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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 1 Deck Advice => Topic started by: jbeers285 on February 26, 2019, 01:58:26 PM

Title: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: jbeers285 on February 26, 2019, 01:58:26 PM
Is anyone else thinking that the hardcore anti-meta defense is going to be built around

Jezebel
KoT (PoC)
Foreign Wives
Lot's Wife
The Deciever
The God of this World
Priest of Zeus
Gates of Hell

I mean just those characters and Gates are going to kick around the green prophets  . . if they can get out fast enough

I also like the the crimson bear against the meta since it has to be discarded and lots of the green winners, withdraw, remove, shuffle

Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Josh on February 26, 2019, 02:15:19 PM
The god of This World and PoZ are an anticombo though   :(

Plus, TgoTW makes it so you lose Unity for [Edited by R.O.S.E.S], which you will definitely want to be running.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Gabe on February 26, 2019, 02:15:39 PM
Absolutely! And don't forget [EDITED BY R.O.S.E.S.]. Oh wait, we haven't shown that Evil Character yet.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: The Guardian on February 26, 2019, 02:29:05 PM
This is what it takes to beat Green Prophets.

Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Death
Moses (CoW)
Nazareth
Golden Calf

Even then, you might need to get a little lucky to pull out a 5-4 win...  ::)
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Josh on February 26, 2019, 02:53:10 PM
This is what it takes to beat Green Prophets.

Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Death
Moses (CoW)
Nazareth
Golden Calf

Even then, you might need to get a little lucky to pull out a 5-4 win...  ::)

Guys, c'mon, clearly we need to be running Lamentation of Rachel



...although I will say, Jezebel + Overtaken would be legit.  GG Isaiah/Zeke
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: The Guardian on February 26, 2019, 02:55:42 PM
Don't think I haven't thought about building a Syrian defense with Naaman and Lamentation of Rachel... ;)
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: jbeers285 on February 26, 2019, 03:02:51 PM
Don't think I haven't thought about building a Syrian defense with Naaman and Lamentation of Rachel... ;)

LoR in reserve with wages in deck might not be a bad choice
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: TheJaylor on February 26, 2019, 04:09:02 PM
This is what it takes to beat Green Prophets.

Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Death
Moses (CoW)
Nazareth
Golden Calf

Even then, you might need to get a little lucky to pull out a 5-4 win...  ::)
You don't need Golden Calf, but yeah, I can vouch that that works. Not sure about having to get lucky though...  ???
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Reth on February 26, 2019, 04:18:52 PM
This is what it takes to beat Green Prophets.

Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Death
Moses (CoW)
Nazareth
Golden Calf

Even then, you might need to get a little lucky to pull out a 5-4 win...  ::)
You don't need Golden Calf, but yeah, I can vouch that that works. Not sure about having to get lucky though...  ???

But how to deal with Moses (CoW) and Nazarath in your own deck in order not to restrict yourself?
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: The Guardian on February 26, 2019, 04:24:38 PM
You don't need Golden Calf, but yeah, I can vouch that that works. Not sure about having to get lucky though...  ???

I mean there was one critical turn of LS drought... ::)

Golden Calf just provides more consistency of getting one of those counters early on.  :P
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 26, 2019, 04:25:56 PM
This is what it takes to beat Green Prophets.

Confusion of Mind
Covenant with Death
Moses (CoW)
Nazareth
Golden Calf

Even then, you might need to get a little lucky to pull out a 5-4 win...  ::)
You don't need Golden Calf, but yeah, I can vouch that that works. Not sure about having to get lucky though...  ???

But how to deal with Moses (CoW) and Nazarath in your own deck in order not to restrict yourself?

