Author Topic: All it takes is a little effort... (Read 9186 times)

bluefrog1288 · « **on:** June 11, 2011, 01:27:49 PM »

Hello everyone.

This topic is for discussion of ideas on how to spread Redemption to the local communities and how to make Redemption grow.

I find it interesting that Redemption can make claims such as "2nd longest running CCG" or "it takes more strategy then popular games such as MTG and Yu Gi Oh!". But, the player base hasn't seemed to have grown that much in the 6 years sense I left and returned.

I could be completely wrong, but I don't think I am. I seem to recall a while ago(back in 2004) hearing something about Rob has incentive programs for spreading Redemption. Not sure to be honest.

Anyway, I think there are plenty of places we have yet to "tap" into. (Pun intended) And, this would be a great place to discuss serious ideas about spreading the Gospel through our game and spreading the word about Redemption.

Please do not fill up the first 8 pages of this thread quoting me and telling me how I may be wrong.

bluefrog1288 · « **Reply #1 on:** June 11, 2011, 01:37:32 PM »

Exhibit A: Large churches you may attend.

Now if you personally attend a church of a small congregation then I think it should be even easier to propose a FNR(Friday Night Redemption) night for the youth and adults of your congregation. The only hard part about a small congregation is the lack of people who might actually be interested in CCGs. Anyway, if you like myself, attend a large church such as a community church, baptist church, AoG, all those denominations who tend to have large congregations, I would be surprised if the various pastors/ministers are not open to at least hearing a pitch about Redemption. There are so many facets you can show them.

1. Educates people on the Bible.
2. Helps scripture memory.
3. Fellowship
4. Alternative to MTG and YGO

The list goes on. I do not think it would be to hard to organize a FNR night at your local church. Preparing a power point, bulletin printout, or publicly speaking at announcement time at your local church would be a great way to get the word out.

Please do not be offended of my comparisons to MTG or YGO, or borrowing their phrases such at FNR = FNM. The thing is, if something works when it comes to marketing, copy it.

lp670sv · « **Reply #2 on:** June 11, 2011, 02:08:14 PM »

You really want to get people involved in Redemption, one way would be to push it as a CCG first and a bible game second. this may seem counter intuitive but take me for example. I'm agnostic so when someone asked if i wanted to get involved in a christian card game I was meh. But I like CCGs and have no problem with it being bible based as long as its fun and organized, which it is. Yes, a big goal of Redemption is to spread the word of Christ but you quickly learn that people who don't believe in Christianity or aren't that enthusiastic about it won't jump in to something if it's presented to them as a bible game. Once you have them playing redemption, and hooked in to it not just like their first game or something, start telling them about the bible verses behind it. Why certain cards have the abilities they have, why each character is the type and brigade that it is, according to the bible. You now have a Redemption player, and a potential convert. It didn't work for me but I'm pretty darn stubborn and I like to form my own beliefs or lack there off based on my opinion and the respective scriptures rather then what people tell me they believe and why they believe it.

Also:Redemption requires more strategy then magic? What?

Edit: that someone was SomeKittens by the way

SomeKittens · « **Reply #3 on:** June 11, 2011, 02:18:40 PM »

Quote from: bluefrog1288 on June 11, 2011, 01:37:32 PM

The thing is, if something works when it comes to marketing, copy it.

I agree with everything you've said so far, but this is the most important thing. We can do our part, but Cactus NEEDS to market. No wonder they're having financial issues.

bluefrog1288 · « **Reply #4 on:** June 11, 2011, 02:28:42 PM »

I completely agree Kittens, although I know nothing of Cactus and there marketing/financial issues. This place is a board that the leaders of Cactus read on a regular basis, I hope. Why is it every time I go into a Christian bookstore the Redemption section consists of 2 or 3 of the latest starters and 5 unlimited boosters? Not sure, but this is not the place to complain about Cactus and how they run things. The only way we can affect that is through prayer. Which brings me to exhibit 2.

