Author Topic: Tier Lists (T1)  (Read 29608 times)

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2011, 02:52:19 AM »
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4. Defenses shall not be considered to help offenses, and offenses shall not be considered to help defenses. That means Zeb/WS is not the best offense in the game (and shall not be considered for tiering due to the difficulties in doing so. Similarly for defenceless).

This one should be tossed out. When building a deck, you can't just build an offense or defense, you have to have the other in mind always.

While your point is true, this isn't a deck ranking list. This is a distinct offense and defence tier listing.

A great example is Luke heroes. When you throw out defences, they are pretty terrible. They help the opponent speed through the deck and have little to do against demons. If you were to consider defences in tiering them, suddenly they shoot up do to abomination of desolation. Does that make them a good offense?

No, it simply makes them a good deck when variables are perfect. The point of a tier listing is that, when all else is equal (and by equal, I mean neutral), offense A is better than offense B. Thus, in order to maintain the integrity of the tier list, defense must be thrown out for offense and vice versa.

Offline Daniel TS RED

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2011, 11:59:35 AM »
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I see what you're saying. I guess a Tier List like this doesn't have a lot of value then. Most people would want a list of top offenses and top defenses for deckbuilding. If you setup rules on how you rank things, then you're getting "top" offenses and "top" defenses that are not even close to the top.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2011, 12:05:51 PM »
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I see what you're saying. I guess a Tier List like this doesn't have a lot of value then. Most people would want a list of top offenses and top defenses for deckbuilding. If you setup rules on how you rank things, then you're getting "top" offenses and "top" defenses that are not going to be in any winning decks. You'll end up with single color offenses and defenses that require no support that will end up being the highest ranked, but in real games will be easily destroyed.
Disciples and TGT are easily destroyed? There are very few good combined strategy decks, other than A-Bomb. Hand discard and deck discard have been tried, but for the most part will fail (at least this year). Heavy offense has been the most successful, and heavy defense has met with some success, although usually it's a combined strategy deck. I started this thread because cookie monster wanted to know how good individual defenses were. This created an easy way to do it.

I'm willing to start a combined deck list too, but other than A-Bomb, Deck Discard, and Hand Discard, I can't really think of anything. Disciples/Pharisees are just taking the best offense and putting a small defense with it, so it's not really a combined deck strategy.

And the list includes mixes of brigades, although only to help the strategy.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2011, 12:08:58 PM »
+3
It doesn't have a lot of value either way, the good players know what is good, the new players know what they are playing is "good". The only way players can be convinced of what is the best or not is by playing. Not by reading a tier list. With that being said it is certainly fun to talk about so go for it!  :)

Offline Daniel TS RED

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2011, 12:21:22 PM »
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I agree with Hobbit, but I'll shut up for a bit and see how the list works out. After that I'll try to some of the top tier defenses and judge for myself. I think you should post a decklist of these actual defenses though. If you're going to say A is better than B because it uses less support, we should be able to see the decklists and say, yeah, they're right.
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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2011, 12:23:17 PM »
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We will do that once we get to the nitpicking of determining which is better than which within tiers.

Offline TheKarazyvicePresidentRR

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2011, 01:02:20 PM »
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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2011, 01:03:41 PM »
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I thought about including it in the offensive strategy, but it's really not an offense/defense, it's a deck type that can be found in tons of different versions. Or used to be found...

Offline SomeKittens

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2011, 03:49:35 PM »
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perhaps an archetypal decklist.  Cards that should be included, and some other options if one wishes to expand.
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2011, 04:19:08 PM »
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perhaps an archetypal decklist.  Cards that should be included, and some other options if one wishes to expand.

This and DTSR's post are much broader and bigger ideas. Once we get a tier more solid, this is definately something to think about expanding to.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2011, 05:12:12 PM »
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So is this the part were we argue to death over tier seeds? If so I am in

Corrections
A Tier
Disciples- yeah
White TGT- agreed
Gardenciples
Disciples/Red- Disciples Red is B or C tier, Very few people play, it only slows down DI
Disciples/Blue- Really not a big difference, I would lump di red and di blue in to straight di
White/Purple TGT This year white purple tgt is garden disciples
White/Gold TGT    There is really no such thing
B Tier
Fight by the Numbers Banding- A tier
Job- C or D tier
Teal Brigade agreed
Prophets- I would argue tier 1
Choose the Blocker- C tier
Luke- D tier
Fight by the Numbers- non existent
Old School Speed- nonexistent
C Tier
Genesis- D tier
Judges- D tier
D Tier
Red- agreed
Angels Agreed

A Tier
Pharisees- yeah
Black Philistines- B tier
Brown Brigade- sure
Orange/Black- No such thing really
Herods- Agreed, only because it is played alot, personally I would say B, but then again you have to look at all the other defenses.

