Author Topic: Post deletion vs. Quarantine (Read 17073 times)

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #25 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:15:28 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 08, 2012, 01:05:58 AM

Goats aside, then, what about other meaningless fun discussions?

I'm actually fine with fun discussions most of the time. I have already stated that my personal things that I take action on are posts involving Goats, Buffaloes, Cheese, and people smelling like Tacos. All of these have connotations here on the board that don't need to be here. But I don't think the elimination of 4 topics stinks all the fun out of the boards.

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on April 08, 2012, 01:05:58 AM

What about "No, you're thinking of..." types of discussions?

The NYTO thread was actually started in the attempt to consolidate that type of post into one specific thread so that it wouldn't happen all over the forum and annoy people. However, that whole meme has seemed to have died at this point, and therefore that thread is no longer necessary (and unsurprisingly hasn't been posted on in a loooong time).

Quote from: Rawrlolsauce! on April 08, 2012, 01:07:04 AM

Row row fight the powah is about doing the impossible and seeing the invisible - not an act of rebellion.

In the current context, that is NOT the message that you are communicating. Please be more aware of your surroundings young grasshopper

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on April 08, 2012, 01:13:08 AM

What harm do threads about goats cause?

I also have one other reason why I am opposed to threads about goats (again due to connotations), but I am not willing to share that on the forum. Hopefully you guys know me well enough to trust me that it is a reason with some thought behind it, and show me some grace.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #26 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:17:33 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 08, 2012, 01:15:28 AM

I also have one other reason why I am opposed to threads about goats (again due to connotations), but I am not willing to share that on the forum. Hopefully you guys know me well enough to trust me that it is a reason with some thought behind it, and show me some grace.

This is not something that we would know, though. Obviously if it was personally offensive to you, we would not have done it.

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #27 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:24:55 AM »

Liking Goats is so hipster.

Prof, if you have a very serious reason why you don't like goats beyond just this forum and it's actually well though out and legitimate, would you be willing to share that through a medium of your choice? Obviously, as one of the apparent tzars of the goat movement, if I would be convinced that your reason is legitimate, it'd probably go a long way to ending goats on this forum.

As a side note, I actually feel slightly bad that like 20 people post goats after I do. It's somewhat tacky to be honest. I think the goat tower is amazing. But since I know it will never be taken seriously here, I virtually have to present it in a facade trollish way to avoid simply being accused of putting it up there to troll. So, yes, I am saying I had to actually troll to avoid being accused of trolling and get my goat tower out there.

But seriously, it's a goat tower. I want to build one so bad!

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #28 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:35:28 AM »

I think what you have said begs the question, though: are you going extra hard on goat threads because you personally have a problem with goats? If so, what does that say about your qualifications to be the one removing them?

I have a personal problem with My Little Pony, I think it's rubbish and that 20-something people have an unhealthy obsession with the show for facetious reasons. However, I do not lock or quarantine Bronie threads on the entertainment board unless they violate some other rule. One could make the argument that goat threads are spam, but that points back to the whole bigger issue about what "spam" is. Nonetheless, if I locked Bronie threads and one of the reasons I gave is that I had a personal problem with MLP, I would be unfit to moderate Bronies.

*EDIT* Furthermore, Cheese was not spam in the first place. The deletion of the thread was an example of mismoderating that lead to MORE spam and "rebellion." Cheese may be "spam" now, but only because it's a symbol of when a legitimate thread was struck down just because someone without all the facts killed fun and discussion in a knee-jerk reaction. I can see smelling like tacos because that originated with something that was directed at a particular person who took great offense to it. Honestly I haven't heard of buffalo being a thing so I can't comment on that.