Exhibit 2: Prayer

Prayer is the single most important thing we can do as Followers of Christ. I am not going to take this time to dive into this ocean of discussion, but you know, I know, and God knows how this game can be used to fulfill the great commission. So pray, pray God gives us ideas on how to spread the Word and the word of Redemption. Pray he gives us willing ears for both.

Also, purely from the CCG standpoint. I couldn't agree more. It's a game first. Redemption is a tool that can be used to share Christ, but its a game first. And that people, is what will draw people in.

Ken4Christ4ever · « **Reply #5 on:** June 11, 2011, 02:47:36 PM »

Here's another thread with the same intention.

http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/off-topic/think-tank-for-redemption-activities-hosting-tips-ideas-etc/

We've been hosting a tournament January through October on the 3rd Saturday of every month for over two years now, and our group has grown from 3 to 20. Like the idea of FNR, consistency makes it easier for people to get involved.

I appreciate your enthusiasm and look forward to seeing you hosting tournaments and growing the group in your area!

Ken

bluefrog1288 · « **Reply #6 on:** June 11, 2011, 03:01:03 PM »

Does Cactus have any type of sponsorship type programs? I would be more then willing to pitch Redemption/FNR to different churches. The problem is I don't have the funds to purchase 20 starters decks, boosters, and what not to support an open draft or closed deck FNR tourney.

TheHobbit13 · « **Reply #7 on:** June 11, 2011, 03:07:53 PM »

Quote from: bluefrog1288 on June 11, 2011, 01:27:49 PM

"it takes more strategy then popular games such as MTG and Yu Gi Oh!".

I think you are right in sayng that that this isn't the most accurate comparison. Personally the fun and fellowship is my favorite part. Even if redemption played like go fish (nobody say a word) I would still play it. It is just an added bonus for that redemption is highly strategic.

That is great that you want to start up Redemption in your area. Your methodology, especially the prayer part, was encouraging to me. I'll pray that you have great success! Hopefully redemption will last many more years, and I think it will for the above reasons I mentioned. However, if it doesn't last much longer, I am sure people will still play casually and maybe even run tournaments. The meta might get old but hey its still fun right?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #8 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:31:19 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 11, 2011, 02:18:40 PM

I agree with everything you've said so far, but this is the most important thing. We can do our part, but Cactus NEEDS to market. No wonder they're having financial issues.

Actually, they'd be having more financial issues if they did market.

Because Cactus has very few employees, it is likely that no one currently at Cactus is trained in marketing. Because of this, the most effective way for Cactus to begin to market would be to hire a firm to do that. This is obviously extremely costly. After the firm is hired, you must develop a market strategy, which, honestly, is probably the most difficult part of this. There are two ways to market Redemption effectively; as a CCG alternative to MTG or as a CCG competing with MTG (MTG is simply an example; you can insert any CCG there). Based on my previous reading of literature Rob has produced, I would suggest he would be most likely to choose to market Redemption as a CCG alternative. By the very choice of doing this (please note I am NOT saying that this is a bad idea), Rob has caused the marketing campaign to be ineffective. Because Redemption as an alternative will only appeal to Christians, it becomes wasted to target any non-Christian, because they are not the primary audience (basically, if they play, that's awesome, but it's not a demographic where Redemption wants to thrive). Thus, any advertising and marketing would have to target primarily Christians unaware of Redemption. In the mainstream, this would probably be through sources such as TBN, CBN, KLOVE, etc.

Once this marketing has occurred, there are several issues to deal with:
1. How does an interested consumer get product? Family Bible Stores only sporadically carry Redemption. Without sure stocking, where does said advertising suggest purchasing occur? Is Cactus going to switch to primarily attempting to sell the game online?
2. How does Cactus combat generalizations about CCGs? One of the biggest obstacles to Redemption thriving within the Christian community is backlash to it being evil because it is a CCG, even thought it is bible based. How would an advertising campaign truly be able to combat this effectively?

