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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Deck Building & Design => Type 1 Deck Advice => Topic started by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 09:37:12 AM

Title: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 09:37:12 AM: Hi everyone!

I learned a ton playing at the Texas State tournament this weekend, and I have begun browsing lackey to get better handle on ROJ and COW. It seems to me that Golden Sensor and Image of the Beast are clear requirements in this game now. Simply to counter 3 woes. I have never been a fan of the concept of staple cards beyond SoG, AotL, and CM, but you gotta play to win. Or maybe its time sprinkle in more artifact destroying enhancements?
Title: Re: Image of the Beat and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bmc25 on June 28, 2017, 09:41:26 AM: Dominants can't be negated. Both of the cards you mentioned are very good, but they can't negate three woes.
Title: Re: Image of the Beat and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 09:45:49 AM: Ah! Thank you.

Would there be a major concern if you used a Lampstand of the Sanctuary to mitigate Three Woes coming after your heroes? Or is protection super easy to bypass?
Title: Re: Image of the Beat and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 09:50:53 AM: Shoot let me explain a little better, haha.

I found IotB and GS shutting down my artifacts I have in place like cake. (Annoying)
Then 3 Woes shutting down Moses (REALLY ANNOYING) He is one of my major defensive cards because of his ability. I LOVE CoW cards, but is RoJ going to be king from now on?
Title: Re: Image of the Beat and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on June 28, 2017, 09:52:38 AM: you can't protect from being negated. lampstand doesn't stop 3woes or those artifacts from negating anything
Title: Re: Image of the Beat and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 09:54:56 AM: Dang it.... :o

Yeah, still learning Redemption lingo. Okay then, Partners with Demons it is then XD.

But Lampstand of the Sanctuary would protect against CM? Because it discards?
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on June 28, 2017, 09:57:59 AM: Yes lampstand would protect against CM outside of battle
Title: Re: Image of the Beat and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Jeremystair on June 28, 2017, 09:58:04 AM: Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 28, 2017, 09:52:38 AM
you can't protect from being negated. lampstand doesn't stop 3woes or those artifacts from negating anything

Lampstand does protect against the three woes if it's played as an evil dominant.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 10:00:17 AM: That's what I was going for in this instance...now I am confused.
Title: Re: Image of the Beat and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Red Wing on June 28, 2017, 10:02:09 AM: Quote from: Jeremystair on June 28, 2017, 09:58:04 AM
Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on June 28, 2017, 09:52:38 AM
you can't protect from being negated. lampstand doesn't stop 3woes or those artifacts from negating anything

Lampstand does protect against the three woes if it's played as an evil dominant.
Negates target abilities. That's why you can still negate a protected CoW Gideon for example.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 10:08:18 AM: Could you elaborate? Are you referring to 3W?
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Guardian on June 28, 2017, 10:15:31 AM: Lampstand does not protect cards from an evil Three Woes.

As for your trouble with Image and Censer, I would recommend Treasures of War and/or Paying Taxes (especially if they are kind enough to negate your Moses). 8)
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Ironisaac on June 28, 2017, 10:26:56 AM: The black/gold outsiders is nice for getting rid of problematic cards.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Josh on June 28, 2017, 10:34:46 AM: Quote from: Ironisaac on June 28, 2017, 10:26:56 AM
The black/gold outsiders is nice for ~~getting rid of problematic cards~~ rolling over your opponent with its insane ability

Fixed that for you
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 28, 2017, 10:46:49 AM: Haha, thanks ya'll. That last couple posts made me lawl! :laugh:
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Jeremystair on June 28, 2017, 11:22:16 AM: Quote from: The Guardian on June 28, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
Lampstand does not protect cards from an evil Three Woes.

I'm having a hard time understanding why, can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: kariusvega on June 28, 2017, 11:46:02 AM: Quote from: Jeremystair on June 28, 2017, 11:22:16 AM
Quote from: The Guardian on June 28, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
Lampstand does not protect cards from an evil Three Woes.

I'm having a hard time understanding why, can you elaborate?