Play a deck that can utilize territory class cloud cards and in-battle speed special abilities for Moses and for Nazareth play a deck that naturally gets most of it's extra cards through drawing, recursion, or Reserve access than straight up deck searches. Also remember it's ok to play cards that get stopped by your own counters since A. you don't need to entirely not care about your own counters you just need them to hurt the opponent more than you and B. the opponent is going to try and negate or remove your counters and once they do you'll be able to go back to playing territory class stuff and searching just like the opponent except now they've spent resources to remove the counters so they've still generated value.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Asahel24601 on February 26, 2019, 10:06:21 PM
Don't think I haven't thought about building a Syrian defense with Naaman and Lamentation of Rachel... ;)

I don't think I know Lamentation of Rachel off the top of my head. Is it a new card or am I missing an old one?
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: The Guardian on February 26, 2019, 10:45:21 PM
It's a card from Women that discards all Green brigade Heroes in play.  8)
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 26, 2019, 11:27:53 PM
Now replying to the actual OP, I'm not a fan of either Jezebel or Foreign Wives. Jezebel I don't see being worth it even in reserve specifically for the prophet matchup since I've tried to build decks with characters who could win battles on their own many times before and the opponent just interrupts and kills your character 99% of the time. If she could shoot a prophet for free I'd probably put her in my Reserve but she still costs a card to use so IMO she's straight up subpar and I can't imagine any deck or meta that I'd run her in. Foreign Wives I've become much less of a fan of very quickly. Too much speed is in a form other than drawing these days and even if I get the auto-block I've just put 7 brigades in play that almost every deck will punish in some way (at the very least with Babel). I have it in the Reserve for a couple decks that have poor Reserve options and plenty of space but it hasn't been in any decklist that I've considered running in a major tournament this year.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Red on February 26, 2019, 11:33:07 PM
Am I missing something with Prophets? They don't seem to be just exceptional.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 26, 2019, 11:38:47 PM
Am I missing something with Prophets? They don't seem to be just exceptional.

Green is just solid overall right now. It has some nice synergy cards, consistency, Reserve access, nice enhancements, etc. There's just a lot of ways to throw green cards together and end up with a deck that performs consistently and runs over outdated or unoptimized decks which makes it feel really strong. I would be surprised if this year's Nats winner is mono green but I would also be surprised if this years Nats winner doesn't run any green.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: The Guardian on February 27, 2019, 02:13:17 AM
Am I missing something with Prophets? They don't seem to be just exceptional.

See now you saying this just makes me want to come down for your tournament and roll the field with my Green Prophets deck, but alas I'm running my own tournament... :P
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Gabe on February 27, 2019, 07:57:19 AM
Am I missing something with Prophets? They don't seem to be just exceptional.

See now you saying this just makes me want to come down for your tournament and roll the field with my Green Prophets deck, but alas I'm running my own tournament... :P

The funny part is that Justin is so talented I’m pretty sure he could “roll the field” at most tournaments with a pre-EC deacons offense if he wanted to. I’m not saying that green prophets aren’t great. But the measuring stick may be a little skewed.  ;) 8) :o ::)
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: The Guardian on February 27, 2019, 10:24:47 AM
Now now, let's not get too carried away...sounds like there's going to be several top players at the Win A Box tournament. While I feel that my experience, knowledge of the game and dedication to deck testing give me a chance to win any tournament I enter, I would never go so far as to guarantee a first place finish... my "roll the field" comment was tongue in cheek since Green Prophets haven't rolled the field in a long long time.  ::)

I'm just truly excited because I think there are many, many different themes viable to the point where they can contend at the highest level tournaments, and I can say for certain that Green Prophets will be among the best options.  :thumbup:
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Reth on February 27, 2019, 01:18:24 PM
I also see green prophets as nearly unbeatable high-flyer ATM since they also utilise star cards more than every other deck concept could do! This in addition to the alread above mentioned advantages makes them to that nearly unbeatable high-flyer concept.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Master Q on February 27, 2019, 02:12:03 PM
It's sad that Judean Mediums (in Reserve) is almost required in defenses nowadays. That said, Reserve evil cards are shot by Green's STAR cards, so there's almost no point in relying on anything in Reserve anymore...

