Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 1 Deck Advice => Topic started by: sepjazzwarrior on February 07, 2012, 01:22:53 PM
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63 cards
LS:8
site sharer
NT
Female
pigs
speedbump
3 liner
site EC placer
withdrawer
doms:7
grapes
FA
CM
burial
DoN
Mayhem
Vain phil
Forts:4
herod's temple
wall of protection
assyrian camp
philly outpost
artifacts:2
lampstand
asherah pole
covs and curses:4
Josiah's cov
I am healing
cov with death
unknown nation
sites: 8
silver site x 3
teal sites x 3
horma
pergimum
heros:1
watchful servant
evil characters:12
goliath
philly garrison
12 finger
philly armor bearer
fallen warrior
philly priests
simon the magician
Delilah
assyrian archer
king sargon II
assyrian survivors
ASA
uzzah
FW
evil enhancements:15
land dispute
foolish advice
bringing fear
pride of simeon
philly 2k horses
joseph before pharaoh
hunger
ish spear
wrath of satan
overwhelmed by phillies
2k horses
death of unrighteous
confusion
forgotten history
achins sin
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Right now, if they CM your WS, you're done. I would use Herod's Temple instead of the Tabernacle, and I would get rid of KotW, Mirac. Hand, Tables, Plagued w. D., and add more support for WS, like CoF, Lay down your Life, etc.
I'd concentrate on probably just two evil brigades for enhancements/characters, or add Users o' the confusing arts and/or Deceiving Spirit so you have more characters who can use all your enhancements. Def add KingMan.
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Right now, if they CM your WS, you're done. I would use Herod's Temple instead of the Tabernacle, and I would get rid of KotW, Mirac. Hand, Tables, Plagued w. D., and add more support for WS, like CoF, Lay down your Life, etc.
A New Covenant does the trick nicely.
I'm really confused as to why Training in Righteousness is in here though.
The defense looks pretty weak. You can make a lot of stall blocks, but the overall damage isn't serious enough to hold them off the whole game. It's also a tad spread out.
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training in righteousness is in there for site access, and a new cov and backward shadow stop CM and from him getting decreased in territory by gates of sameria or plagued with diseases. i came up with a new defense, Ill be updating the deck with it
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"Falling Away" is questionable because you will almost always get it AFTER your opponent has GoYS, so it will be a dead card.
"Herod's Temple" is fine to replace "Tabernacle", but probably won't matter because you won't have any deck left to discard by the time you are in danger.
"Wall of Protection" is a good card in this deck (although not in most others) since you never have to worry about Goliath blocking you.
"Darkness" is probably not necessary
"Kingdoms of this world" is a good card (despite the suggestion to remove it). It is great for protecting your magician with MC on it, and is also good for stopping CTB.
"magic hankerchief" is unnecessary with "The New Covenant" which is more versatile.
"tables of the law" is unnecessary once you take out some of the fluffy enhs that are causing your hand clog. If you really have a problem with it, then Storehouse is better.
"rain becomes dust" also unnecessary
"faithful servant promo" I would replace with Ahimaaz for CoF recursion of WS
training in righteousness - unnecessary
lifting the curse - unnecessary
backward shadow - unnecessary
As for the defense, most people would suggest going with a solid brown defense with the Samaria defense + standalones like Gomer and Uzzah and TAS, and I'd throw in Complainers as well. I'd also splash Assyrian Archer + ASA. With all of that you should be able to take out any site access that they have, and lock them out before they deck out and you start walking in with WS.
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the reason i use FSP is that on him i can play lifting the curse (to get rid of placed enhancements and curses), backward shadow (to stop decrease), and beniductus, plus the side benefit of play a new cov as an enhancement. i would like to do ahimaaz with CoF, but i have no other way to kill destructive sin other than perhaps grapes, and i need backward shadow in case i run into a plagued with diesease or gates of samera defense, so i need all the birgade colors in there. magic hankie is in there to protect WS if i have to set him aside on trianing in righteousness for site access from darius decree, but i can see how that would be unnecessary, ill probably take them out and take my chances with an access site and how it doesnt get land disputed away. i see your point on FA, probably will take it out for perhaps kingdoms witht the new defense. herodes temple wont help cause ill be out of a deck before i rescue, and i ahve other things to get around CM
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The Darkness is not needed, but I do like it. It does protect the face down EC, and stops CTB. It also is helpful to mess with the opponent. If you could leave it, I would.
