Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 2 Deck Advice => Topic started by: adotson85 on November 01, 2010, 03:18:33 AM
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Seems to me that the new sites may alter alot of past T2 offensive strategies. CP stops AoCP, Chorazin stops Meeting the Messiah, Golgotha stops Jacob+RTC, TGT, Zeb, Watchful Servant, etc and Nazareth stops about everything else. With so few counters available for the new sites in T2, what popular offensive strategies do you expect to dissapear and what do you think will become popular now? I can see white set-asides and also choose the blocker strategies becoming popular. Also, what do you think will become popular on defense? I expect to see alot of NT evil characters.
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Heretics should be a popular NT defense with their recursion and stalling strengths. NT Females will be big on offense with Consider the Lilies, Magnificat and He is Risen. Brown is always strong in T2 and now it has two legitimate civilizations (Judean Kings and Persians) that can also be paired together quite nicely. I wouldn't count out AoCP so fast, it's still the best battle winner in the game because it discards all (non-protected) blockers and is CBN no matter the Hero. What will be interesting is seeing what people use along with it since it might only be discarding 1-2 ECs at a time.
I think Silver could see a comeback as people realize they actually need to have reliable battle winners these days (Michael/Angel's Sword/Fire Smoke Sulfur) instead of being able to count on pre-block ignores.
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Heretics should be a popular NT defense with their recursion and stalling strengths. NT Females will be big on offense with Consider the Lilies, Magnificat and He is Risen. Brown is always strong in T2 and now it has two legitimate civilizations (Judean Kings and Persians) that can also be paired together quite nicely. I wouldn't count out AoCP so fast, it's still the best battle winner in the game because it discards all (non-protected) blockers and is CBN no matter the Hero. What will be interesting is seeing what people use along with it since it might only be discarding 1-2 ECs at a time.
I think Silver could see a comeback as people realize they actually need to have reliable battle winners these days (Michael/Angel's Sword/Fire Smoke Sulfur) instead of being able to count on pre-block ignores.
I agree that we may see a spike in Heretic use since 2 of them are generic. I think NT Females, TGT and He Is Risen will be popular but i'm not yet sold on Magnificant. AoCP is still good, but took a big hit with CP and Herod's Temple. I also agree that pre-block ignore took a huge hit thanks to Golgotha. My T2 offense last year used Joshua/Phineahas+Zeal, Jacob+RTC and ET+AoCP. Needless, to say my offense will look vastly different this year.
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I think we will see a lot of mixed two color offenses that do the opposite of each other due to the sites. I don't think there will be a lot of 3+ color offenses due to stronger defenses. For example: Green/Gold, convert in territory and shuffle in battle or vice-versa, attack with whatever site they don't have out. Also I would not be surprised if the old school green/purple brown defense showed up again. CTB is alive again, you can't prepare for everything now, so it won't be till after the type 2 only tournament where the top decks emerge. Top decks won't show themselves until after that tournament, then you can do your research.
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It's ALL about Windows of Narrow Light, baby, Windows of Narrow Light. ;D
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nice.
Abraham's Descendant is to good not to see play. Who came up with that card anyways? JOB.dek anyone? Ive got the cards for it but havent tried it out except for type 1. BEAST! Disciples FTW. Thad the Mad. Placing your unique guys on bottom of deck to draw 6 and infinite access? Whats not to love? make sure your defence stops herods temple though. :) DoU/Golgotha .arg. Like Tyler said, Choose the Blocker returns! Who U Gonna Provision
What effect will Nazareth have on Type 2 multi? ouch
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What effect will Nazareth have on Type 2 multi? ouch
Nazareth is like a nuke-you don't know if the other guy has one but you feel you should just in case
;D
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Fo Sho. I'm going to talk to everyone at the T2 only, work out a peace treaty/nuclear non-proliferation pact to not play Nazareth ever.
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Who ever puts down Nazareth is the TARGET!
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Fo Sho. I'm going to talk to everyone at the T2 only, work out a peace treaty/nuclear non-proliferation pact to not play Nazareth ever.
Too bad I've already built a Nazareth/Signet Ring deck... ;D
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I'm not even going to ask about the Signet Ring.... Golgatha recursion isn't that bad ;)
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What about Basin?
