Author Topic: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks  (Read 1356 times)

Offline bmc25

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Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« on: August 12, 2019, 02:11:37 PM »
0
I've been out of the game a while, but I try to keep up to date every once in a while.

I noticed that there is a lot of successful genesis Noah's Ark decks.

Could someone point out to me the basics of what makes these offenses so good?

Thanks!
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Offline The Guardian

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #1 on: August 12, 2019, 02:31:25 PM »
+2
The primary strength of the Flood decks is their ability to set up extremely fast. Having Ark down with Noah, Shem and Japheth attacking on turn 1 is a very standard opening for the Flood deck so it is able to put immediate pressure on an opponent. 
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #2 on: August 12, 2019, 02:46:45 PM »
+5
Sure!

In my experience Flood decks do one thing very, very well: set up. As someone who ran a Flood deck this year, I found that 90% of the time if I can find both Noah and Ark on turn one and the first turn after ANB I win the game, especially if I go first.

Going through the heroes of the offense:
Noah is 80% of why this deck sets up fast. Note his wording - the brigade condition doesn't apply to grabbing two flood survivors. If you want a green hero or a crimson evil character you'll need to exchange a green or crimson card, but if you want two flood survivors you can exchange any card you want. Noah will enter battle almost every turn until you have all eight Flood Survivors, and band to whichever ones have the abilities you want (usually Shem and/or Japheth).

Noah's Wife usually sits in territory, but you often want to pull her out early. She not only makes Genesis 6-10 cards CBP (including Flood Survivors and enhancements from this story), but she also gets to negate evil cards any time you put a Survivor in play from hand (including her!). Since there's no time period specified on the negate, they stay until she resets (either by entering battle or leaving play). If you drop her from hand turn 1 and negate a card, and she just sits in your territory without ever being interrupted, that evil card will stay negated the entire game.

Shem does three things: he protects Survivors in your territory (very useful during battle!), he messes with your opponent by making them discard an evil card (sometimes... you tend to get rolling much quicker than your opponent, so if you lay down more evil cards he won't trigger), and he bands to Japheth. Noah+Shem+Japheth is probably the most common rescue with a Flood deck. Also, he triggers his wife; more on her later.

Japheth is probably the second most important hero in the deck, after Noah himself. He lets you look at up to 8 cards from the top of your deck and take one - great for getting exactly what you need, when you need it. You underdeck the rest as well, allowing you to hide souls (and sometimes cry because you can only take one card and don't get to draw the other next turn). He also protects souls from evil cards, which is extremely important, especially since the band's numbers are so big that there's lots of options for chumpy blocks.

Ham is probably the least important of the sons, although he can still be pretty solid. Don't forget to use his search if he's harmed! His wife also makes him a solid rescue, especially if you want initiative.

Shem's Wife is very useful in two different ways. Firstly, she's soul gen - every time you attack with Shem you get to search your opponent's deck for an OT soul (and almost everyone has at least one with Humble). Secondly, she works as an Ahimalek effect - banding or add to battle becomes a battlewinner off her. You Will Remain and Bless the Nations with Shem's Wife have won me several games.

Japheth's Wife may actually be the third most important Flood Survivor. She is very easy battle extension - any time they play a battlewinner just chuck the unfortunate losers from your first rescue to Ark and Japheth's Wife can enter battle. She'll usually get initiative, and you already have a hero in Ark for Rainbow to be CBN.

Ham's Wife is a bit of a sleeper. Her hand look can be extremely valuable (especially since it triggers when she enters play, meaning that if Noah exchanges a card in play for her you get to look before banding). In addition, she's very good with the initiative Ham attack, preventing ECs and protecting him from the first enhancement. Perhaps not the first hero you search out, but valuable all the same.

« Last Edit: August 12, 2019, 02:50:21 PM by Bobbert »
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2019, 03:01:19 PM »
+5
Noah's Ark, of course, is also crucial. Shem and Japheth don't get to use half of their abilities unless it's in play, and once it is any lost battle is just a minor inconvenience.