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I have always use FA in defenseive heavy decks, though Guardian doesn't usually make the cut. Sure you might not be able to play it in every game, but when you can get it off it can be a difference between a win and a loss.
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moved it down to a 56, switched to ahimaaz and CoF rather than just trying to heal WS every time. took out storehouse, rain becomes dust, overwhelmed by phillies. could i discard unknown nation to save WS with herods temple (they are matching birgade cause they are both gold)
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Not a big enough defense to block early, and last the entire game. I'd bump the EC's up to 14-16, and add another 1-3 EE's.
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What do you do if opponent has Cov. w/ Death?
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DoN or ASA. would it be better to bump it up to a 63 for more characters? also keep in mind that there are plenty of sites to help stall
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Can't rely on sites to stall. You need one more counter to Cov w/ Death. And yes, I firmly believe 63 cards will work better.
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Agreed, DoN might not even be a reliable counter as you then leave yourself open to magic charms. ASA isn't that reliable either because chances are they have already rescued 2 lost souls before they need cwd active. As for the counter itself I would say captured ark, but by the time you need it they will probably be decked and get it right back. Seeing as how you will need more than two reascues to win I don't think this is a legitimate option. Your best bet is to use some white hero with Lifting the Curse, between that and ASA you have a good chance of getting rid of cwd. But this is why I am hesitant to use Watchful Servant for Turtle this year.
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i took out ahimaaz, CoF, and mayhem (i never seem to use it) for FSP, lifting the curse, and backward shadow. would it maybe be a good idea to add blue tassels to stop all the self capture characters (slave, A. survivors, pharaoh cupbearer, ect) and joseph in prison from giving me LS's? what should i add to bump it up to a 63? if i do make it bigger im afraid of not drawing what i need fast enough so what could i add for speed or to stop my opponent from drawing? here is what i was thinking:
Add:
philly priests
captured ark
Rain becomes dust
king sargon
a site, probably silver
mayhem
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If any decks should be bigger than 63, it would be turtles. I would definitely use Mayhem (a FTM allows you to set up faster than your opponent, and it can reduce a speed player's 13+ card hand full of doms and battle winners to six cards. You shouldn't need to worry about self-capture EC's since you won't be attacking until end game anyway.
I would add Captured Ark to counter CwD, sure they'll draw it again, but getting rid of it during your prep phase you can play LtC during your dc phase.
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LTC won't work against CwD unless they block your White Hero and give you initaitive.
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Right. Which is why Captured Ark would help.
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How would LTC help following Ark if CwD is shuffled? Cards are considered played when their special ability activates, aren't they?
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Yes. However, LtC's ability activated as a triggered ability and is always active. Using it to get rid of a Curse isn't activating/playing it. Similarly, CwD won't stop Abom from triggering, etc.
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That makes sense.
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LTC won't work against CwD unless they block your White Hero and give you initaitive.
My point was either they activate cwd and it gets discarded by ASA or they deactivate it and I can play lifting the curse anyway. But I see now why captured ark is helpful.
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changed the cards im thinking of adding at the bottom of p.1. what do you think about using silver sites? would there be a better color to use?
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moved it down to a 56, switched to ahimaaz and CoF rather than just trying to heal WS every time. took out storehouse, rain becomes dust, overwhelmed by phillies. could i discard unknown nation to save WS with herods temple (they are matching birgade cause they are both gold)
No, Evil Gold and Good Gold are different brigades.
Side note, why Ahimazz over Spy?
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Ahimaaz would allow you to use Urim and Thummim, and Benedictus, whicjh is why I always used him in my turtles, but since he doesn't use either, there's really no reason to choose one over the other.
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Spy/Warrior's Spear would seem to be a nice combo to get to the WS part of the game faster. (Plus, hitting a dominant would be nice).
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Ahimaaz would allow you to use Urim and Thummim, and Benedictus, whicjh is why I always used him in my turtles, but since he doesn't use either, there's really no reason to choose one over the other.
plus, he's protected from capture.