I am not meaning to say that Prof U is a bad moderator, and in fact, I generally approve of the job that the mods do on this forum. As a mod myself, I understand that there are sometimes things going on behind the scenes that can effect decisions in a way that doesn't make sense to non-mods. There are a few specific problems with the system, namely a too-broad definition of spam that is, in effect, fun-killing and too much leeway for mods and gmods to enforce rules subjectively and selectively. I don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but that doesn't mean I am ok with the nuggets of poo floating around in it.

lp670sv · « **Reply #29 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:38:09 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 08, 2012, 01:35:28 AM

I think what you have said begs the question, though: are you going extra hard on goat threads because you personally have a problem with goats? If so, what does that say about your qualifications to be the one removing them?

I have a personal problem with My Little Pony, I think it's rubbish and that 20-something people have an unhealthy obsession with the show for facetious reasons. However, I do not lock or quarantine Bronie threads on the entertainment board unless they violate some other rule. One could make the argument that goat threads are spam, but that points back to the whole bigger issue about what "spam" is. Nonetheless, if I locked Bronie threads and one of the reasons I gave is that I had a personal problem with MLP, I would be unfit to moderate Bronies.

If it was you that changed the thread title, thank you.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #30 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:38:41 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on April 08, 2012, 01:38:09 AM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 08, 2012, 01:35:28 AM
I think what you have said begs the question, though: are you going extra hard on goat threads because you personally have a problem with goats? If so, what does that say about your qualifications to be the one removing them?

I have a personal problem with My Little Pony, I think it's rubbish and that 20-something people have an unhealthy obsession with the show for facetious reasons. However, I do not lock or quarantine Bronie threads on the entertainment board unless they violate some other rule. One could make the argument that goat threads are spam, but that points back to the whole bigger issue about what "spam" is. Nonetheless, if I locked Bronie threads and one of the reasons I gave is that I had a personal problem with MLP, I would be unfit to moderate Bronies.

If it was you that changed the thread title, thank you.

YMT edited the original post title.

lp670sv · « **Reply #31 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:41:34 AM »

Then thank you YMT

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #32 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:42:23 AM »

Quote from: lp670sv on April 08, 2012, 01:41:34 AM

Then thank you YMT

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #33 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:58:15 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on April 08, 2012, 01:35:28 AM

I think what you have said begs the question, though: are you going extra hard on goat threads because you personally have a problem with goats? If so, what does that say about your qualifications to be the one removing them?

Oddly enough I don't actually have a problem with real goats. In fact, I was recently talking to my wife about the possibilities of getting one. As for deleting their pictures here on the forum, I think my reasons that I have already stated are sufficient for removing the pictures despite any other reasons I have.

I agree with you that MLP is a lame show, and I'm shocked that teenage guys are such fanboys of it. However, I haven't cracked down on them. Many years ago, it seemed like half the posts in a day were about SSBM, which I was also rather annoyed with personally (since I don't play), but I never cracked down on that either. I think my record speaks for itself that I don't let my personal feelings dictate my decisions as a mod here on the forum.

Of course I am open to criticism (thus allowing this very thread), and glad to try to explain my thinking on things as long as it is done in an appropriate context.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #34 on:** April 08, 2012, 02:08:37 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 08, 2012, 01:58:15 AM

Oddly enough I don't actually have a problem with real goats. In fact, I was recently talking to my wife about the possibilities of getting one. As for deleting their pictures here on the forum, I think my reasons that I have already stated are sufficient for removing the pictures despite any other reasons I have.

What's the difference between a real goat and a picture of a goat?

Quote

Many years ago, it seemed like half the posts in a day were about SSBM, which I was also rather annoyed with personally (since I don't play), but I never cracked down on that either.

This makes no sense to me at all. Many people discussed a popular game, and you were annoyed simply because you didn't play it? I really don't get why this annoyed you.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #35 on:** April 08, 2012, 02:17:11 AM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on April 08, 2012, 02:08:37 AM

What's the difference between a real goat and a picture of a goat?

I think I've talked enough about goats for tonight. I've already shared the negative connotations of goat pictures here on the forum. Real goats aren't really relevant, I just wanted to let people know that I don't hold anything against these creatures personally

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on April 08, 2012, 02:08:37 AM

This makes no sense to me at all. Many people discussed a popular game, and you were annoyed simply because you didn't play it? I really don't get why this annoyed you.