So, how does it actually work? Depends a bit on who you ask, but again, in my experience it's all about getting off to a blazing fast start and not allowing your opponent to catch up. I have a lot of tutors for both Noah and Ark, and can find both on turn one very consistently. From there, I have a lot of good negates, often relying on the 20/26 band of Noah/Shem/Japheth to see me through early fights. Since my Noah tutors can all hit other survivors, I'll often have all eight out by turn three, and getting to look at eight cards and take one can make sure you have exactly what you need. The Rainbow is an incredible enhancement - this deck meets the unity and it can be recurred by Ark. Often you'll play it off Japheth's Wife after another hero got sent to Ark, making it CBN almost every time.

And, in my version at least, as soon as your opponent gets a chance to catch up (or, in some cases, if you fall behind), you can drop A New Beginning. If you have Pitch and Gopher Wood active on Ark then it and any heroes there stay through it. Everything else gets shuffled and you restart the current phase.
Play it during draw phase to go first with an 11 card hand, getting you off to a very solid start against your newly resourceless opponent.
Play it during upkeep to tick down the "three turns" of a hero of Ark by two (ticks during upkeep, play ANB, new upkeep, ticks again).
Play it during a losing battle to have another chance (although that's much riskier - you don't get a chance to set up during prep, so you have to hope you draw a hero and they draw a soul).
Heck, play it on your opponent's turn to negate protect abilities. You don't get any of the shuffle stuff, but sometimes that lack of protection on their turn can win you the game (and nobody will ever expect it!).
Any way you do it (except that last one  ::)), you'll have a chance to do all your setup all over again, and with how many tutors you're running you'll be back up in no time. Your opponent has to deal with going second, often at a card disadvantage, and having used some or all of their own tutors to set up the first time.
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Offline bmc25

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2019, 03:10:01 PM »
+1
Thank you so much! This makes a lot more sense now.

It's fast, and it's the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

Thanks. I was looking over the special abilities of these cards and was just not seeing how it did so well at nats. Makes a lot more sense now, thanks again.

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Offline crustpope

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2019, 04:19:33 PM »
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Interesting.  Does anyone have a decklist of a typical noahs ark deck?
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2019, 04:28:08 PM »
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Flood decks took third, fourth, and fifth at Nats this year, all with crimson defenses. I took fourth with this one, and Jay took fifth with this list. I don't think JD has posted his third-place deck yet.
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Offline thecoolguy

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2019, 08:15:10 PM »
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Honestly my experience with flood survivors is that they have a crap ton of support cards to set up. Then a huge amount of negates
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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2019, 08:20:00 PM »
+3
Bobbert, the primary thing you left unsaid is the ability of Flood Survivors to win the long game. I typically played longer games with my Flood Survivor build. (The presence of 8 Evil Characters in my main deck should give that away) I also focused more on Faith of Noah and The Flood's presence as "the great equalizers" to win games against speed decks that just throw defense down willy-nilly. Combined with the incessant amount of negates and the ability to recur them off of Noah's Ark, Flood Survivors can either be incredibly explosive, or equalize out and win a game.
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Offline SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 09:27:39 AM »
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I'm glad this post was made.  It gave me a lot more depth to the Flood survivor's since I've only played against it a couple times.  The explanation was great Bobbert thank you (and your addition to Red).
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Offline kariusvega

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 10:41:06 AM »
+1
In hindsight covenant with Adam May be the best flood tool next to the rainbow

I love that flood survivors are so well rounded. Soul gen battle extension unconventional speed a cbn gams speech territory and hand control cbp site access protection  survivability Noah is incredible he can shuffle woes and get it right back with a band it is such a versatile and overall well rounded offense with a ton of evil synergy in only blue and green .. what a fun deck to play! I’ll post my list soon 🦋🌊🕊🌈🛳

I feel like this offense is a great model of standard redemption 💖

Offline Kor

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2019, 10:14:29 PM »
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Nicely done on the explanations, was a good read and I learned some things.  Specifically the Noah’s Wife negate lasting permanently?  That is crazy if true.
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Offline Josh

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2019, 08:13:56 AM »
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Nicely done on the explanations, was a good read and I learned some things.  Specifically the Noah’s Wife negate lasting permanently?  That is crazy if true.

I mean, it's permanent until she leaves territory.  It's no different than Moses negating an Abom or Arrest in Gethsemane in territory as long as he remains in territory.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2019, 08:30:17 AM »
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Nicely done on the explanations, was a good read and I learned some things.  Specifically the Noah’s Wife negate lasting permanently?  That is crazy if true.

