changes really necessary? IMHO those have been creating no problems so far at all - at least I did not read about any. Up to now every player at any game/tournament had to deal with it and did well.

The Mayhem change was important for the health of the game. It needed to either be banned or given the errata that it was. The other cards were errata'd also because of their abuse potential with Mayhem. One of them in particular I believe is the core strategy of a formerly competitive Type 2 deck.

Correct--the changes to the Evil Enhancements were due more to T2 abusive combos. While those combos were certainly possible in T1, they were much more difficult to achieve. There are many cards on the errata list that "don't cause issues" but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be there.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Red Wing

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
  • Set rotation shill
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2018, 03:11:38 PM »
0
The CoL of Light errata I can understand somehow (has this massive drawing effect not been expected when the card has been created and playtested - this is a serious question, please don't take it offensive!). I also can understand the ban of 2/3 Liners since this makes keeping the time limits and achieving the game's goal more likely.
I'd propose the liners to be still allowed in casual plays if the players are OK with it.

But are all the other erratas and changes really necessary? IMHO those have been creating no problems so far at all - at least I did not read about any. Up to now every player at any game/tournament had to deal with it and did well.
Have KariusVega use his Mayhem/Displeased Philistine deck on you lol.
Kevin got Hypocrisy+Mayhem off in 6/8 games at Nats with Cony.
Kansas City Discord: discord.gg/2ypYg6m

Offline Reth

  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2018, 03:21:05 PM »
0
Ok, understood - also the T2 topic (since I do not play T2 I am not familiar with the possible problems there - my bad, I must apologize).

Have KariusVega use his Mayhem/Displeased Philistine deck on you lol.
Kevin got Hypocrisy+Mayhem off in 6/8 games at Nats with Cony.

Ok, but if these have been so painful in the past maybe existent counters like Nazareth or similar will become more popular again or might get reprinted/created (since Nazareth also harms your search abilities)?

Offline Ironisaac

  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1662
  • 2070 Paradigm Shift Inbound
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #12 on: April 09, 2018, 03:22:32 PM »
0
Ok, understood - also the T2 topic (since I do not play T2 I am not familiar with the possible problems there - my bad, I must apologize).

Have KariusVega use his Mayhem/Displeased Philistine deck on you lol.
Kevin got Hypocrisy+Mayhem off in 6/8 games at Nats with Cony.

Ok, but if these have been so painful in the past maybe existent counters like Nazareth or similar will become more popular again or might get reprinted/created (since Nazareth also harms your search abilities)?

the issue is when they can pull off these insane, game changing combos before you can pull out any of the counters every game. that's why it needed to change. 
Some call me "Goofus"

Offline Reth

  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #13 on: April 09, 2018, 03:28:41 PM »
0
the issue is when they can pull off these insane, game changing combos before you can pull out any of the counters every game. that's why it needed to change.
But isn't the issue then the faster pulling off of these combos then the opponent's pull off of the counters? While I understand that the pull abilities are used to push your own "winning" progress ahead they can for my understanding be used in the same fast manner to get your counters out - at least from the pure theory and from game mechanics' perspective (making me remembering the LoR article "Knowing your role"). Or did I miss something

Offline Red Wing

  • Trade Count: (+5)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2378
  • Set rotation shill
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #14 on: April 09, 2018, 03:29:25 PM »
0
Ok, understood - also the T2 topic (since I do not play T2 I am not familiar with the possible problems there - my bad, I must apologize).

Have KariusVega use his Mayhem/Displeased Philistine deck on you lol.
Kevin got Hypocrisy+Mayhem off in 6/8 games at Nats with Cony.

Ok, but if these have been so painful in the past maybe existent counters like Nazareth or similar will become more popular again or might get reprinted/created (since Nazareth also harms your search abilities)?
Counters definitely exist, but the main problem with these kinds of combos is the overall power level. Also, the existence of Three Woes means that even the right counters won't always work. And you have to be fortunate enough to draw the counters first.
Kansas City Discord: discord.gg/2ypYg6m

Offline Reth

  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2018, 03:33:09 PM »
0
@Red Wing:
See my post above (seems we crossposted somehow).