I understand your confusion, but it really comes down to how I typically interact with the forum. When I get the chance to check the forum, I generally go to the "most recent posts" and then open all 10 pages as links (which shows me the most recent 100 posts). Typically I get on often enough that I can do that and not miss any posts (because there are less than 100 new ones since I was on last). However back during the SSBM days, people were posting on that one thread so often, that for a while, every time I logged in there were posts that I missed out on because too many had happened while I was away. I just skipped over the SSBM ones so they weren't a problem themselves, but they made me miss other threads, and thus annoyed me.

Red · « **Reply #36 on:** April 08, 2012, 07:08:32 AM »

Honestly this thread just reeks of abuse of power. If goats ARE NOT directly punished in the rules then you have no reason to take them down due to the fact they are not directly against the rules. Same goes for cheese.

Mods shouldn't take ANYTHING down unless it directly goes against the rules.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #37 on:** April 08, 2012, 07:35:13 AM »

Quote from: Red on April 08, 2012, 07:08:32 AM

Mods shouldn't take ANYTHING down unless it directly goes against the rules.

It would be foolish for mods to ONLY take into consideration the exact things that are posted without considering the context of them. There is nothing specifically in the rules that forbids people from writing posts containing curse words that are spelled backwards. According to your suggestion, mods should just overlook these nonsense words (as they would appear) without realizing that they are actually attempts to rebel against the rules.

Similarly, pictures of goats, and threads solely about cheese are not wrong at face value. However in the context of their history on this forum, they are actually attempts to rebel against the rules, and that is a very good reason to remove them.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #38 on:** April 08, 2012, 08:48:38 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 08, 2012, 02:17:11 AM

I understand your confusion, but it really comes down to how I typically interact with the forum. When I get the chance to check the forum, I generally go to the "most recent posts" and then open all 10 pages as links (which shows me the most recent 100 posts). Typically I get on often enough that I can do that and not miss any posts (because there are less than 100 new ones since I was on last). However back during the SSBM days, people were posting on that one thread so often, that for a while, every time I logged in there were posts that I missed out on because too many had happened while I was away. I just skipped over the SSBM ones so they weren't a problem themselves, but they made me miss other threads, and thus annoyed me.

At last! THIS is the underlying issue. The fact is that the decision to quarantine a thread versus deleting posts is based on annoyance rather than an objective rule set. The cheese thread was a good example of this. There can be pages and pages of posts (which blocks the moderators queue) that are relevant to the topic, but as soon as someone makes an unnecessary post, it is decision time. Right now, the pattern appears to be that if the moderator just didn't like the topic, then it is quarantined. If the moderator was a part of the original discussion, then they simply delete the offending post. This is bias.

Imagine if you will that I had become a moderator. I loathe political discussions. Those discussions also take up pages and pages, and ultimately fill the Recent Posts queue. Would I then be justified to quarantine the thread when I felt someone got too heated? That would ultimately be every political thread. Can you imagine the outcry of the participants?

Right now your assertion is that those situations are "different." However, to those of us who do not participate in the one, but joyfully participate in the other, they are the same. Some people are entertained by pointless debate, while others of us are entertained by talking about cheese. You are not acknowledging that your own bias is what is causing the problem here, not cheese or goats.

Last night I decided to play by your rules. I used a political approach to getting your attention - nonviolent protest. Hopefully you can see what I see, that politics are annoying. However, if that is the only way to initiate change on this Message Board, then it is you that is forcing my hand, rather than vice-versa (as you perceive).