Honestly, this kind of small defense crumbles if the Green gets even a remotely decent draw. Green is now stacked with interrupts aplenty, not even mentioning anything forthcoming (First Sacrifice is Samuel's Edict but better, for some reason?). You're basically hoping to have the better Dom matchup; ie hope the Green doesn't have Grapes or CoF to extend the battle if you decide to block and win, hope you have CM for Ezekiel or Isaiah at the right time (or hope they don't draw their plethora of CBN Enhancements), hope you don't get hit with Cherubim or Elisha when you have a few evil Doms in hand, and hope you're able to do all of that around Jonah and/or Habbakuk.

It's all doable, of course, but it's a pain. And considering most decks should be running the Orphans LS, I wouldn't rely on Bear a lick (not to mention Zeke kills Bear CBN with both his Enhancements, with no effort). Unless you have Love and no one runs Orphans.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Asahel24601 on February 27, 2019, 02:31:23 PM
It's all doable, of course, but it's a pain. And considering most decks should be running the Orphans LS, I wouldn't rely on Bear a lick (not to mention Zeke kills Bear CBN with both his Enhancements, with no effort). Unless you have Love and no one runs Orphans.

So, Carebear with soul negation? Seems doable, if a little difficult. FBTN Lost Soul, Woes, and Moses help there (Though Moses means no love. Hmm)

It's a card from Women that discards all Green brigade Heroes in play.  8)
Assuming the offense is at least somewhat red, I feel like this can hit some of your better heroes (Samuel or Mighty Warrior, depending on your deck style) as well. Though I suppose that's a price to pay for wiping out your opponent's offense.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 27, 2019, 02:40:20 PM
First Sacrifice

inb4 edited by R.O.S.E.S.?
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Bobbert on February 27, 2019, 02:53:38 PM
First Sacrifice


inb4 edited by R.O.S.E.S.?


That one (http://landofredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/004-The-First-Sacrifice.png) was spoiled on LoR on Monday.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 27, 2019, 03:39:33 PM
First Sacrifice


inb4 edited by R.O.S.E.S.?


That one (http://landofredemption.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/004-The-First-Sacrifice.png) was spoiled on LoR on Monday.


Ah, right. Hard to remember that cards can sometimes be found in places besides searching Lackey.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Red on February 27, 2019, 04:21:30 PM
It's sad that Judean Mediums (in Reserve) is almost required in defenses nowadays. That said, Reserve evil cards are shot by Green's STAR cards, so there's almost no point in relying on anything in Reserve anymore...

Honestly, this kind of small defense crumbles if the Green gets even a remotely decent draw. Green is now stacked with interrupts aplenty, not even mentioning anything forthcoming (First Sacrifice is Samuel's Edict but better, for some reason?). You're basically hoping to have the better Dom matchup; ie hope the Green doesn't have Grapes or CoF to extend the battle if you decide to block and win, hope you have CM for Ezekiel or Isaiah at the right time (or hope they don't draw their plethora of CBN Enhancements), hope you don't get hit with Cherubim or Elisha when you have a few evil Doms in hand, and hope you're able to do all of that around Jonah and/or Habbakuk.

It's all doable, of course, but it's a pain. And considering most decks should be running the Orphans LS, I wouldn't rely on Bear a lick (not to mention Zeke kills Bear CBN with both his Enhancements, with no effort). Unless you have Love and no one runs Orphans.
First Sacrifice just seems underwhelming in the face of a ton of other things out there in my opinion.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 27, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
First Sacrifice just seems underwhelming in the face of a ton of other things out there in my opinion.

I assume he's comparing it to edict because it functions similar to edict in that its a negate+character removal that's CBN on one character in your offense (Isaiah in this case) and still a solid battle winner on everyone else, which is a valid comparison. A big strength of prophets is that they have Ezekiel and Isaiah so that's two characters that can play multiple CBN battle winners, some of which also negate/interrupt. Most past offenses only had access to one character with consistent CBN enhancements so Martyr felt like a more solid answer than it does against two characters both that need to be answered without letting them get initiative.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Master Q on February 27, 2019, 05:09:43 PM
First Sacrifice just seems underwhelming in the face of a ton of other things out there in my opinion.

