Author Topic: lost soul choice  (Read 2483 times)

Offline peanutbutter(:

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lost soul choice
« on: July 01, 2013, 11:12:41 AM »
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What lost souls would be used in a type 1 57 card deck? I know you would need to know what kind of deck it is, but is */4 and FBTN preffered over the revealer and anti burial/ wanderer?
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Offline Gabe

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2013, 12:22:40 PM »
+3
Wanderer is one of the best LS in the game, if not the best. It's very rare that I find a reason not to include it.
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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2013, 12:33:31 PM »
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Wanderer is one of the best LS in the game, if not the best. It's very rare that I find a reason not to include it.

Even with so many common ways to negate it?
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Offline Josh

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2013, 12:53:20 PM »
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Even with so many common ways to negate it?

If it's negated, then it really doesn't matter which lost soul could have replaced it. 
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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2013, 12:55:59 PM »
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If it's negated, then it really doesn't matter which lost soul could have replaced it.

... Probably should have thought that one through a bit more, huh? :doh:
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2013, 01:27:06 PM »
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What lost souls would be used in a type 1 57 card deck? I know you would need to know what kind of deck it is, but is */4 and FBTN preffered over the revealer and anti burial/ wanderer?

It varies considerably by strategy of deck, but there are definitely tiers of LSs that range from should be in every T1 deck, to heavily depends on strategy.
Here's how I would rank them, others can comment as they see fit:

Tier 1-Should be in every T1 deck:
Revealer: Not only is it possible soul gen, a first-turn Revealer can often tell you what strategy your opponent is using before the game has really begun.
Exchanger/Wanderer/Switcheroo: One of the best ways to access protected souls or swap for a nasty 2/3-Liner. It is also the best way for you to be able to rescue your own LS.
 
Tier 2-Should be in most decks, but may depend somewhat on strategy/other Lost Souls that should be included:
Fool: The fact is, there will be times when your defense will have to give up Lost Souls. So you might as well make rescuing those Lost Souls as painful for your opponent as possible. The only time I wouldn't include this is if you use fewer than 3 EEs in your deck. The beauty of this LS is that it doesn't matter if your enhancement is negated or not, it just has to be played. So you can use the most ineffective enhancement possible vs. a banding chain, and blow up the whole thing.
N.T. Only: This dropped out of Tier 1 in my estimation due to the new SoG, but it still should make the cut in most decks. The fact is, it still can't be rescued by well over half of the useful Heroes in the game, and its very existence forces a lot of offenses to use the Negater LS just for a chance at rescuing it.
Female Only: Basically the same as the NT only, except it isn't affected at all by the new SoG, and it is even more restrictive when it comes to who can rescue it.
Resurrection: I wasn't sure where to put this exactly, but I decided on Tier 2 because some decks just really don't care which Heroes they use, so recursion is not at all important. However, I'd say most decks do have 1-2 Heroes that are most important to their strategies, which means the ability to recur them when your defense gives up an LS can be important.
CBP: This would be a Tier 1 LS if EEs were more popular, but the fact is they are not. Still, the very presence of this LS can often scare off a FBTN Hero/Band, and it can be even better when it isn't noticed. I can't tell you how many times I've wiped out a band with Wrath/JiP/etc. because my opponent didn't realize they weren't preventing it.

Tier 3-Depends heavily on strategy, and what else you have room for:
Site Doubler/Site Guard/Site Discard/Deck Discard/Color Guard: All of these are relatively similar in usefulness, and depend greatly on your use of sites. They are also common in defensive-heavy decks, but unless you use at least 3 or more sites, none of them should be in your deck.
Negater (FBTN): This is a necessity if you use an offense that needs help accessing NT or Fem only, though it isn't as important as it once was with the new SoG. It can help or hurt you at varying times, so you need to plan accordingly.
Shame: I don't see this very commonly in T1 except in defensive heavy decks or multiplayer, but I think that's mostly because it is hard to fit in. It can be very useful, but it can also be worthless to you if drawn at the wrong time, which is why it is usually not picked over other LSs.
Thorns: Definitely more of a T2 staple for any defense that doesn't use DoU/SSS, but most often can't fit into T1 decks.
Speed Bump: Can be a sneaky way to block, but it usually does little good unless your opponent doesn't know it. If there was more ways for evil to force drawing, then it could be part of a great combo, but as is it's just a minor inconvenience that people have to deal with.
Shut Door/Beggar/Withdraw: All of these are pretty situational, but they can be nice in certain soul-hiding strategies. The Withdraw LS can combo well with Strife, but Strife won't be used much in T1 anyway.
Punisher: A lot of offenses use several colors, but it is pretty rare for a player to use more than three, and if they do, they have plenty of CBN Heroes (like Samuel or AutO) that aren't affected. There will almost always be better choices.
2/3-Liner: This went from being Tier 1 to Tier 3 with the rescue rule and dom cap combined, when it made it impossible to rescue your own shuffler with SoG and made Burial far less common in T1. It still has its uses when combined with Hormah/DoU, but it seems in a lot of cases, it just effectively becomes an extra LS available for your opponent to rescue.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 01:29:13 PM by Professoralstad »
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2013, 01:27:30 PM »
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Continued...