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Ahimaaz would allow you to use Urim and Thummim, and Benedictus, whicjh is why I always used him in my turtles, but since he doesn't use either, there's really no reason to choose one over the other.
plus, he's protected from capture.
Only while he's in battle. And he should never be in battle longer than his ability is, so that's moot.
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Ahimaaz would allow you to use Urim and Thummim, and Benedictus, whicjh is why I always used him in my turtles, but since he doesn't use either, there's really no reason to choose one over the other.
plus, he's protected from capture.
Only when in battle, and he won't be in battle long enough to get captured.
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i do have benidictus in the deck to get rid of golgotha, but ahimaaz isnt in there anymore cause i need lifting the curse to help get rid of Cov with death. i wouldnt be opposed to putting him and CoF in but idk what to take out, backward shadow and something else?
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I only see 10 ECs in this deck. If you have open spots for cards, I think that is your biggest need other than Captured Ark.
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I could use some more EC, but keep in mind i hav in unknown nation and philly oupost to search for them and recurr half of them
moved it down to a 56, switched to ahimaaz and CoF rather than just trying to heal WS every time. took out storehouse, rain becomes dust, overwhelmed by phillies. could i discard unknown nation to save WS with herods temple (they are matching birgade cause they are both gold)
No, Evil Gold and Good Gold are different brigades.
So does this mean that the warriors battle prayer doesn't recurr evil gold enhancements anymore?
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moved it down to a 56, switched to ahimaaz and CoF rather than just trying to heal WS every time. took out storehouse, rain becomes dust, overwhelmed by phillies. could i discard unknown nation to save WS with herods temple (they are matching birgade cause they are both gold)
No, Evil Gold and Good Gold are different brigades.
So does this mean that the warriors battle prayer doesn't recurr evil gold enhancements anymore?
+1 When did that change?
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It still works as it always has. Gold good and Gold evil are both Gold but are not the same brigade.
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I agree with Hobbit. "Good Gold" and "Evil Gold" are different, however, "Gold" can refer to either one.
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made a few small changes
out:
captured ark
philly priests
RBD
silver site
site discard LS
in:
simon the magician
ashera poll
wrath of satan
CP
thorns LS
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I like Confusion of Mind better than Covenant with Death because it shuts down your opponent's offense without shutting down your defense. And at the end of the game you will have taken out their site access artifacts and sites, so the only danger is their characters with site access. If you have CoM at the end of the game (when they no longer have the cards to discard to get rid of it) then that problem is solved too.
I like Philly Priests better than Fallen Warrior. They are often still small enough to get initiative (which is all FW has going for him), and their ability to negate artifacts is OFTEN the difference in the game when playing with lockout type defenses. Your main problems will be site access (which often comes from artifacts) or having to kill heroes multiple times (which usually comes from Chariot of Fire). Being able to stop both of those when you haven't drawn your DoN or Captured Ark yet is an important piece of the puzzle.
I assume that you meant Joseph in Prison instead of Joseph before Pharoah, since that latter wouldn't really make any sense in this deck.
I'm not sure that The Rabsaris is really that necessary to this deck. I think that it would be far better to either have Captured Ark or that PG EC who recurs your curses so that you could get Confusion of Mind back over and over again.
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I like Confusion of Mind better than Covenant with Death because it shuts down your opponent's offense without shutting down your defense. And at the end of the game you will have taken out their site access artifacts and sites, so the only danger is their characters with site access. If you have CoM at the end of the game (when they no longer have the cards to discard to get rid of it) then that problem is solved too.
Disagree. CoM is far too easy to get rid of. If they have characters with sa's granting them site access (doubtful), you should be able to take care of them. CwD is a boss.
I like Philly Priests better than Fallen Warrior. They are often still small enough to get initiative (which is all FW has going for him), and their ability to negate artifacts is OFTEN the difference in the game when playing with lockout type defenses. Your main problems will be site access (which often comes from artifacts) or having to kill heroes multiple times (which usually comes from Chariot of Fire). Being able to stop both of those when you haven't drawn your DoN or Captured Ark yet is an important piece of the puzzle.