Such as...?

It's easily a more flexible Sam's Edict, which is 100% worse:

Negate an evil or neutral card - hit just about anything your opponent has that can stop your rescue, in battle, territory, or even a capture Art. Stellar. Then you get to choose between 2 abilities that can both win you the battle - Underdeck an evil card from opponent's hand or an opposing card in battle. Either will win if played correctly, and to make it worse you can even use it outside of battle to look at their hand and hinder their block before you even rescue. It even works during side battles to underdeck a Hero, so there's that.

And of course KtD mentioned the CBN on Isaiah, but he neglected to mention the really big one - Benjamin. This is a better Joseph Before Pharaoh, and we all know how good that is. Not to also mention Teal has 2 Heroes to make this CBN. Not to also mention how easily recurred this is.

Given that this does everything Sam's Edict does and more, I fail to see how it isn't an auto-include in decks that use the 3 brigades it's packing, since it is tied to no themes and has no drawbacks. Enlighten me, please.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 27, 2019, 05:15:58 PM
First Sacrifice just seems underwhelming in the face of a ton of other things out there in my opinion.

Such as...?

It's easily a more flexible Sam's Edict, which is 100% worse:

Negate an evil or neutral card - hit just about anything your opponent has that can stop your rescue, in battle, territory, or even a capture Art. Stellar. Then you get to choose between 2 abilities that can both win you the battle - Underdeck an evil card from opponent's hand or an opposing card in battle. Either will win if played correctly, and to make it worse you can even use it outside of battle to look at their hand and hinder their block before you even rescue. It even works during side battles to underdeck a Hero, so there's that.

And of course KtD mentioned the CBN on Isaiah, but he neglected to mention the really big one - Benjamin. This is a better Joseph Before Pharaoh, and we all know how good that is. Not to also mention Teal has 2 Heroes to make this CBN. Not to also mention how easily recurred this is.

Given that this does everything Sam's Edict does and more, I fail to see how it isn't an auto-include in decks that use the 3 brigades it's packing, since it is tied to no themes and has no drawbacks. Enlighten me, please.

I would be happy to see Sacrifices lose green and stick to blue and teal. I know green is the pushed offense this year but I think Isaiah already has plenty of enhancements to play with while blue and teal are the brigades that really lack enhancements of this power. I'm excited to build teal/green just as much as anyone but I think it will be plenty strong without having cards like this that would be cream of the crop enhancements even they were mono-brigade turned into consistency monsters that you can play on every single one of your Heroes in a potentially triple brigade deck.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: The Guardian on February 27, 2019, 05:36:42 PM
Keep in mind that card previews do not guarantee that the card is finalized. We are still testing and evaluating, and First Sacrifice is one of the cards we have our eye on. I agree with pretty much everything Master Q and KtD shared regarding its comparison to Edict, but in fairness I will point out a few things regarding that comparison.

1. Edict discards instead of underdecks. In one game I tested FS, I used it pre-block to underdeck The Deceiver, which ended up resulting in a successful rescue (however I did need to have another battle winner in hand as well). However, thanks to a shuffle and some extra drawing, my opponent had The Deceiver back in his hand the very next turn.

2. Edict is a winner for the key Hero in a massive drawing engine (Samuel) and a Hero who can become CBN protected from everything (Gideon).

3. Edict is mono-brigade (which is an advantage in T2) whereas tri-brigade is more of an advantage in T1.

Personally I believe FS needs to be toned down in some way, but further testing is certainly warranted before making any changes.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Kevinthedude on February 27, 2019, 05:50:49 PM
Keep in mind that card previews do not guarantee that the card is finalized. We are still testing and evaluating, and First Sacrifice is one of the cards we have our eye on. I agree with pretty much everything Master Q and KtD shared regarding its comparison to Edict, but in fairness I will point out a few things regarding that comparison.