Tier 4-Can be useful in some circumstances, but very rarely used:
Anti-ignore: This has a hard time fitting into T1 decks mostly because T1 decks are rarely monocolor, and OT ignore is much less of an issue in T1 than in T2. If it stopped TGT it would probably be a staple, but Zebulun and RTC are typically mere annoyances in T1, and not worth teching against.
*/4: This probably went from Tier 3 to Tier 1 with the rescue rule, but the new SoG makes it nigh useless. It can be nice against Genesis decks, where 3 of their 4 best Heroes can't rescue it, but that's about it.
Shuffler: This went from being Tier 1 to Tier 4, below the 2/3-Liner, which was its best combo partner prior to the rescue rule. Now there are almost always better LSs to use, and shuffler can be detrimental to you as your opponent can use it against you with SoG (or more likely NJ now, so SoG doesn't negate it) to get a block, but you cannot.
Demon Discard: Even in my full demon defenses, I rarely get to use this card's effect. Either I don't want to give up my blocker as there are other LS's available, my opponent has a banding chain, or Thorns/Negater soul is out.
Far Country: This card is mostly useful in monster GoH decks, or some Canaanite defenses (to recur Canaan). It's nice that it is "when put into play" instead of "when drawn" so that it can be comboed with GoH, but in order to use it effectively with Canaan you need to make sure it is drawn/redrawn after shuffle after the site is discarded.
First Round Protect: I wavered on this one between Tier 3 and 4, but decided that it's temporary nature makes it too situational to ever fit well in a T1 deck. I could see it fitting into certain stalling strategies, but it's definitely more of a T2 LS.
Pigs: Let's face it, most drawing is done by Heroes anyway, so Pigs doesn't do much in T1. Sure, it can stop Pentecost and First Fruits, but I think the resurgence of Darius' Decree as a common Artifact in T1 does a better job of that anyway.
Rejoice: I see very little point to using this Lost Soul. You have to give it up to use its effect, and your opponents all gain the same benefit as you do. The only way this could be useful is in an Abom deck, but I haven't seen one of those in awhile. But that would be the only reason it's not Tier 5.
Site Remove: This used to be more popular with Site decks to get another use out of Site/Deck Discard. But those are situational enough; add in the necessity for you to have used them once before your draw this, and this shouldn't see the light of day in most decks.

Tier 5-Shouldn't be used in T1 decks. Ever.
Anti-Angel: First, it has to be rescued. Second, it has to be rescued by an Angel. And third, it only manages to underdeck another LS (which plenty of other cards/LSs already do.).
Anti-Burial: This would be Tier 2 in T2, where the only downside is that it has to be chosen, but the upside is that it stops a for sure block. But since Burial is so uncommon in T1, and Lampstand stops it already, this LS is simply overkill.
Discarder: You have to discard from territory to use it, while your opponent gets to choose from territory or hand. This could be Tier 4 if Abom decks were more popular, but it's still only useful if you draw it after the evil card is placed.
Human Only: This could be Tier 3-4 if mono-silver somehow became more popular, but the fact that the human Hero just has to be in play or set-aside area makes it really weak.
Same Reference/Same Testament: I don't think I've ever seen either of these two souls in any decks. They are way too situational, and while there are plenty of banding chains that would trigger the protection on either, there are plenty enough that wouldn't trigger them at all, and they simply make your opponent think about how to get around them (which shouldn't be hard).

That's pretty exhaustive, and highly opinionated, but it should be able to generate a good discussion. It could also be a future article for the metagaming fellows, as LS choice is an integral part of deckbuilding.
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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2013, 01:29:00 PM »
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Personally I think that virtually every deck should include:
2-liner/3-liner
Wanderer
1st Round Protect

Decks with more than 1 site should include:
Hand discard
Deck discard
Site doubler
Site guard

Decks with real defense should include:
CBP LS
New one that discards all heroes if you played a EE

Specialized decks should include specific LSs:
Demon decks = Demon discarder
Decks with all OT, male heroes (genesis, judges) = Negator LS
Decks with withdraw (herods, brown) = Withdrawl LS
Decks with LS hiding (pharisees, heretics) = focus on NT LSs
Decks that totally depend on 1 hero (Zeb, WS, Job, etc.) = new hero recur LS
Decks that totally depend on speed = anti-Burial (need all LSs to be available)
Decks with Abom = new LS that makes everyone draw 1 card