You want me to respect your "judgment" about goat threads, but you are not willing to trust my judgment about posting about cheese. I was part of the original cheese thread and I didn't find any of it offensive. There were no insinuations. It was just fun. There seems to be a more general bias against off-topics posted by certain youthful individuals on these boards. This, in turn, makes them feel treated unfairly, which ultimately leads to rebellious tendencies. Moderators are inciting the very rebellion that they are condemning. This is a vicious cycle that needs to stop. I have always spoken out on these boards when I feel that people are being treated unfairly. That is how I feel about this situation.

Red · « **Reply #39 on:** April 08, 2012, 10:28:14 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 08, 2012, 07:35:13 AM

Quote from: Red on April 08, 2012, 07:08:32 AM
Mods shouldn't take ANYTHING down unless it directly goes against the rules.
It would be foolish for mods to ONLY take into consideration the exact things that are posted without considering the context of them. There is nothing specifically in the rules that forbids people from writing posts containing curse words that are spelled backwards. According to your suggestion, mods should just overlook these nonsense words (as they would appear) without realizing that they are actually attempts to rebel against the rules.

Similarly, pictures of goats, and threads solely about cheese are not wrong at face value. However in the context of their history on this forum, they are actually attempts to rebel against the rules, and that is a very good reason to remove them.

The more mods are allowed to dictate their own rules the more chances over abuse of power happens. Goats and cheese are not against the rules, the threads cause no one any harm. the only problem is you don't like them. If you legitimately discuss something it isn't spam unless a mod decides they want to get rid of it due to annoyance. I respect you Prof but I feel all the Goat/Cheese hate is 100 % unjustified.

Rawrlolsauce! · « **Reply #40 on:** April 08, 2012, 10:50:02 AM »

Has there ever even been a thread about buffalo? If not, it seems to me they don't have an underlying context.

STAMP · « **Reply #41 on:** April 08, 2012, 11:53:09 AM »

Hebrews 3:8

Genesis 27:9

And Happy Resurrection Sunday, everyone!

Sean · « **Reply #42 on:** April 08, 2012, 11:57:09 AM »

I still am not trying to rebel. My last goat picture was posted to see if YMT had successfully changed your (Prof Underwood) mind. I read through this and was laughing to myself the whole time because this whole thing is arguing over some silly pictures. Furthermore, if I was really trying to rebel, you'd see a lot more from me.

Furthermore, Happy Victory day! Jesus won! He is alive!

The Schaef · « **Reply #43 on:** April 08, 2012, 12:16:09 PM »

Quote from: Red on April 08, 2012, 10:28:14 AM

The more mods are allowed to dictate their own rules the more chances over abuse of power happens. Goats and cheese are not against the rules, the threads cause no one any harm.

Mods do not dictate their own rules. Mods enforce the existing rules with discretion.

Spam is specifically disallowed in the forum rules, therefore the threads in question were rightfully deleted. It is not for you to decide what does and does not cause the forum "harm", nor is Mark exercising any subjective notion of such. He is removing spam threads from the board.

The "quarantine" method was devised for one purpose only: to keep a record of a removed thread in response to complaints that a thread may be removed without cause. If a thread is deleted, there is no recourse. If it is quarantined, it can be examined by a peer group to keep everybody honest.

The rules for these boards are few, not difficult to understand and not difficult to follow. To continue arguing about them seems like a waste of time and energy, and posting additional threads for the specific purpose of rebelling against authority will not win anyone points.

Red · « **Reply #44 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:18:34 PM »

The board is OFF-TOPIC there is NO spam because it is OFF-TOPIC. Some people enjoy what you brand as spam. Goats/Cheese harm nothing and would it not escape your minds that some people enjoy that? And I'm sorry but I have an opinion and no matter what any mod says I'm going to state it and if you mod/warn me for this it would only continue to assure me of my opinion's validity.

Lamborghini_diablo · « **Reply #45 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:23:36 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 08, 2012, 07:35:13 AM

Similarly, pictures of goats, and threads solely about cheese are not wrong at face value. However in the context of their history on this forum, they are actually attempts to rebel against the rules, and that is a very good reason to remove them.

You see them as a symbol of forum rebellion, I see them as a funny little inside joke on the forums.