B Tier
Magicians/Brown
Standalones- A tier by Olijars criteria
Orange- C tier
Romans- C tier with all the di out there

C Tier
Magicians/Orange
Babylonians- B tier
Heretics- D tier
Egyptians- Agreed

D Tier
Syrians
Assyrians
Sadducees
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 05:19:56 PM by TheHobbit13 »

Warrior_Monk

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2011, 05:18:30 PM »
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Disciples/Red- Disciples Red is B or C tier, Very few people play, it only slows down DI
Disciples/Red is B or C tier? I guess T1 Multi is always a fluke, but Andrew FTW.
But since I should do this unbiasedly, I'll move it down.

Offline Daniel TS RED

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2011, 06:05:27 PM »
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FbtN should be added to both lists. I think the Genesis offense should be in tier A, at least tier B.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2011, 07:01:34 PM by Daniel TS RED »
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2011, 11:45:09 PM »
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A Tier
Disciples - Disciples are a top tier offense purely on Thaddeus. All his other friends are virtually sideshows. While they are large, fishing boat virtually mitigates that issue.
White TGT - This is still the most versatile offense in the game. It can be paired with almost anything and be successful, and thus, deserves to be top tier.
NT Prophets - Assuming well splashed silver, this offense packs a lot of power simply by neutralizing common battlewinners such as discard or the capture (although the offense is hurt by it being focused on one or two heroes). The added aid of Hidden Treasures really pushes them into the top tier (especially considering the relative small size compared to normal bruising offense).

B Tier
Z Temple - Z Temple remains a steady rock at the top of tier lists. It has great protection from almost every good battlewinner, strong banding (including one character that bumps all Z temple priests 3/3) and several awesome CBN/CBI combos. It would almost certainly be top tier if it wasn't unworldy huge.
Choose the Blocker - CtB is the ultimate anti-meta offense. With little room for a hard counter, most decks don't both to counter CtB and instead assume that they can deal with one or two CtBs a game with dominants. When used as a main strategy, CtB can devastate unprepared decks.
Fight by the Numbers Banding - This is a great offense, but it really suffers from a lack of versatility and from being easily countered by one of the most common defenses, Herods (and Philistines, to a lesser extent).
Teal/Red – Teal and Red in combination provide a good balance of banding, strong enhancements, and protection (if desired), but really suffer from the classic problem is simply being too big to fit into a balanced deck (which is ideal in order to mitigate bad draws).
Old School Speed - Old School speed is a strong offense because it provides a nice balance of virtually every other strategy while maintaining speed. However, with the advent of cards like Herod's Temple really upping defensive stayability, Old school speed doesn't really have the oomph of other similar sized offenses.

C Tier
Fight by the Numbers – Fight by the numbers has suffered from over-counter syndrome. Formerly a great offense, it has fallen drastically due to many counters now being printed have CBP/CBN status, as well several harder counters being produced. It is also thoroughly outclassed by its cousin FBTN-banding version.
Job – Job is a great offense. The real problem with Job is that he is slow. Even though he has enough power, he almost is forced to be used with a large defense due to his slow nature. A bottom 10 card Job could easily lose you the game in a tournament.
Red – Red is a great offense that has a lot of options (especially when one is willing to splash in either blue or green). With enhancements designed to target weaknesses of FBTN-banding, a heavy Red deck serves as an anti-counter version of a FBTN-banding deck. Unfortunately, it really can’t do much else.
OT Prophets -A former dominant offense, OT Prophets have really felt the hurt of Nazereth tech in many competetive decks. Because the best battlewinners for prophets of the OT are almost exclusively shuffles, this offense is practically stopped cold by a quick drawn Nazereth.
Genesis – Genesis has solid battlewinners, strong banding, and unique abilities. Unfortunately, it suffers from being MASSIVE (practically bigger than Disciples) for not enough power (or speed). While it can win games, almost every other offense can win games at the size Genesis virtually requires you to play at.
Luke/John Gold - LJ Gold is a strategy overly dependant on using certain defensive cards in the same deck. This essentially creates 3/4 before you even put any cards into the deck, and as such, LJ isn't that good of an offense because it doesn't have a ton of power, and it has zero versatility. If you have played one LJ deck, you have basically played them all.