If you are not running any of the above and just need some generic good LSs:
Shut door LS (disappears when opponent plays a good dom)
Revealer LS (especially good in speed decks)
Female LS (the new SoG doesn't change anything here, so still good)

LSs that used to be good, but should no longer be used:
NT Only - there are just too many good NT heroes and the new SoG takes it
*/4 - the new SoG takes this too
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 01:38:13 PM by Prof Underwood »

Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 01:52:55 PM »
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Continued:
I mostly agree with what the "other Prof" has to say, but I'll focus on my one disagreement in each of his top 4 tiers:
Tier 1-Should be in every T1 deck:
Revealer: Not only is it possible soul gen, a first-turn Revealer can often tell you what strategy your opponent is using before the game has really begun.
Although the Revealer is great, it really doesn't deserve a spot in defense-heavy decks and might not belong in balanced decks either.  Both of those decks can wait for their opponent's LSs to come out naturally, and it would be better to have other LSs that are harder for their opponent to rescue.

Tier 2-Should be in most decks, but may depend somewhat on strategy/other Lost Souls that should be included:
N.T. Only: This dropped out of Tier 1 in my estimation due to the new SoG, but it still should make the cut in most decks. The fact is, it still can't be rescued by well over half of the useful Heroes in the game, and its very existence forces a lot of offenses to use the Negater LS just for a chance at rescuing it.
There are just too many strong NT heroes that are commonly used these days.  This LS really just isn't worth a spot anymore, and should probably be dropped to tier 4.  It will be very rare for this LS to be any problem at all for top decks to rescue.

Tier 3-Depends heavily on strategy, and what else you have room for:
2/3-Liner: This went from being Tier 1 to Tier 3 with the rescue rule and dom cap combined, when it made it impossible to rescue your own shuffler with SoG and made Burial far less common in T1. It still has its uses when combined with Hormah/DoU, but it seems in a lot of cases, it just effectively becomes an extra LS available for your opponent to rescue.
With Vain Philosophy becoming popular, people are playing SoG/NJ faster these days instead of holding on to them and risking losing one.  That means that the 2/3-liner is becoming even more powerful.  I can't even count how many games I have one purely due to this one card.  It certainly belongs in tier 1.

Tier 4-Can be useful in some circumstances, but very rarely used:
First Round Protect: I wavered on this one between Tier 3 and 4, but decided that it's temporary nature makes it too situational to ever fit well in a T1 deck. I could see it fitting into certain stalling strategies, but it's definitely more of a T2 LS.
This is another one that the new SoG doesn't change anything.  In most games it still can't be rescued the first turn that it comes out, and sometimes that stall is the difference between winning and losing a game (whether you're playing speed and are in a race, or you are playing defense-heavy and need to build up your defense).

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2013, 02:21:18 PM »
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On Revealer: I disagree that it doesn't belong in defensive heavy decks, as in the worst case scenario, it allows you to know what is coming. I don't think there are enough LSs more useful than revealer to usurp a spot. But I certainly see your argument.

On NT Only: It is true that there are a lot of good NT Heroes, but the fact is that this LS requires players to either use an NT offense (or at least an offense that includes NT Heroes) or use an effective method of stopping it. If you use this Soul, this souls and the female only both serve to limit your opponents options, which leaves you less to prepare for.

On 2/3 Liner: I agree that this LS can make or break a game, but it certainly shouldn't be Tier 1. Way too many times, it can end up biting you by providing another LS for your opponent to rescue, and if you don't use Burial, there's often not much that can be done about it. I suppose it could be Tier 2, but I think there are too many decks that are better without it to make it Tier 1.

On FRP: I can certainly see the argument, but I wouldn't make it Tier 1. It's protection is only useful if it is the only LS available to rescue, so if it isn't drawn at the right time, it's protection will expire before it does you any good. Maybe Tier 2, but I'd still put it at Tier 3 at best.
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Offline Drrek

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2013, 02:46:48 PM »
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I typically use

NT Only - Yeah, there's more decks with NT heroes around, but a still sizable number of decks are mainly O.T.  I think the protection on this one is worth it.

Resurrection - For most decks this is just too useful not to use.  Not every hero is made equal, and I'd rather be rescuing with John than Philip, so bringing back the better heroes is nice.

Female Only - A large amount of heroes currently played can't rescue it, so why not use it?

CBP - I really can't imagine running even a small defense without this guy, he's just so good.

Exchanger - You'll almost always find a use for him.

If I had a revealer, it would be in this spot, but I don't.

For the last soul, it depends on the deck.  Punisher's great, even with just Holy grail (though I typically only play it when I have a Luke splash with MtM), as most offenses are already running at least 2-3 colors anyway.  Thorns is great, if you aren't playing anything it stops.  2/3 liner if you are running cards that get rid of souls.  FPR is generally worth a look at this spot if nothing else seems to fit in. 