I mean, it's permanent until she leaves territory.  It's no different than Moses negating an Abom or Arrest in Gethsemane in territory as long as he remains in territory.

So if she enters battle it resets?  But otherwise with each flood survivor played you pick an additional card to negate?  Or does it only negate one card at a time?
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2019, 09:04:19 AM »
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Nicely done on the explanations, was a good read and I learned some things.  Specifically the Noah’s Wife negate lasting permanently?  That is crazy if true.

I mean, it's permanent until she leaves territory.  It's no different than Moses negating an Abom or Arrest in Gethsemane in territory as long as he remains in territory.

So if she enters battle it resets?  But otherwise with each flood survivor played you pick an additional card to negate?  Or does it only negate one card at a time?
Yes, entering battle resets. Without being reset, she gets to pick an additional card with each Flood Survivor. It's like she slowly becomes a CoW Moses in territory.
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Offline Kor

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2019, 09:06:09 AM »
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Interesting, thanks!
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Offline jhendrix6426

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2019, 03:24:56 PM »
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Noah's Ark, of course, is also crucial. Shem and Japheth don't get to use half of their abilities unless it's in play, and once it is any lost battle is just a minor inconvenience.

So, how does it actually work? Depends a bit on who you ask, but again, in my experience it's all about getting off to a blazing fast start and not allowing your opponent to catch up. I have a lot of tutors for both Noah and Ark, and can find both on turn one very consistently. From there, I have a lot of good negates, often relying on the 20/26 band of Noah/Shem/Japheth to see me through early fights. Since my Noah tutors can all hit other survivors, I'll often have all eight out by turn three, and getting to look at eight cards and take one can make sure you have exactly what you need. The Rainbow is an incredible enhancement - this deck meets the unity and it can be recurred by Ark. Often you'll play it off Japheth's Wife after another hero got sent to Ark, making it CBN almost every time.

And, in my version at least, as soon as your opponent gets a chance to catch up (or, in some cases, if you fall behind), you can drop A New Beginning. If you have Pitch and Gopher Wood active on Ark then it and any heroes there stay through it. Everything else gets shuffled and you restart the current phase.
Play it during draw phase to go first with an 11 card hand, getting you off to a very solid start against your newly resourceless opponent.
Play it during upkeep to tick down the "three turns" of a hero of Ark by two (ticks during upkeep, play ANB, new upkeep, ticks again).
Play it during a losing battle to have another chance (although that's much riskier - you don't get a chance to set up during prep, so you have to hope you draw a hero and they draw a soul).
Heck, play it on your opponent's turn to negate protect abilities. You don't get any of the shuffle stuff, but sometimes that lack of protection on their turn can win you the game (and nobody will ever expect it!).
Any way you do it (except that last one  ::)), you'll have a chance to do all your setup all over again, and with how many tutors you're running you'll be back up in no time. Your opponent has to deal with going second, often at a card disadvantage, and having used some or all of their own tutors to set up the first time.

How does Pitch and Gopher Wood protect Ark and contents against ANB? The first line reads "Negate protect abilities." Seems like that would negate the protection on Ark and its contents. Played last night and realized this and it left me wondering, as I knew I had read on this thread that is stayed through ANB. Just looking for clarification to understand.

Offline Asahel24601

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2019, 03:33:46 PM »
+1
How does Pitch and Gopher Wood protect Ark and contents against ANB? The first line reads "Negate protect abilities." Seems like that would negate the protection on Ark and its contents. Played last night and realized this and it left me wondering, as I knew I had read on this thread that is stayed through ANB. Just looking for clarification to understand.
The "Negate protect abilities" defaults to play, and Pitch and Gopher wood, if on Ark, is in set aside. So the protection isn't negated.

Offline Sean

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2019, 03:35:32 PM »
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Which version of Noah's Ark is better?
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Offline Kevinthedude

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2019, 03:37:30 PM »
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Which version of Noah's Ark is better?

Promo Ark is significantly better for Floor Survivor decks.

Offline MMHobbitWW

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2019, 05:48:54 PM »
-3
I've been out of the game a while, but I try to keep up to date every once in a while.

I noticed that there is a lot of successful genesis Noah's Ark decks.