1. Edict discards instead of underdecks. In one game I tested FS, I used it pre-block to underdeck The Deceiver, which ended up resulting in a successful rescue (however I did need to have another battle winner in hand as well). However, thanks to a shuffle and some extra drawing, my opponent had The Deceiver back in his hand the very next turn.

2. Edict is a winner for the key Hero in a massive drawing engine (Samuel) and a Hero who can become CBN protected from everything (Gideon).

3. Edict is mono-brigade (which is an advantage in T2) whereas tri-brigade is more of an advantage in T1.

Personally I believe FS needs to be toned down in some way, but further testing is certainly warranted before making any changes.

This may be an opinion already shared by the design team but usually hope to see cards with multiple brigades be less powerful than those with fewer. When I'm building a dual brigade deck, I should have to make a choice between running the most powerful enhancements and running the most consistent enhancements. I should not be able to look at a card and say "Oh neat, this card fits my decks synergy points (star/cloud/book reference used to make things CBN like Judges, Ezekiel, and Isaiah), can be played on every single one of my Heroes, and consistently outperforms nearly all other competing enhancements even without utilizing it's available synergy options.

I really like the amount of in play brigade punishment cards and search counters being printed since I now have to regard Heroes with brigades I don't need as a cost and strategies with huge amounts of searching as punishable rather than consistent, but extra brigades on enhancements is mostly still just a benefit, and a powerful one at that.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Red on February 27, 2019, 07:34:35 PM
First Sacrifice just seems underwhelming in the face of a ton of other things out there in my opinion.

Such as...?

It's easily a more flexible Sam's Edict, which is 100% worse:

Negate an evil or neutral card - hit just about anything your opponent has that can stop your rescue, in battle, territory, or even a capture Art. Stellar. Then you get to choose between 2 abilities that can both win you the battle - Underdeck an evil card from opponent's hand or an opposing card in battle. Either will win if played correctly, and to make it worse you can even use it outside of battle to look at their hand and hinder their block before you even rescue. It even works during side battles to underdeck a Hero, so there's that.

And of course KtD mentioned the CBN on Isaiah, but he neglected to mention the really big one - Benjamin. This is a better Joseph Before Pharaoh, and we all know how good that is. Not to also mention Teal has 2 Heroes to make this CBN. Not to also mention how easily recurred this is.

Given that this does everything Sam's Edict does and more, I fail to see how it isn't an auto-include in decks that use the 3 brigades it's packing, since it is tied to no themes and has no drawbacks. Enlighten me, please.
A Series of Thoughts

1. I totally missed the reference and generally have glossed over star Isaiah. So my bad.
2. I think this card is in the same ballpark as all Edictesque cards. I would argue that cards like Faith and Overcome! are on the whole better cards than Edict derivatives due to consistency and recursion.
3. Being Tri-Brigade is a hinderance, not a help.
Title: Re: Anti Meta Defensive thoughts
Post by: Josh on March 08, 2019, 08:37:10 AM
3. Being Tri-Brigade is a hinderance, not a help.

Sure, if you compare a Genesis offense using First Sacrifice to a Judge's offense using Edict, yeah, you'd prefer First Sacrifice to be mono-Blue for various reasons.  Same with a Green or Teal offense compared to a Judge's offense.

BUT...

1. You can run First Sacrifice in any Blue, Green, or Teal deck.  Heck, you could play it in any deck where you have 3-4 heroes that have 1 of those brigades.
2. There are 4 guaranteed CBI/N heroes (Benjamin, Isaiah, Amariah, Josh the HP) and 1 more potential CBN hero (Elisha). 
3. You can even play it preattack if you badly need hand info or if you are trying to make sure your opponent doesn't have a certain evil card in hand.