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Offline Prof Underwood

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2013, 03:20:01 PM »
-3
On NT Only: ...this LS requires players to either use an NT offense (or at least an offense that includes NT Heroes) or use an effective method of stopping it.
Red - both Centurions take it
Green - "called" Isaiah takes it
Silver - TSA, Gabriel, etc. takes it
White - all TGT girls take it
Blue - Genesis can NOT take it
Purple - all Disciples take it
Gold - all Luke/John heroes take it
Teal - PoC takes it
Mixed - probably have multiples of the above

So unless you're playing against a straight Genesis deck the NT's protection is unlikely to matter.  That is NOT good enough for me to put it anywhere near Tier 2.

Also, any deck that has the 2/3-liner should also have Burial.  The rest of our variances are probably just differences of opinion/style.

Offline Gabe

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2013, 03:33:26 PM »
+3
So unless you're playing against a straight Genesis deck the NT's protection is unlikely to matter.  That is NOT good enough for me to put it anywhere near Tier 2.

Then you seriously under value the impact the NT Only LS has on the game. It's a tier 1 LS and a staple in most decks. Just because a brigade has a character that can rescue the NT Only LS, doesn't meant that all themes, or all decks can get it easily. Even if they have a character or two they have to draw it and then must rescue with that Hero as opposed to other, possibly better options.
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Offline Professoralstad

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2013, 03:47:17 PM »
+2
The issue is not whether or not a deck is capable of taking it the NT only, but rather that you often force players to use one of the above Heroes when their better options might be (and often will be):

Red-Ishmaiah, Ahimelek, Spy, or David
Green-Daniel+Mike, Samuel, Joseph
Silver-Captain of the Host, Michael (w/ Daniel), Seraph, Cherubim, AutO, AWSN
White-Obviously I am forced to concede this point  :)
Blue-Obviously you have already conceded this point  :)
Purple-I am mostly forced to concede this point, but I will address it later.
Gold-Samuel, Gideon, Jair, Ehud, Jephthah.
Teal-Every other deckable teal Hero.
Mixed-Almost certainly have multiples of the above

As for the issue with Disciples (and to a lesser extent TGT ladies) yes, you have a useless LS, but you are also able to design your deck to make up for that potential weakness. If you tailor your defense with the NT LS in mind (at least somewhat) then you have an advantage over primarily OT offenses, and you have an advantage over NT offenses. My thinking is that if you can limit your opponent's options, you have less that you need to account for on defense, which can be a game-changing difference. NT Soul allows you to do just that.

Also, any deck that has the 2/3-liner should also have Burial. 

Okay, but if you say 2/3 Liner is a Tier 1 LS, then you are also saying that Burial is a Tier 1 Dominant. I personally would have trouble fitting it into a 57 card deck, as in most cases there are 8 other dominants that are more useful (and/or less susceptible to Lampstand). I would only use Burial in a dedicated soul-control deck in T1 (such as the deck I recently posted).
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2013, 04:13:38 PM »
+1
I'm glad to hear people seriously misvalue lost souls. Should be an easy year at Nats.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2013, 04:25:01 PM »
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I'm glad to hear people seriously misvalue lost souls. Should be an easy year at Nats.

Care to elaborate a bit more on this? It's not a very helpful statement unless people know what you are referring to...
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Offline Alex_Olijar

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #16 on: July 01, 2013, 04:28:26 PM »
-1
I'm on a phone so in a bit

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #17 on: July 01, 2013, 05:17:07 PM »
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I'll probably make a larger post with my soul preference later, but in the meantime, I don't think the NT is tier 1, and it's just barely tier 2. The fact of the matter is a large percentage of players (at least that I've played with) are using NT offenses, making the soul entirely useless except for NJ. A soul that won't even have a chance to matter in 40% (random guesstimate) of games isn't one that's necessary in every deck to me. Yes, in some games where people are using OT offenses, it can be helpful, and I would use it before the */4 soul  (but way after the Female Only soul), but even then, in more games than not, it's still not going to matter at all. The only exception would be in defense heavy decks that run slower.

Offline Professoralstad

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Re: lost soul choice
« Reply #18 on: July 01, 2013, 06:05:56 PM »
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I agree that it shouldn't be Tier 1, as I reserved that for Lost Souls that should be in every T1 deck. The NT only isn't one of those in my estimation. Some decks, especially site-heavy decks that want to use the site-specialty-souls, probably won't be able to fit it in. But I really don't think there are any souls below Tier 2 that would replace it in a deck that doesn't have a specific strategy that benefits from those souls, except possibly for the Negater LS in decks where the Protected Souls can hurt (or even in general for those decks, since if your opponent exchanges for it then rescues the exchanger, that can be trouble.

I agree that the effectiveness of NT is situational, but I'd say that Lost Souls below Tier 2 are all even more situational.
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