Personally, I think you need both. I normally would have agreed with you, Prof, but after nats and pulling off FW + BF +Wrath a couple of times<, well, I changed my mind.
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Disagree. CoM is far too easy to get rid of. If they have characters with sa's granting them site access (doubtful), you should be able to take care of them. CwD is a boss.
But at the end of the game you'll have to turn CwD off just so you can attack with WS. You can leave CoM on forever. And if you can recur it, then it doesn't matter if they get rid of it :)
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Sometimes getting rid of it once wins them the game.
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I see your point for CoM, but I think I want to try CwD for right now (just because CoM is so easy to get rid of). I like fallen warrior for inish now, but I may take out king sargon for philly priests
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Forts:4
herod's temple
wall of protection
assyrian protect fortress
philly outpost
artifacts:3
lampstand
bronze laver
ashera poll
covs and curses:3
a new covenant
cov with death
unknown nation
sites: 8
silver site x 5
CP
pergimum
ends of the earth
heros:2
watchful servant
FSP
hero enhancements:3
benidictus
Lifting the curse
backward shadow
evil characters:12
goliath
philly garrison
12 finger
philly armor bearer
fallen warrior
simon the magician
assyrian archer
the rabsaris
assyrian survivors
ASA
king sargon
uzzah
Your two brigades have no synergy between the two. No banding to play enhancements off each other, no Self, no initiative on pale green side. This defense might look good while it's in territory, but will get picked apart like no other in battle. You need to have ways to add EC's to battle after they used a battle winner. You need to be able to block them once you have been discarded. You need to have more options than just a big guy that gives away initiative. Add Lot's Wife, Messenger of Satan, switch for some demons and add Gates of Hell, definitely do Writ. Add Magicians that play both colors and use MC, add demons that play any color and destructive sin. Add standalone/banding demons. Your goal is to give them 2 lost souls, and allow them SoG/NJ. In order to block them every time you need to be able to have your EC's do majority of the work. Anytime you can win a RA without using your resources is detrimental to your win, and their loss. Your EC's need to look so scary, and have so many options, with options to back up those options, via Writ active, Gates out, EC face down on a site, The Darkness out, Unknown Nation active, etc etc., that they do not even want to attack. 12 EC's isn't going to do this. 15-17 is. Personally, I like all my evil enhancements to be battle winners, or negates/interrupts for defense. That means I would take out Pride of Simon/Confusion. Great cards, but you need a stronger corps of EC's. They RA, you can not block anything without 2k Horses against the top played offenses. They play a CBN battle winner, you pretty much gave up one lost soil, and they only used one card. They need to be using 2-3 cards in EVERY battle in order for you to win. You need to block turn one, through turn 20 until they are out of every possible resource in their deck. I would also think you should have a way to hurt their defense with your defense. I don't see a Watchful Servant offense doing much this year. Absolutely add Golgotha. DoU/Golgotha to get back what will hurt them most, and it stops ignore! I would like to see a Lying Unto God thrown in, as well as a Lurking. I think the defense can be upgraded a heck of a lot more than what you are at now, no offense.
evil enhancements:12
land dispute
foolish advice
bringing fear
pride of simeon
joseph before pharaoh* Joseph in Prison
hunger
wrath of satan
2k horses
death of unrighteous
confusion
forgotten history
achins sin
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I think the defense can be upgraded a heck of a lot more than what you are at now, no offense.
In a thread about a turtle deck, this comment just struck me as funny :)
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I think you underestimate this defense and what it is ment to do. The defese you suggest would definately work, but you seem to miss the point of a site defense. Decks today don't really have much for site access because no one has used site decks since fishing boat came out. All this defense has to do is kill maybe 1-2 site, maybe 1-2 artifacts, and kill maybe 1-2 heros with access ability. I have yet to see a recent deck with more than 2 ways for site access. That is the point of the defense, to kill there 1-2 ways of access. This deck will do that very well.
What is out there to stop WS that I can't kill with this deck? Why not WS?
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Why not WS?
Because there is a 1 hour time limit on games at Nats, and you will timeout too many times to have a chance to win.
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I never said I was planning on winning Nats, or even playing this deck in any tourny. I don't have the time or money for tournys, I just want to build a powerful deck.