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2018, 03:38:07 PM »
0
I'll post a decklist later that I believe to have one of the optimal pre-FoM defenses for defeating the CoL deck. I ran over a dozen simulated games against JD's decklist from Nationals and lost only once. I was going to start simulating against kevinthedude's list, but around that time we started discussing the removal of the draw from CoL so I shifted my focus elsewhere.

Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Gabe

  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+68)
  • *****
  • Posts: 10674
  • From Moses to the prophets, it's all about Him!
    • -
    • North Central Region
    • Land of Redemption
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2018, 03:41:40 PM »
+1
@Reth, the 3 evil enhancements that received errata could be used to create a situation where a player’s hand could be reduced to zero card, sometimes as early as the first turn of the game. But that’s not healthy on any turn.

When those cards were printed the restrict ability didn’t even exist. They were grandfathered into restrict based on the wording and how they interact.

We don’t like to errata cards. We don’t errata cards that don’t have several very experienced veterans agree that they need errata, and then work out how to best apply it. These would not have been issued if they weren’t absolutely necessary.
Have you visited the Land of Redemption today?

Offline Kevinthedude

  • Tournament Host
  • Trade Count: (+1)
  • *****
  • Posts: 1856
  • Yo
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #18 on: April 09, 2018, 03:44:14 PM »
+3
@The people saying "just run counters":

It's very easy to build a defense that hoses a CoL deck, the problem with it and with every other defense built to counter a specific strategy is that it requires you to make deck building decisions that leave you worse off against "normal" decks. In large tournaments this means that unless the CoL player gets an unlucky first pairing against someone running the suboptimal counter deck, the CoL player goes to top table and the counter deck goes to bottom table and they never actually play each other. This is how decks can be unheathily dominant even though they are technically counterable.

Other possibility is that everyone realizes that must play the suboptimal counters or they lose to CoL every time and then everyone is either playing CoL or a CoL counter. This does result in keeping CoL at bay even if no one plays CoL everyone has to run the counters or risk it coming back. This is called formating warping and is also unhealthy and a phenomenon that leads to bannings in most card games.

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #19 on: April 09, 2018, 03:52:32 PM »
0
+1 My goal with my decklist was to see if I could build a deck that performed well against both CoL and non-CoL decks. I felt it did so though more of the testing was done against CoL decks.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

Offline Reth

  • Trade Count: (+9)
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1275
    • LFG
    • East Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2018, 04:10:03 PM »
0
@Gabe, Kevinthedude, The Guardian and all others: Thanx for your patience, explanations and helpful insights! I really appreciate all your efforts you put into the game to push it forward and develop it further!

We don’t like to errata cards. We don’t errata cards that don’t have several very experienced veterans agree that they need errata, and then work out how to best apply it. These would not have been issued if they weren’t absolutely necessary.
Sorry, my intension was not to create the impression that all this comes out of nowhere or without being considered thoughtfully. I know that everyone involved, above all the elders, bring a lot of personal invest and deliberate input and contributions to the game. I am just asking all this and bringing up my questions out of my limited context and understanding - just to get more knowledge and insights!

Offline The Guardian

  • Playtester, Redemption Elder
  • Global Moderator
  • Trade Count: (+96)
  • *****
  • Posts: 12344
  • The Stars are coming out...
    • -
    • North Central Region
Re: RIP CoL 2017-2018
« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2018, 04:14:49 PM »
0
No worries Reth--we knew that these changes would create a lot of questions and discussions. We will definitely try to respond in a timely manner to questions and concerns. While we have spent considerable time discussing these changes, it's certainly possible there's something we missed. That was part of the reason we went ahead and made these announcements now (prior to the release of FoM) so that people could begin to acclimate to them and potentially point out problems.
Fortress Alstad
Have you checked the REG?
Have you looked it up in ORCID?

 


SimplePortal 2.3.3 © 2008-2010, SimplePortal