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I have been toying with a Herods/Egyptians defense that seems pretty good thus far. Here is a rough draft:
Evil Cards (38)
Gold Evil Characters (19)
Herodias x2
Salome x2
Herod Philip II x2
Herod the Great x2
Herod Agrippa II x2
Archelaus x2
Egyptian Archer x2
Egyptian Chariot x3
Huge Egyptian x2
Gold Evil Enhancements (14)
Wonders Forgotten x5
Egytian Horses x3
Imprisoned x2
Ruthless x2
Beheaded x2
Evil Doms (3)
Christian Martyr
Destruction
Burial
Curses (2)
Confusion of Mind x2
Also have Darius' Decree x2, Herod's Temple x2 and 2 of each of the following sites: Golgotha, Chorazin, Nazareth, CP and Herod's Dungen. Thinking I may need a few more evil enhancements, maybe a few Masks of Fear. Any thoughts?
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I'm not sure what decks will come out, but I could see decks that are more versatile coming out, I think T2 has been moving away from 5X everything good for a long time, but I think Disciples is pushing further.
I think Angels are powerful (Because of BTN, Micheal Angel's Sword, Gabriel, Gathering and not being Human)
I also think Disciples are quite powerful and could make more than just a dent on T2 strategy.
NT females got better (slightly balanced with the weakening of TGT) but I was thinking of using them before disciples already but never got around to it.
I don't really remember much of the defenses or much of the other cards and I likely won't get to see it as much as some of you due to my lack of resources dedicated to Redemption, but maybe I can come up with something that is unique but still competitive (since thats how I like to play)
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Adotson: I like the Forgotten History here, pairs well with Nazareth! and stops thier Golgotha (but so help me, when i see that card-im coming straight for you!) I can really see Herods Dungeon doing well in type 2 with the experience credit rule working in your favor. I want to see more Beheaded for some reason.
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I have been toying with a Herods/Egyptians defense that seems pretty good thus far. Here is a rough draft:
Evil Cards (38)
Gold Evil Characters (19)
Herodias x2
Salome x2
Herod Philip II x2
Herod the Great x2
Herod Agrippa II x2
Archelaus x2
Egyptian Archer x2
Egyptian Chariot x3
Huge Egyptian x2
Gold Evil Enhancements (14)
Wonders Forgotten x5
Egytian Horses x3
Imprisoned x2
Ruthless x2
Beheaded x2
Evil Doms (3)
Christian Martyr
Destruction
Burial
Curses (2)
Confusion of Mind x2
Also have Darius' Decree x2, Herod's Temple x2 and 2 of each of the following sites: Golgotha, Chorazin, Nazareth, CP and Herod's Dungen. Thinking I may need a few more evil enhancements, maybe a few Masks of Fear. Any thoughts?
I just thought of this recently... Instead of Beheaded/Rash Oath, could you use HQ at Riblah x3? It doesn't take up a spot in your hand while your Dungeon is unoccupied. And it can discard all your captured heroes, not just the one in Dungeon. At the very least, it could cut down on the amount of Beheadings/Oaths you need. I think I'm gonna make a T1 deck with Herods/HQ now...
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Honestly I see philistines making more game time since most people are going to be playing with the purple Di and black has some good cbn against purple...*coughoverwhelmedbyphilistinescough* That has saved he like 4 turns when I played a Di purple deck.
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I'm not sure how effective Disciples will be in T2. I did play against Gabe once when he was using a Disciple deck and he won a very close game, 7-6. The problem I see with Disciples is that they only have 1 Hero who typically gets initiative (James SoA) and initiative is such a vital part of T2.
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true.
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Yeah. For me splashing TGT and Disciples works the best. You get initiative with the ladies and really my disciples are just for boat fodder, CP access with Simon the Zealot, Reach, Matthew, and James for initiative.
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I'm not sure how effective Disciples will be in T2. I did play against Gabe once when he was using a Disciple deck and he won a very close game, 7-6. The problem I see with Disciples is that they only have 1 Hero who typically gets initiative (James SoA) and initiative is such a vital part of T2.
It was interesting read to see all of the sandbagging that was going on in this thread before the MN Local T-2. Disciples is the trend in Type 2. More disciples than a boy with loaves and fishes could handle. ;D Don't let anyone kid you. The difference will not be if a Disciples deck will win Nats, it will be what defense makes the difference with Disciples on offense. Probably a defense that is NT and likes to draw...a lot.
And those of you trying to buck the trend, carry a couple of Cherubim in your "second" offense brigade, It will make for a little fun while you sit by as your defense meets the "Thad".
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I think the winning deck, or at least a top 3 deck, will not be Disciples, but a strong offense of course, with a defense that stops Disciples. If you can stop Disciples consistently you can beat the top decks, and most players will not know what you are using and will not have a counter.
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I agree with Mr. Hiatus in the sense that everyone will need an anti disciple deck to move up to the top tables except for that one disciple deck that rules them all. Matthew d3 in the early game is strong and James 1/4 is a beast with AoC. Sites got nothing on the boat and Thadd end game is a beast- especially with Herods Temple to back it up.