Also, decks are so fast these days I think it would time out as much, especially if I can move it down to a 56 like I'm trying to do
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Decks are only fast if the guy running it wants them too. Once they figure out you're playing WS, they'll stop drawing.
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true, but that doesn't matter cause it's not a tourny deck
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Decks are only fast if the guy running it wants them too. Once they figure out you're playing WS, they'll stop drawing.
Except you won't find that out until it's too late, generally speaking. Also, I frequently keep speeding through because a constant bombardment will be what wins, not letting a turtle deck draw.
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Once you realize that the turtle has bested you, then you slow and try to timeout.
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Decks are only fast if the guy running it wants them too. Once they figure out you're playing WS, they'll stop drawing.
Except you won't find that out until it's too late, generally speaking. Also, I frequently keep speeding through because a constant bombardment will be what wins, not letting a turtle deck draw.
ands thats why the pure ws offense is bad but adding a touch of luke/john forced drawing does wonders and no not abom either but thats all im gonna say lol
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it's not bad, it just means you can't use it in a tourny or just win every game by timeout
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I think its a misconception that time limits are the reason why turtle can't win nats. If the turtle player is timing out more than once in a ten round tournament they are doing something wrong.
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I think its a misconception that time limits are the reason why turtle can't win nats. If the turtle player is timing out more than once in a ten round tournament they are doing something wrong.
Bad draws are what kill turtles, just like the rest of us.
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I agree, not time limits.
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I think its a misconception that time limits are the reason why turtle can't win nats. If the turtle player is timing out more than once in a ten round tournament they are doing something wrong.
I disagree, and I think the reason is because you're looking at turtle decks the wrong way. A 154 card deck with maybe 20 cards (if that) on offense is strong enough to beat speed decks. A combination of stalls before you get a more comprehensive defense (such as GoS) set up is generally enough to win. My old 154 card deck went something like 10-1, and some of those games were against solid speed decks piloted by strong players. A giant turtle is the strongest type of turtle, and they will never be viable due to time limits.
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Not if you build it properly, if its fast it should be fine more often then not (as in not timing out). Good Turtle loses when it gets out run, not because it times out.
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Build what properly, exactly?
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Giant Turtle.
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I agree with Hobbit, but it really comes down to improper terminology.
The most popular view of turtle is a really small offense that waits until it's safe to start making rescues.
However, this isn't necessarily what a turtle is.
A turtle is also viewed as a defensive-heavy deck.
Which doesn't quite fit the term of turtle. Defensive heavy is it's own term, similar to anti-meta.
A turtle is also viewed as a deck that draws slow.
This isn't necessarily true either.
You couldn't build a 70 card speed deck, even if it was packed with speed cards. The whole point is trying to deck as fast as you can. Turtles are just the opposite, they try to deck slowly, and punish Rabbit speed decks. So you can be a fast turtle. The turtle wins the race with slow and steady, but the fastest turtle will win, not just any turtle. However, this means you probably won't deck, but will still need the speed to get the cards you need.
At least, that's my new view on what turtles are.
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You won't believe that a Heroless deck can win intil you run into a good one played by a skilled player and get beat and then you wonder how can I beat that deck.
You won't believe a turtle deck can be fast until you play your 63 card deck againt a 154 card deck and lose after your opponent decked before you did.
Both of those senarios happened to me in the last 2 weeks.
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You won't believe that a Heroless deck can win intil you run into a good one played by a skilled player and get beat and then you wonder how can I beat that deck.
That happened to me once, and I'm 3 for 3 since. The biggest asset to turtles is surprise. Most people really don't know how to play against them.
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I've never lost to anything above 63 cards in regulation time, and I've beaten turtles more often than not when time wasn't a factor. When talking about timeouts, bear in mind that the "one hour" time limits isn't actually an hour of game time. That's more like 45 minutes. Many games involving two conventional decks can near that 45 minute mark, so in order to assert speed decks don't time out often, you have to show how they're just as fast at 70+ cards as is a conventional deck at 56. I just don't see it.