D Tier
Teal/Gold – Teal Gold is a strategy that seems to be promoted by cards in print, but by combining them, both offenses suffer, and very little can be done. The only thing saving this offense is how awesome Aaron + Moses is.
Judges – Judges are that offense that you always think will do really great, but comes out just meh. While the pieces are there with powerful enhancements and neat abilities such as Ehud, Judges simply don’t have enough substance to compete with other deck types.
Angels – Angels are simply not built to be played as an exclusive strategy. Because most strong silver cards involve other brigades, most decks use silver for seasoning, and never as the main ingredient.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 02:59:55 PM by Alex_Olijar »

Offline Minister Polarius

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2011, 01:17:10 AM »
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Excellent tier list and analysis, Alex. I agree entirely.
I am not talking about T2 unless I am explicitly talking about T2. Also Mayhem is fine now somehow!

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2011, 01:23:47 AM »
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Excellent tier list and analysis, Alex. I agree entirely.

Wow. I'm surprised you didn't have any issues with it anywhere.

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2011, 11:52:15 AM »
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Other than the fact that you're missing old school speed (which absolutely still does exist), I agree entirely with Alex's assessment.
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Offline CJSports

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2011, 12:18:40 PM »
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If the Teal Gold is N.T. Gold I agree completely but I feel like a Z-Temple Judges would run very well if built correctly.
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Offline Daniel TS RED

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2011, 12:49:39 PM »
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Very nicely done Alex. I believe that disciples would still be #1 even if Thad was banned.
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Warrior_Monk

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2011, 01:33:35 PM »
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Wow. So my updated list is basically Olijar's tier list, considering it's been fourthed, and I agree with it for the most part. I still have Watchful Servant in the B Tier, mainly because it's small and once it gets ready, it's really hard to stop. Luke is also in there.

I think we should now start the nitpicking within tiers. Beginning with the A Tier for offense.

I think White TGT should be the top, since it has enough fire power to actually win games, and it's generally a bit smaller than Disciples. It also gives options for creativity, and if your opponent uses a standalone defense (which is still pretty popular), you win without needing to play an enhancement.

Disciples should be next, since it's really fast and really hard to stop once it gets going. It's only problem is it doesn't have much firepower, and a good size defense should be able to shut it down. They're versatile if you use some of the apostles disciples, giving them a bit more power. Also, Thaddeus.

N.T. Prophets are mainly good because they're so small. They aren't very fast, but they can pack quite a punch. They have recursion if you use Gabe (Di), and if you put in Micah. Also, Hidden Treasures can rip a part a defense. Standalone and Pharisees don't stand a chance, since HT can pick off the few Pharisee enhancements, and will often include angels, which can break through Balaam's Disobedience. Standalone gets shut down by Simeon + Anna, and Two Bears is vicious.

Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2011, 02:56:43 PM »
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If the Teal Gold is N.T. Gold I agree completely but I feel like a Z-Temple Judges would run very well if built correctly.

They aren't.

Wow. So my updated list is basically Olijar's tier list, considering it's been fourthed, and I agree with it for the most part. I still have Watchful Servant in the B Tier, mainly because it's small and once it gets ready, it's really hard to stop. Luke is also in there.

If you want to tier WS (which I intentionally ignored), I would suggest tiering him into his own tier because he is the best offense in the game, assumign you have a good defense and you don't time out. He's very much an exception to a rule. Also, I added Luke into my C tier. I almost put it into D tier. Frankly speaking, I think it stinks. Only because others think it is good did I put it into C. I hate offenses that require a certain defense and speed up the opponent.

Quote
I think we should now start the nitpicking within tiers. Beginning with the A Tier for offense.

I tried to order mine close to what I would have if I was ranking them numerically.