Based on these issues in light of my marketing education, I can't forsee a situation in which Cactus would have any other outcome but lost money if they chose to market (unless the decision is made to market to anyone, which creates a much more interesting and complication scenario imo).

lp670sv · « **Reply #9 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:35:56 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 05:31:19 PM

Because Redemption as an alternative will only appeal to Christians, it becomes wasted to target any non-Christian

Guess I'm a wasted market? And suddenly the game has lost all its appeal. because you said it does.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #10 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:40:21 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on June 11, 2011, 05:35:56 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 05:31:19 PM
Because Redemption as an alternative will only appeal to Christians, it becomes wasted to target any non-Christian

Guess I'm a wasted market? And suddenly the game has lost all its appeal. because you said it does.

Not in the sense that Cactus wouldn't want non-Christians to play, but when Cactus, a small company, decides to spend on Marketing, it is very important to maximize the effect of the marketing. It's not a matter of whether or not non-Christians should play or not. But, objectively, who is more likely to play Redemption, a Christian or a non-Christian? You have virtually already said the answer.

Don't take it personally, it's just natural that when a small company chooses to spend money, they need to spend it wisely, and there is little data to suggest that non-Christians are just as likely to play as Christians - this isn't meant to diminish you, it's just meant to be realistic about what should occur.

lp670sv · « **Reply #11 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:44:13 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 05:40:21 PM

Quote from: lp670sv on June 11, 2011, 05:35:56 PM
Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 05:31:19 PM
Because Redemption as an alternative will only appeal to Christians, it becomes wasted to target any non-Christian

Guess I'm a wasted market? And suddenly the game has lost all its appeal. because you said it does.

Not in the sense that Cactus wouldn't want non-Christians to play, but when Cactus, a small company, decides to spend on Marketing, it is very important to maximize the effect of the marketing. It's not a matter of whether or not non-Christians should play or not. But, objectively, who is more likely to play Redemption, a Christian or a non-Christian? You have virtually already said the answer.

Don't take it personally, it's just natural that when a small company chooses to spend money, they need to spend it wisely, and there is little data to suggest that non-Christians are just as likely to play as Christians - this isn't meant to diminish you, it's just meant to be realistic about what should occur.

thats not really the case. I doubt 90% of the people who play magic or yu-gi-oh or any of the other CCGs believe that anything on those cards are real yet they still play them. If you push redemption as for christians only then you'll only get christians. But if you sell it as a CCG first, that just happens to be based on the bible then non christians will play. Yu-Gi-Oh is based off Egyptian religion yet plenty of people who obviously dont worship Rae play the game. Because its pushed as a CCG first. Obviously spreading the gospel is a goal of redemption but you cant do that if no one is playing it, so sell the game first, use it to teach second.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #12 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:45:34 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 05:31:19 PM

Because Redemption as an alternative will only appeal to Christians, it becomes wasted to target any non-Christian

Yup, all that money I made off of my old playgroup doesn't count.

I've seen two people on these forums with degrees in marketing offer to lend their services to Cactus, pro bono. If they croudsource, the only price might be airtime.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #13 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:49:18 PM »

Look at it this way; why does anyone want to play Redemption?

You've already said that MtG is more strategic (implictly; I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I haven't played it enough to really say). So, if you are just a gamer, why would you want to play Redemption over MtG? The only thing it really has is that it is Bible based - which obviously doesn't create extra appeal anywhere but in a Christian context.

Basically, without the full funding of a true "company" behind it (example: WoTC), Cactus has to sell it as an alternative because it's probably the only way it can survive (because WoTC can pay for dedicated R&D, pay for necessary marketing, and is selling the game primarily, from the beginning, to make money; Cactus does not have the money to pay for such things and is not (regardless of any concious choice to change direction) selling the game primarily to make money).

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #14 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:50:48 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 11, 2011, 05:45:34 PM

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 05:31:19 PM
Because Redemption as an alternative will only appeal to Christians, it becomes wasted to target any non-Christian
Yup, all that money I made off of my old playgroup doesn't count.

I've seen two people on these forums with degrees in marketing offer to lend their services to Cactus, pro bono. If they croudsource, the only price might be airtime.

I would probably be willing to offer the same services once my degree is completed (or as an intern at some point). But that doesn't change the fact that Cactus can't really even afford a "full" set (boosters). If they can't afford that, it seems to me that any airtime fees would create a life or death situation with the marketing - it either works or the game dies.