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I've never lost to anything above 63 cards in regulation time, and I've beaten turtles more often than not when time wasn't a factor. When talking about timeouts, bear in mind that the "one hour" time limits isn't actually an hour of game time. That's more like 45 minutes. Many games involving two conventional decks can near that 45 minute mark, so in order to assert speed decks don't time out often, you have to show how they're just as fast at 70+ cards as is a conventional deck at 56. I just don't see it.
Because the game doesn't end when you deck, it ends when you get 5 lost souls. All you need to do that is a way around KoT, considering the meta-defense. You have just as many chances to rescue lost souls as your opponent, and just because you draw slower doesn't mean that you can't rescue just as fast (or faster, considering how many times you should be blocking them)
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They get their offense turn 1. How long do you wait until you draw your way around KoT?
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You couldn't build a 70 card speed deck,
Wasn't the original SpeedFreak 63-70 cards?
The turtle wins the race with slow and steady, but the fastest turtle will win, not just any turtle. However, this means you probably won't deck, but will still need the speed to get the cards you need.
I think it's skill, experience (both player and with the deck), and deck building. I never like drawing too much in my defensive heavy decks, the ratios are so precise I always have something to block with. I played in Boston, a 56 card Abomb deck, using my 63 or 70 card Abomb deck and I easily won.
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I updated this deck in light of the new rules, I took out SoG and NJ for storehouse and overwhelmed by phillies because i can't use them defensively anymore and if WS can rescue 3 LSs he can rescue 5. The only problem is now if my opponent is using the */4 or greater and the female only and burial I don't have access to 5 LSs. Would it be worth it to put in the wanderer LS just for this reason, or are enouhg people not using the *4 or greater and burial so that I won't have to worry about it and I can put in the colorguard LS instead?
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*/4 is going to be in most decks now. Just put I Am Salvation in there.
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I plan on having up Josiah's cov all the time once WS is out so I cant really
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I took out SoG and NJ
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ficanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com%2F2009%2F09%2Ffunny-pictures-kitten-is-confused.jpg&hash=3a31bbc2d6380ce65666be9dfe06fb8075526999)
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I think that you might be well off taking out storehouse (or overwhelmed by phillies) and leave in SoG, I can see where (especially in a turtle deck) why you wouldn't want NJ, I wouldn't want it in this deck either, but SoG is still a free soul without NJ, and since turtles have problems with times outs, SoGing for a souls rather than waiting for WS could help you get more wins.
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Having SoG would let me win a turn faster, but at the cost of a card slot in my hand the entire game. This deck isn't concerned with winning fast, one turn won't make a difference at the end of the game. I'm not planning on taking this deck to tourny, so I'm not worried about time-outs
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Ok, but still, what if the opponent has two lost souls out? It's a easy drop in that case. Additionally I don't think that one extra card is going to completely clog your hand. I don't think any deck should go without SoG it's simply too powerful to not to.
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It is powerful, but not necessary. At the end of the game I can walk through and get 5 LSs easy, so why do I need SoG again? That's like including AoCP in every deck that had 1 hero that can use purple because its a powerful card. I'd rather have storehouse in this deck do I dont have to discard all my EEs at the end of my turn while I'm making space in my hand for WS and his support cards until I get lampy and Josiah's cov up
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In my WS turtle deck, which is quite similar to yours, only 56 cards, I use: Book of the Covenant, I am Healing, and Cov with(of?) Josiah in the Tabernacle, and Lampstand in the Artifact slot. With Nazareth Site you are protected then from DON and Captured Ark, and Christian Martyr does not bother you because of I am Healing. Glory of the Lord might not be a bad dominant add in case there was some crazy way they coulg get to Tabernacle that I'm not aware of. Covenant with Josiah makes it so they can't put DS or Image of Jealousy on WS.
Be careful about putting too much in Storehouse. One well-placed IOJ can send all those EEs to the discard pile.
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IoJ won't send the enhancements to discard pile, you just can't retrieve them from Storehouse until IoJ is gone.
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It is powerful, but not necessary. At the end of the game I can walk through and get 5 LSs easy, so why do I need SoG again? That's like including AoCP in every deck that had 1 hero that can use purple because its a powerful card. I'd rather have storehouse in this deck do I dont have to discard all my EEs at the end of my turn while I'm making space in my hand for WS and his support cards until I get lampy and Josiah's cov up
Yes it necessary, if WS gets blocked just once where are you? SoG gives you an extra soul in case it's missing.