Negate targets abilities. Same goes for protect Fortresses (Areopagus protects your Greeks from good cards, but they can still be targeted by say a Moses or Golden Censer from territory to be negated even though they couldn't be say discarded or converted)
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Master Q on June 28, 2017, 12:03:24 PM: Quote from: kariusvega on June 28, 2017, 11:46:02 AM
Negate targets abilities. Same goes for protect Fortresses (Areopagus protects your Greeks from good cards, but they can still be targeted by say a Moses or Golden Censer from territory to be negated even though they couldn't be say discarded or converted)

Pretty much this.

As far as IotB and GC are concerned, I don't recall seeing anyone use them besides myself. They're nice, but not staples. If they could stop 3 Woes somehow, they'd probably be staples. ;)

As far as making Moses unstoppable, there's always this:
Spoiler (hover to show)
(https://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/redemption/images/9/91/Joy_%28TEC%29.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140815205447)

I've toyed with using that (in the Reserve) for a certain Hero, but other things have been more useful.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Jeremystair on June 28, 2017, 12:04:24 PM: I get what you're saying except for lampstand of the sanctuary says protect all cards not in battle from Evil dominant. (Grim-Reaper icons) it sounds to me like the cards are protected from the Grim Reaper icon. Kind of like how signet-ring is targeting me as a player. I could see how the three woes could Target lampstand of the sanctuary to negate it's protect ability. But I still don't see how it can Target Moses in a territory if he's protected from Evil dominants. (Grim-Reaper icons)
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: RedemptionAggie on June 28, 2017, 01:22:58 PM: Protection applies to cards, negates target abilities.

Why do you think Three Woes can target a protected Lampstand (because it protects itself), but not anything else it's protecting? If Lampstand is a valid target, so is anything else it's protecting.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Adevine on June 28, 2017, 01:41:02 PM: So what cards would help stop 3woes then? Read all the posts and got confused. :o. Also, for my sake, say I play three woes...so I negate just one card each round, correct?
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on June 28, 2017, 01:51:00 PM: discard it from territory or use CBN/CBI stuff
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Guardian on June 28, 2017, 01:53:22 PM: Abomination of Desolation, Priests of Zeus, ~~Desecrate the Temple~~ and Partners with Demons can hit Woes either as good or evil.

Depending on if its played as good or evil you can use various other enhancements to discard it.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Jeremystair on June 28, 2017, 02:32:16 PM: Quote from: RedemptionAggie on June 28, 2017, 01:22:58 PM
Protection applies to cards, negates target abilities.

Why do you think Three Woes can target a protected Lampstand (because it protects itself), but not anything else it's protecting? If Lampstand is a valid target, so is anything else it's protecting.

So you're saying if gopher wood which protects Noah's Ark is on Noah's Ark you can still negate Noah's Ark and the characters in Noah's Ark just sit there?
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Guardian on June 28, 2017, 02:51:44 PM: That is correct.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: megamanlan on June 29, 2017, 01:37:02 PM: Quote from: The Guardian on June 28, 2017, 01:53:22 PM
Abomination of Desolation, Priests of Zeus, Desecrate the Temple and Partners with Demons can hit Woes either as good or evil.

Depending on if its played as good or evil you can use various other enhancements to discard it.

How can Desecrate hit T3W if it's played as evil? It only drops Good Dominants
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Guardian on June 29, 2017, 01:41:42 PM: Ah right, it does specify good dominant--been awhile since I've used it. Good catch. 8)
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 29, 2017, 01:45:15 PM: Could ya'll explain to me why Joy (EC) can be played on Moses? Doesn't he negate it?
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: TheJaylor on June 29, 2017, 01:50:49 PM: Quote from: bluefrog1288 on June 29, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
Could ya'll explain to me why Joy (EC) can be played on Moses? Doesn't he negate it?
Parts of abilities that make other things Cannot be Negated inherently cannot be negated. So in this case, Moses would be negating the 7/0 increase and protection from decrease on Joy, but not it's "Hero's special ability cannot be negated" part. Michael (Wa, Ki, or AW), Sisera, and Abel's Sacrifice are other examples of cards that cannot be negated for this reason.