That's sort what I am trying to get at.

lp670sv · « **Reply #15 on:** June 11, 2011, 05:54:26 PM »

Cactus is a company. its not a charity. of course they are in it to make money, and it needs to be looked at it that way cause even if youre just in it to spread the gospel you cant do that if you close down. The biggest appeal for me for redemption was that it was easier to get in to and still do well then magic. Magic is more strategic its also confusing as hell there are literally thousands of abilities, theres more then one way to win, and if you havent been playing forever and you dont have an enormous amount of money to spend on cards you just arent going to be successful. Redemption, I spent 15 bucks i won about 1 in every 3 games and that was fine for me. Im state champion in booster draft and ive been playing for 9 months. Thats redemptions mass appeal is that its still fun its still strategic but you can get into it without breaking the bank and without having to read a 1000 page rulebook

SomeKittens · « **Reply #16 on:** June 11, 2011, 06:00:12 PM »

Not knowing the books at Cactus, we can't make any certain claims.

In CCG's, MTG is King. How does any CCG compete? Pokemon and Yugioh both have animated shows. Star Wars and LotR both have movies and books. We've got books, but not in the same way. (You could say we've got an animated show in Angel Wars. That doesn't count). However, there's more reasons than that to play Redemption. I've heard plenty of times that the tournament atmosphere is much better than any other CCG. Redemption is cheaper, and thus a much better option to a secondary CCG (For someone already playing MTG, it'd be much easier financially to pick up Redemption). It's also MUCH easier to break into the tournament scene.

Cactus doesn't have to go with traditional marketing. There are many ways they could incentivize word-of-mouth.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #17 on:** June 11, 2011, 06:54:22 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on June 11, 2011, 05:54:26 PM

Cactus is a company. its not a charity. of course they are in it to make money, and it needs to be looked at it that way cause even if youre just in it to spread the gospel you cant do that if you close down. The biggest appeal for me for redemption was that it was easier to get in to and still do well then magic. Magic is more strategic its also confusing as hell there are literally thousands of abilities, theres more then one way to win, and if you havent been playing forever and you dont have an enormous amount of money to spend on cards you just arent going to be successful. Redemption, I spent 15 bucks i won about 1 in every 3 games and that was fine for me. Im state champion in booster draft and ive been playing for 9 months. Thats redemptions mass appeal is that its still fun its still strategic but you can get into it without breaking the bank and without having to read a 1000 page rulebook

Yeah, you've never tried to read the REG have you

. All of those things you said are true, but they can only be effectively communicated on a personal level, not through advertising, marketing, etc.

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 11, 2011, 06:00:12 PM

Not knowing the books at Cactus, we can't make any certain claims.

In CCG's, MTG is King. How does any CCG compete? Pokemon and Yugioh both have animated shows. Star Wars and LotR both have movies and books. We've got books, but not in the same way. (You could say we've got an animated show in Angel Wars. That doesn't count). However, there's more reasons than that to play Redemption. I've heard plenty of times that the tournament atmosphere is much better than any other CCG. Redemption is cheaper, and thus a much better option to a secondary CCG (For someone already playing MTG, it'd be much easier financially to pick up Redemption). It's also MUCH easier to break into the tournament scene.

Cactus doesn't have to go with traditional marketing. There are many ways they could incentivize word-of-mouth.

I guess then I have to ask how exactly you would suggest effectively incentivize word of mouth? How are rewards judged? etc. If have a link to something along the lines you have been talking about, that's fine, no need for you to repeat information. I'm just curious how you (or anyone) would suggest doing that effectively. I am certainly not opposed to non-traditional methods; there just hasn't been much precedence so you must always wonder if results are outliers, etc.

lp670sv · « **Reply #18 on:** June 11, 2011, 06:58:28 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 06:54:22 PM

Yeah, you've never tried to read the REG have you . All of those things you said are true, but they can only be effectively communicated on a personal level, not through advertising, marketing, etc.