Also including AoCP in every deck with a purple guy is not the same thing for several reasons. 1 it's not a guaranteed soul like SoG (Gib delegates for instance is protected from discard) 2. Unlike SoG you have to have a character to play AoCP on another variable. These two things are massive differences, in power level. In my opinion there are four cards that no deck should do without, SoG, Mayhem, CM, and AotL. These four cards should go in every deck becasue they are probably the four most powerful cards in the game. I think that having SoG in there will win you more souls than either storehouse, or overwhelmed by phillies will. Since you won't be making rescues until later, It will be easy to drop SoG early in the game (if you get it early) before your hand really gets clogged with it. Ultimately your one reason for not using SoG (hand clog) falls because it will only do that one out of ten times that you draw it. The positive impact of SoG in the other 9 games is far greater than the negative impact of SoG in the one game.
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What's the point of playing SOG early in a stall/turtle deck if you don't also have Guardian to keep it there?
So you play SOG in an early round. If your opponent has FA in their deck, they will play it before you make your first WS rescue anyway. If time limit is not an issue, and they are locked out, then you will win. If they are not locked out yet, and you are still in some sort of race to get to get to 5 first, you will lose anyway (in my opinion). In my WS deck, if it worked then they were locked out and could just sit back and watch me win (or concede). But if they were still making rescue attempts after they've decked out, then my defense has not been strong enough and they're probably going to win anyway.
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What's the point of playing SOG early in a stall/turtle deck if you don't also have Guardian to keep it there?
Lampstand
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I'm sorry, I still keep getting hung up on the time out thing, I'm used to playing with time limits and I keep forgetting that this deck is supposed to be played without them. ::)
But on the FA issue.
So what if they play FA on you SoGed soul, they can still FA one of your rescued souls and cause you to have to make six rescues instead of five, no matter how you cut it SoG gets you a turn ahead of where you are.
Additionally, lampy works as a good counter for FA, as Kittens said.
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They wont FA one of my rescued souls once WS starts rescuing because ill have lampy up. They could earlier in the game if I rescue with SoG becasue them i most likely wont have it up then. There is no point to SoG when I can get 5 free souls at the end of the game.
stefferweffer, i like your idea, ill be using it me thinks
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One other piece of advice - you may want to include more artifact destruction, like at least Lying unto God.
Here's why: Chariot of Fire. A smart opponent once kept suiciding his hero so all dead guys in the discard pile would form a new deck, then he would have too many cards in hand, and discard all but one hero. He kept repeating the process so that he was never decked out, and thus I could not rescue because he had a way to kill WS if I did.
I give him kudos for the strategy, and it made me realize that Chariot of Fire can be a real annoyance to a deck like this.
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I do recommend SOG for the Female only lost soul though. What is your plan if they have Toughness greater than 4 and Female Only LS, and then they bury another one. Can't you only get to 4 lost souls at that point? You could also consider I am Salvation or FBTN lost soul if that happens, I guess.
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I would like to put in lying onto God, but for what? I have ASA, DoN, and philly priests for CoF remember however. I was thinking the wanderer LS to take care of that problem. Upon further inspection i see that you dont need book of the cov. just have lampy in the temple, josiahs cov on the artifact pile, and use a new cov from hand on FSP
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IoJ does worse than discard them, it paralyzes them.
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how does it paralyze them? The "holds" is part of the ability, so negating it would return them to hand
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Only if it's negated in the same phase they're put in. Otherwise it just stops more from going in and paralyzes the ones going out.
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how does it paralyze them? The "holds" is part of the ability, so negating it would return them to hand
Storehouse actually doesn't have a holds ability or identifier. It has a place ability (you can place enhancements there) and it has a take ability (you can take enhancements out of there). Were it to be printed today, it would probably have a holds identifier like most newer Fortresses, but the fact remains it does not, and thus when IoJ negates the ability, it cannot interrupt the place ability (since the place ability was an instant ability activated in a previous phase) but it does prevent the place and the take abilities. Thus Pol is correct, the enhancements are paralyzed.