Quote
I think White TGT should be the top, since it has enough fire power to actually win games, and it's generally a bit smaller than Disciples. It also gives options for creativity, and if your opponent uses a standalone defense (which is still pretty popular), you win without needing to play an enhancement.

Disciples should be next, since it's really fast and really hard to stop once it gets going. It's only problem is it doesn't have much firepower, and a good size defense should be able to shut it down. They're versatile if you use some of the apostles disciples, giving them a bit more power. Also, Thaddeus.

I second that TGT is the best offense. Unlike Disciples, when someone draws TGT and puts it down, I have no idea what it is paired with (or if it is paired at all). Against disciples, I can predict what will happen in the game based on the first two turns >70% of the time, if not more. Disciples are very much cookie cutter. TGT is versatile and different every time. While a few combos are obviously the best (Teal, Green, or Purple) there are several options not far behind (Gold, Silver, Blue). Red is virtually the only offense that can not be paired TGT effectively.

Quote
N.T. Prophets are mainly good because they're so small. They aren't very fast, but they can pack quite a punch. They have recursion if you use Gabe (Di), and if you put in Micah. Also, Hidden Treasures can rip a part a defense. Standalone and Pharisees don't stand a chance, since HT can pick off the few Pharisee enhancements, and will often include angels, which can break through Balaam's Disobedience. Standalone gets shut down by Simeon + Anna, and Two Bears is vicious.

That about sums NT prophets up. They are too powerful in a small package to be lower in the tier, but they lack the speed possibilities of other decks at the top to really compete with them. They are best paired with a larger than average defense and designed to play for a long game.

Other than the fact that you're missing old school speed (which absolutely still does exist), I agree entirely with Alex's assessment.
Excellent tier list and analysis, Alex. I agree entirely.
Very nicely done Alex. I believe that disciples would still be #1 even if Thad was banned.

I apparently know what I am doing. That's new.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2011, 03:01:25 PM by Alex_Olijar »

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2011, 03:10:14 PM »
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I support Watchful Servant in the A Tier. Above Prophets, for sure. I'm not sure whether to put Disciples above it...

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #47 on: May 08, 2011, 03:24:57 PM »
+1
I disagree Di should be on the very top. Here is why.

1. Di is faster than TGT
2. Di has built in anti capture. (writ and magic charms both of which are very popular, one is in every deck)
3. Access to the most powerful enhancement in the game
4. Access to CBN characters with out a second card in play.
5. Di can play TGT, White TGT cannot play DI
6. Di isn't really hurt by nazz, tgt could have some issues with it

IMO the best offense in the game is either straight Di or Di+TGT.. Combining Di's drawing and territory destruction with TGT soul winning ability.



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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #48 on: May 08, 2011, 03:47:33 PM »
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I disagree Di should be on the very top. Here is why.

1. Di is faster than TGT
2. Di has built in anti capture. (writ and magic charms both of which are very popular, one is in every deck)
3. Access to the most powerful enhancement in the game
4. Access to CBN characters with out a second card in play.
5. Di can play TGT, White TGT cannot play DI
6. Di isn't really hurt by nazz, tgt could have some issues with it

IMO the best offense in the game is either straight Di or Di+TGT.. Combining Di's drawing and territory destruction with TGT soul winning ability.

1. Not necessarily. Teal/Tomb and Gardenciples are both as fast or faster than Disciples.
2. I have to give this one to you. The banding helps though.
3. Meh. He is Risen is better, IMO, mainly because protect forts/sites are rampant and it interrupts and ends. It can also band TSA in if you have the CBN banding chain, and it is recurrable with Consider the Lillies.
4. Meh. TGT is fast enough, it'll be out quickly. Philip is a beast though.
6. People play Nazzy? I saw one at Iowa State, and that was only used to stop Philly Outpost, his defense was pathetic.
5. I played two Gardenciples decks at Iowa State, and they both relied on the TGT part more than the Disciples part.

TheHobbit13

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Re: Tier Lists (T1)
« Reply #49 on: May 08, 2011, 04:13:50 PM »
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Sorry I wasn't more specific. I was specifically arguing that Di is better than White Garden Tomb, I didn't know you ment the white TGT heroes I thought you were talking straight white.

 


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