As a community we need to come up with a good antiDisciple deck.
Darius Decree...
One move that really worked for me was Emperor Agustus to bring back Disciples out of the boat and play Rome Destroys Jerusalem but that wqas in type 1 so...
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As a community we need to come up with a good antiDisciple deck.
Molech Worship lololololol. After just 14 turns of set aside my Uzzah can use his ability even with all 12 disciples and Crown of Thorns!
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Great idea! Now what do I do for the 14 turns that he's set aside? Maybe you should go with Golden Calf Worship instead?
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And recur it with King Jeroboam I!
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Hey, does Thad-Rad protect discard piles?
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Hey, does Thad-Rad protect discard piles?
No sir.
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Hey, does Thad-Rad protect discard piles?
No sir.
King Amon (K) + Manasseh in discard pile + Goliath's Armor + Gates of Jerusalem = Infinite Thad block
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Yeah, could someone who went to the type 2 only kinda share what the new set has done to type 2. I mean did you all see a lot of haman's plot where I should throw in some Esther Promos? You think more people will play with Darius Decree this year bc of the boat? Anything else new and innovative instead of typical disciples?
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Disciples and TGT were king for offense. Gray was king for defense, and rather mixed after that. I believe only two people played plot.
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What Ring Wraith said. The rest of the defenses were scattered. Brown and (surprisingly) Assyrian banding would probably have been third and fourth. Very little orange--probably because it was MN.
King Amon (K) + Manasseh in discard pile + Goliath's Armor + Gates of Jerusalem = Infinite Thad block
Thad + James, SoA = King Amon (K) + Manasseh in discard pile + Goliath's Armor + Gates of Jerusalem + :(
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Goliath's Armor is CBN, isn't it? Just stick it on a Golden Calf Worship'd x2 King Jeroboam II
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Goliath's Armor is CBN, isn't it? Just stick it on a Golden Calf Worship'd x2 King Jeroboam II
Use King Jeroboam I to get the MCW. You could also use Worship of Milcom, then MCW.
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Goliath's Armor is CBN, isn't it? Just stick it on a Golden Calf Worship'd x2 King Jeroboam II
Use King Jeroboam I to get the MCW. You could also use Worship of Milcom, then MCW.
That was already discussed on the second page of the thread. :-*
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King Amon (K) + Manasseh in discard pile + Goliath's Armor + Gates of Jerusalem = Infinite Thad block
Thad + James, SoA = King Amon (K) + Manasseh in discard pile + Goliath's Armor + Gates of Jerusalem + :(
^love it
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Goliath's Armor is CBN, isn't it? Just stick it on a Golden Calf Worship'd x2 King Jeroboam II
Use King Jeroboam I to get the MCW. You could also use Worship of Milcom, then MCW.
That was already discussed on the second page of the thread. :-*
I figured that had to be a mistake, 'cause the poser on page 2 said use Jeroboam I to *recur* it. Hahahahahahaha what a n00b. :-* back atcha
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You know, one early defeat of a couple of banded disciples with fallen warrior solves all your problems. Get a 20/20 Fallen warrior with Goliaths armor and it is disciples pwnage. You just gotta keep him alive...maybe hating the light? or Torment? ...or both? plus providing angel?
I think a angels Phillies deck will be great, especially since there will be a couple GOLIATHS floating around by Nationals....
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I think a angels Phillies deck will be great, especially since there will be a couple GOLIATHS floating around by Nationals....
Phillies may be a good approach to disciples.
The lack of territory protection is going to be a bit of a problem, however--especially since AoCP are going to be dropping like rain and Nazareth makes PO fairly useless. My fear is that a Philly defense will open you up to both Disciples (and by Disciples read Thaddeus) and Garden Tomb offenses. Of course a Phillies defense did do pretty well last year at Nats. ;)
Having thought a bit, however, there might be one bright side to this issue. The thing with building an offense around Thad is that you want to have a bunch of the other disciples present. I am not sure how effectively you can mix Disciples with another brigade/theme (except possibly for Garden Tomb).
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With Disciples it's pretty easy to mix in blue for Abraham's Descendant and green for Provisions. You only have to sacrifice a few non-Thad characters that you'd probably never attack with anyway.
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With Disciples it's pretty easy to mix in blue for Abraham's Descendant and green for Provisions. You only have to sacrifice a few non-Thad characters that you'd probably never attack with anyway.
Agreed.