Red · « **Reply #46 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:24:35 PM »

Quote from: Lamborghini_diablo on April 08, 2012, 01:23:36 PM

Quote from: Prof Underwood on April 08, 2012, 07:35:13 AM
Similarly, pictures of goats, and threads solely about cheese are not wrong at face value. However in the context of their history on this forum, they are actually attempts to rebel against the rules, and that is a very good reason to remove them.

You see them as a symbol of forum rebellion, I see them as a funny little inside joke on the forums.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #47 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:47:55 PM »

Quote

The rules for these boards are few

Check.

Quote

not difficult to understand

Uh, no. The reason there are so few rules is that the rule against "spam" so so all-encompassing and amorphous that it's basically a rule against whatever it is the mods want it to be a rule against.

Quote

not difficult to follow

This is not true because of the previous point. With no definition of "spam," any post ever can be considered "against the rules" if a mod says so.

Deleting threads about goats on New Card Ideas is good moderation because that's not what that board is for. Deleting goat towers in a ruling question thread is good moderation because that's not what that thread is for. But what is the off-topic board for? We've asked before if fun is banned on off-topic, can we have a fun board, and we didn't get a fun board. I can only conclude that means you intend off-topic to be the fun board. If so, please stop killing the fun.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #48 on:** April 08, 2012, 01:52:07 PM »

Quote from: The Schaef on April 08, 2012, 12:16:09 PM

Spam is specifically disallowed in the forum rules, therefore the threads in question were rightfully deleted. It is not for you to decide what does and does not cause the forum "harm", nor is Mark exercising any subjective notion of such. He is removing spam threads from the board.

"Spam" is subjective, and is wrongfully being defined as anything that a moderator views as irrelevant or annoying. I find threads about politics to be Spam. No one changes their mind, and everyone sits on their respective partisan pedestal and talks down to the other. There is no benefit to such discussions and may instead cause unnecessary divisiveness on the boards.

And yet, people are allowed to start one up and get people fired up anyway.

To me, having a bunch of us post incessantly about meaningless (but fun) topics is more productive than those political threads. So what, then, defines "Spam?" Right now, the overall implication is that Spam is defined by whatever annoys the moderator at the time.

My Rebellion thread was quarantined because someone else posted a goat picture in it. The Rebellion thread was intended to discuss what the underlying reason for the rebellion was, and to help bring a resolution. I posted that thread because the last time I tried to turn this debate to a more serious discussion, it too was quarantined because someone else posted a picture of a goat. I had to turn to an extreme because every attempt that I was making to seriously discuss the issue was being quarantined. That was not helping resolve the problem, ..... and there is a problem here.

Why can we not discuss this issue genuinely? Just delete Red's posts and stick to the issue. (Red, please stop posting in my thread. You are undermining what I am trying to accomplish).

The Schaef · « **Reply #49 on:** April 08, 2012, 03:23:06 PM »

By your definition, YMT, this thread does not exist because you are trying to discuss the situation seriously, and a biased or vindictive mod quarantined your thread to suppress the discussion.

And Polarius again pretends that the distinction between a thread about a topic and a thread specifically intended not to be about a topic is so impossible to discern that mods just make up whatever rules they feel like.

How many threads are actually quarantined under normal circumstances (normal meaning: not bombing the forum with multiple threads specifically intended to defy an authority figure and give Prof more work to do for no better reason than lashing out against perceived butthurt)? One, maybe two a month? And how many of those under the no-spam rule as opposed to references to Pokemon or people turning into Fighty McFighterson? I can hardly envision the mods being more permissive and/or less power-mad than the present situation, without returning to the days where people quite literally were leaving the community because the boards were overrun with crud and troll-bait.

News:

Author Topic: Post deletion vs. Quarantine (Read 17073 times)

Lamborghini_diablo

Lamborghini_diablo

Rawrlolsauce!

The Schaef

Lamborghini_diablo

The Schaef