however you can communicate that the game exists. If I hadn't met SomeKittens i would have never known this game existed, it has no presence outside of the people who already know it and we've already seen that word of mouth can only be so effective. spend a little money on some posters in gaming shops, educate people in any way possible. make a cartoon show if you must.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #19 on:** June 11, 2011, 07:02:52 PM »

I have a couple ideas, they aren't too fleshed out (I haven't run the numbers, beings as I have no numbers to run). If a couple of us business guys got together and brainstormed, we probably could come up with a few ways to do so. Problem is, none of this has the Rob Anderson Stamp of Approval™. I'd love to work with people and come up with stuff, but for now, my ideas are just that-ideas. I'm just a guy with an internet connection and box of cards.

Quote from: lp670sv on June 11, 2011, 06:58:28 PM

make a cartoon show if you must.

No. Nonononono..... Not another Christian attempt at "animation."

lp670sv · « **Reply #20 on:** June 11, 2011, 07:05:02 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 11, 2011, 07:02:52 PM

No. Nonononono..... Not another Christian attempt at "animation."

One of you has to be able to do it. supposedly like 85% of America is Christian and we do okay with it, you cant tell me only the non-Christians work in animation

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #21 on:** June 11, 2011, 07:07:24 PM »

Quote from: lp670sv on June 11, 2011, 06:58:28 PM

however you can communicate that the game exists. If I hadn't met SomeKittens i would have never known this game existed, it has no presence outside of the people who already know it and we've already seen that word of mouth can only be so effective. spend a little money on some posters in gaming shops, educate people in any way possible. make a cartoon show if you must.

TBH, I don't even think that would work (think about the last time a poster really affected.... anything). However, I do agree that we need to work for a presence in game/hobby shops like Phantom of the Attic.

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 11, 2011, 07:02:52 PM

I have a couple ideas, they aren't too fleshed out (I haven't run the numbers, beings as I have no numbers to run). If a couple of us business guys got together and brainstormed, we probably could come up with a few ways to do so. Problem is, none of this has the Rob Anderson Stamp of Approval™. I'd love to work with people and come up with stuff, but for now, my ideas are just that-ideas. I'm just a guy with an internet connection and box of cards.

I don't think anyone needs to stamp approval on people discussing effective hypothetical ways to spread Redemption...

Quote from: lp670sv on June 11, 2011, 07:05:02 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 11, 2011, 07:02:52 PM
No. Nonononono..... Not another Christian attempt at "animation."

One of you has to be able to do it. supposedly like 85% of America is Christian and we do okay with it, you cant tell me only the non-Christians work in animation

Misnomer statistic aside, I think that Christian animation is a futile attempt to emulate culture rather than creating culture. Christians shouldn't be copying; they should be creating.

lp670sv · « **Reply #22 on:** June 11, 2011, 07:24:27 PM »

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 07:07:24 PM

TBH, I don't even think that would work (think about the last time a poster really affected.... anything). However, I do agree that we need to work for a presence in game/hobby shops like Phantom of the Attic.

posters work fine in hobby shops and just anything to let people know this game exists

Quote from: Alex_Olijar on June 11, 2011, 07:07:24 PM

Misnomer statistic aside, I think that Christian animation is a futile attempt to emulate culture rather than creating culture. Christians shouldn't be copying; they should be creating.

There were Christians that attempted to create. They're called Mormons and Muslims. They created something and now you reject them. /that was a joke. everybody chill.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #23 on:** June 11, 2011, 07:27:37 PM »

Personally, I think it'd be pointless if all of our ideas just sat around and never turned into action. For now, I do what I can to spread Redemption, and look for opportunities to share my ideas. For one, what about bringing back custom cards, only this time for the group with the most sales?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #24 on:** June 11, 2011, 07:48:24 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on June 11, 2011, 07:27:37 PM

For one, what about bringing back custom cards, only this time for the group with the most sales?

My first reaction was the question "Is that in the spirit of the game (based upon my reading of Rob's writings)?" But, at the same time, that's hardly gamebreaking or really anything beyond neat and cool.

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Author Topic: All it takes is a little effort... (Read 9186 times)

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