You are talking about splashing in to support the primary theme. I was thinking more along the lines of a dual 50-50 (or 60-40) theme deck like RDT's Water Garden. (Actually I had your Teal Tomb deck in mind, but I had forgotten that the Tomb part was the same kind of splash-in you mention here.)
You could also splash in white using the Apostles version of Thaddeus. ;)
I dunno--what kind of defense would you most prefer to avoid seeing?
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I dunno--what kind of defense would you most prefer to avoid seeing?
Canaanites
I can't say that I've faced any yet that I would prefer to avoid.
I hear Herod's are beastly against Disciples but that's highly dependent on how both players construct their deck. And they are very vulnerable against the second strongest offense, white chicks. After the MN T2, Justin built a deck specifically meant to trash mine on offense and defense. It used Herods, but he still lost with that deck 7-2.
Philistines also seem like they could be problematic for purple, depending on how they're played. I haven't faced a Philistine defense yet that was designed to beat Disciples. I'm not sure that it would do well against the rest of the field either. Goliath sure will be nice! :)
Romans should be good against Disciples if they are built with that pairing in mind. I haven't faced a Roman defense that was constructed to stop Disciples, yet.
Honestly, my biggest concern is a green prophet offense that creates lots of side battles to take out my key offensive players. That's why I use Pot of Mana x 3. If only I could put it in my Herod's Temple... ::)
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I use Red with my disciples. I rescue with Andrew. You cry and hand me the lost soul.
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What Ring Wraith said. The rest of the defenses were scattered. Brown and (surprisingly) Assyrian banding would probably have been third and fourth. Very little orange--probably because it was MN.
King Amon (K) + Manasseh in discard pile + Goliath's Armor + Gates of Jerusalem = Infinite Thad block
Thad + James, SoA = King Amon (K) + Manasseh in discard pile + Goliath's Armor + Gates of Jerusalem + :(
Why is this :( ? King Amon's ability is CBN when Gates is out, so he will be able to search the discard pile for Goliath's Armor each block. If they've used Angel/Grapes already, Amon can't lose.
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Why is this :( ? King Amon's ability is CBN when Gates is out, so he will be able to search the discard pile for Goliath's Armor each block. If they've used Angel/Grapes already, Amon can't lose.
Sorry--forgot the second half of Gate's SA. You are right, this is harder to get around.
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With Disciples it's pretty easy to mix in blue for Abraham's Descendant and green for Provisions. You only have to sacrifice a few non-Thad characters that you'd probably never attack with anyway.
]
I used this strategy with a deck focusing on territory destruction with TGT where I used green Joanna for provisions and Peter for passover. My favorite card right now is Abe's Kid and I usually throw it in every deck i play with either a Claudia or a Tribal Elder.
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I'm surprised that not many people were playing with brown. It seems to me that dropping 5 plots on someone and not ripping a single one would be awesome. Any water jars show up at the type 2 only?
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I ran both plots and water jar. The jars were more for soul generation, and the plots were more for defense destruction.
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were your water jars successful in setting aside any unique characters?
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were your water jars successful in setting aside any unique characters?
I ran SWJ and, yes, they were moderately successful in setting aside unique characters.
The folks running Disciples offenses also had an inordinate fondness for DD. So running Jars was basically a way to help draw out their deck faster.
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My deck that I had started to make for MN T2 used side battles on offense to get rid of Disciples. Just 3 side battle cards paired with 3 Sam Water Jar's did go when I tested it out against my Di deck. You always have a counter to the Disciples since you're setting them aside or attacking and doing a side battle to get rid of them that way. On defense I used pale green with 3-5 Confusion's and I would get out the Thad's/Fishing Boat's/Site access and I paired that with sites. On paper it looked great and when I tested the decks against each other it worked great, just a matter of actually performing in a game it a whole 'nother thing. But that was my surprise deck to stop what I thought would be there. Because the deck also did work against TGT due to setting aside their uniques, killing their uniques, stopping access, just had a lot of counters to it. But that's all I had time to test against so I am not sure how it would do against other types, but I was worried about the majority. Impossible to stop everything. The main weakness about the deck was the offense was not a powerhouse, that's what I was working on. So you just have to play your game and beat their offense then slowly do work on them.
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Does the Disciples deck you are testing against include multiple copies of DD?
Heck, if I were running a Disciples offense, I would be tempted to add an Emperor Augustus or two just to be able to deal with SWJ. Discard one card to get a set of unique heroes into play--sounds like a deal to me.
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Im not sure how many players would be using DD but I know a few top players did have it in thier decks x2 i think and one player even admitted to using Pot of Manna x3 but im not sure if he was kidding or not.