What I'm not sure about is whether or not the "place" part of Joy would be negated. I know it can't be negated after it's placed but beforehand, I'm not positive. It's probably in the REG somewhere under "Placed".
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Guardian on June 29, 2017, 01:53:10 PM: Quote from: bluefrog1288 on June 29, 2017, 01:45:15 PM
Could ya'll explain to me why Joy (EC) can be played on Moses? Doesn't he negate it?

If you play Joy in battle and place it on your Moses in territory, Moses would not negate it because his ability is a prevent at that point and Joy has already activated.

Once Joy is placed, the place ability cannot be negated in a later phase (because it has completed). So as long as Joy is placed on Moses it makes him "cannot be negated" and abilities that make other cards "cannot be negated" cannot be negated themselves.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 29, 2017, 01:58:38 PM: Whoa :o

Learning these very precise rules is proving difficult but doable.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Adevine on June 29, 2017, 04:06:37 PM: Quote from: bluefrog1288 on June 29, 2017, 01:58:38 PM
Whoa :o

Learning these very precise rules is proving difficult but doable.

Hang in There! You will get it! :)
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Schaefer on June 29, 2017, 09:25:53 PM: Yeah abilities can be tricky at times but for the original topic concerning iotb and gs things like paying taxes, treasures of war, captured ark, are all decent answers. The priest of Zeus is another great option and is tc cbi so it can be very hard to deal with and isn't necessarily stopped by Moses. The biggest thing about those 2 and 3 woes is that it is harder to depend on cards that just sit in territories. So if they are bothering you that much you can always build around it a bit. I wouldn't say those 3 are staples but you will likely see 1 or 2 for sure in any given deck due to their flexibility.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on June 29, 2017, 09:43:12 PM: Thanks for the advice!

I don't think they bother me as much as I want to get some answer for them. I felt like my deck was SOLID at states, granted I was playing a National Champ, but I feel like my deck's defense got pummeled, just plain pummeled.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Schaefer on June 29, 2017, 10:13:33 PM: Quote from: bluefrog1288 on June 29, 2017, 09:43:12 PM
Thanks for the advice!

I don't think they bother me as much as I want to get some answer for them. I felt like my deck was SOLID at states, granted I was playing a National Champ, but I feel like my deck's defense got pummeled, just plain pummeled.

Yeah defenses are tricky to build since there are so many things on offense that are good and variable. If you send me a pm I can try to address what more specifically gave you issues and some options to consider for the defense you're running.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Guardian on July 14, 2017, 12:33:13 PM: I was thinking more about the original question and while I don't think they are necessarily "staples," I think that if someone does not have a Three Woes, they should definitely run at least one of these two (maybe both if they have room). Personally, if I had a deck that did not have 3 Woes, I would probably run one of them in the main deck and the other in the Reserve (the one in the Reserve depending on what Reserve access I had available in the main deck).

I do have a T1 deck currently built that has 3 Woes and Censer in the main deck and then Image in the Reserve because I have the Brown/Crimson Outsiders as an easy way to pull it out.
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: bluefrog1288 on July 14, 2017, 01:06:18 PM: What do you do if you have opened two boxes and some packs at tournaments and still have gotten either? :laugh: :laugh:
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: The Guardian on July 14, 2017, 01:36:48 PM: Quote from: bluefrog1288 on July 14, 2017, 01:06:18 PM
What do you do if you have opened two boxes and some packs at tournaments and still have gotten either? :laugh: :laugh:

Then it's time to starting making some trades 8)
Title: Re: Image of the Beast and Golden Sensor, Staples?
Post by: Adevine on July 14, 2017, 01:41:34 PM: Quote from: bluefrog1288 on July 14, 2017, 01:06:18 PM
What do you do if you have opened two boxes and some packs at tournaments and still have gotten either? :laugh: :laugh:

Don't feel too bad...I had 3 boxes of ROJ and only got one of each. Now granted my UR pull ability is very good...or so they say on the forums...LOL