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Gabe said he had Pot of Manna X 3 in his T2 only winning deck, but I'm not sure if I believe him :)
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Im not sure how many players would be using DD but I know a few top players did have it in thier decks x2 i think and one player even admitted to using Pot of Manna x3 but im not sure if he was kidding or not.
I do know that at least two of the top four decks at the MN Blowout had multiple copies of DD. I know one of those two added it specifically to counter SWJ (and the other one used it at least once to counter SWJ).
"Thank you so much for helping me draw out my heroes faster. Now watch me kill and heal them."
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(and the other one used it at least once to counter SWJ)
;D
I think I did it twice, once versus you and once versus Craig. Admittedly that was not my intended use when I put them in the deck, but it was a nice side benefit. At the Austin tournament this past weekend, I used both DD and Emperor Augustus to get "Jarred" Heroes back quicker in T2 MP.
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I had one copy of Darius' Decree in my deck.
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Craig Fountain drove clear to Iowa and came to my house to play T2 tonight. He beat a Disciples T2 deck I was playing twice 7-6 with two of his different decks. He is officially the master of what it takes to beat Disciples. :)
P.S. - I may or may not have let him win because he bought me dinner first. ::)
P.S.S. - He also kept me up way to late as evidence by the time of this post.
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Craig Fountain drove clear to Iowa and came to my house to play T2 tonight. He beat a Disciples T2 deck I was playing twice 7-6 with two of his different decks. He is officially the master of what it takes to beat Disciples. :)
P.S. - I may or may not have let him win because he bought me dinner first. ::)
P.S.S. - He also kept me up way to late as evidence by the time of this post.
Do to an extensive "non-disclosure" that I had to sign....? I am not permitted to discuss the events of last nights activities...in detail. All I can say to all of you who are saying, If the old fart can beat him, I can. Remember, this analogy. You know how you introduce a friend to the game. You don't bust out your best deck, you use the one that keeps him interested. Enough said. ;)
And to all of you freeloaders looking for a free meal. You have figured me out. Promise me 3 redemption matches, great fellowship with two fantastic kids with awesome Ninja skills (I have the bruises from their "matrix" type moves) and a very patient wife and I am there. ;D
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And to all of you freeloaders looking for a free meal. You have figured me out. Promise me 3 redemption matches, great fellowship with two fantastic kids with awesome Ninja skills (I have the bruises from their "matrix" type moves) and a very patient wife and I am there. ;D
More importantly, what do we have to do to keep you away? :P
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And to all of you freeloaders looking for a free meal. You have figured me out. Promise me 3 redemption matches, great fellowship with two fantastic kids with awesome Ninja skills (I have the bruises from their "matrix" type moves) and a very patient wife and I am there. ;D
More importantly, what do we have to do to keep you away? :P
Cards. ;)
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Does the Disciples deck you are testing against include multiple copies of DD?
Yes it had 2 in there.
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so, samaritan H20 and 5 confusions to take out your jar counters, and i am safe from Thad?
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Not Jar counters, site access/Thad himself. I would go for their Fishing Boat(s) and CP.
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is there anything you can do to stop cards like passover hymn, I am grace, and others that get rid of say 2K horses? Cause I gotta feelin woohoo that I will be seeing opponents taking out enhancements that give me the opportunity to play first card. Maybe, I will go with multiple King Jehoiakin and other 1/1 guys to be able to play first now.
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Maybe, I will go with multiple King Jehoiakin and other 1/1 guys to be able to play first now.
Protecting the entire known universe from your cards if they make a rescue with Thaddeus. :(
If you are really dependent on playing your non-territory class evil enhancements (Confusion in this case), side battles may be the way to go.
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is there anything you can do to stop cards like passover hymn, I am grace, and others that get rid of say 2K horses?
I really hope not. A-Bomb would be super op'd if that was the case.
Although, Destructive Sin + Darius' Decree would work. Providing they don't use Nathan...
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Simply put Destructive Sin on Nathan himself, then it's not in territory when his SA activates ;D
The problem is when they have Nathan AND Anna... :o
There's also another trick I like to use, but I can't reveal everything... ::)
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There's also another trick I like to use, but I can't reveal everything... ::)
If it is the one you used against me at the T2 Blowout, I have one word for you, sir. And that word is "Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr."
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tell me tell me, I'm in the south, so I will probably never play you in a tourney. I just don't want a leg up in the south.
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There's also another trick I like to use, but I can't reveal everything... ::)
If it is the one you used against me at the T2 Blowout, I have one word for you, sir. And that word is "Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr."
Actually, this is a newer one...but that one works pretty well too... :D