Could someone point out to me the basics of what makes these offenses so good?

Thanks!

They only work if you have a bunch of people who want to run non-meta decks haha. So yeah you can try and "flood" out tournaments but it is not a strategy capable of winning consistently alone.
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Offline Bobbert

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2019, 06:53:36 PM »
+1
Which version of Noah's Ark is better?

Full Flood decks require the Promo Ark. I'm not sure I'm comfortable using "better" because Ark of Salvation is tremendous in a lot of different decks (seriously, it's one of the cards I initially underrated most in PoC), but since the best part of Ark of Salvation is already available (in battle, at least) on Shem, and Japheth's Wife (one of the best Survivors) only works with Promo Ark, there's only one choice for that deck.

They only work if you have a bunch of people who want to run non-meta decks haha. So yeah you can try and "flood" out tournaments but it is not a strategy capable of winning consistently alone.

Respectfully, I disagree. Flood is extremely versatile, and the fact that three of the eight people in top cut this year ran it shows that it can do a lot. It has a lightning-fast setup, battle extension, plenty of negates, and powerful battlewinners.
If I may ask, what would you consider "meta"? Flood works well against most Throne variants, in my experience, and by my understanding is itself considered a meta deck as well. I'd be curious to hear what you find they struggle against.
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Offline kariusvega

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2019, 07:13:57 PM »
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I've been out of the game a while, but I try to keep up to date every once in a while.

I noticed that there is a lot of successful genesis Noah's Ark decks.

Could someone point out to me the basics of what makes these offenses so good?

Thanks!

They only work if you have a bunch of people who want to run non-meta decks haha. So yeah you can try and "flood" out tournaments but it is not a strategy capable of winning consistently alone.

typically top cut decks are considered meta decks..  ;) clearly, you haven't played against or with competitive flood decks..

what does winning alone mean? it's the model offense in terms of balance and spread utlity between heroes with it's best enhancement being based on unity

Offline MMHobbitWW

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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2019, 10:09:40 PM »
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typically top cut decks are considered meta decks..  ;) clearly, you haven't played against or with competitive flood decks..


Full Flood decks require the Promo Ark. I'm not sure I'm comfortable using "better" because Ark of Salvation is tremendous in a lot of different decks (seriously, it's one of the cards I initially underrated most in PoC), but since the best part of Ark of Salvation is already available (in battle, at least) on Shem, and Japheth's Wife (one of the best Survivors) only works with Promo Ark, there's only one choice for that deck.

They only work if you have a bunch of people who want to run non-meta decks haha. So yeah you can try and "flood" out tournaments but it is not a strategy capable of winning consistently alone.

Respectfully, I disagree. Flood is extremely versatile, and the fact that three of the eight people in top cut this year ran it shows that it can do a lot. It has a lightning-fast setup, battle extension, plenty of negates, and powerful battlewinners.
If I may ask, what would you consider "meta"? Flood works well against most Throne variants, in my experience, and by my understanding is itself considered a meta deck as well. I'd be curious to hear what you find they struggle against.

There are a lot of players that can pilot and pioneer strategies competently, but in general, a true meta deck in Redemption is a deck that has an efficient defense, draws, and searches well. The deck archetype should also have proven itself by placing consistently at Nationals.  It's reasonable to think of the "meta"  differently because of the size of this game.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 10:12:29 PM by MMHobbitWW »
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Re: Explain to me Noah's Ark decks
« Reply #24 on: September 20, 2019, 05:43:08 AM »
+1


typically top cut decks are considered meta decks..  ;) clearly, you haven't played against or with competitive flood decks..


Full Flood decks require the Promo Ark. I'm not sure I'm comfortable using "better" because Ark of Salvation is tremendous in a lot of different decks (seriously, it's one of the cards I initially underrated most in PoC), but since the best part of Ark of Salvation is already available (in battle, at least) on Shem, and Japheth's Wife (one of the best Survivors) only works with Promo Ark, there's only one choice for that deck.

They only work if you have a bunch of people who want to run non-meta decks haha. So yeah you can try and "flood" out tournaments but it is not a strategy capable of winning consistently alone.

Respectfully, I disagree. Flood is extremely versatile, and the fact that three of the eight people in top cut this year ran it shows that it can do a lot. It has a lightning-fast setup, battle extension, plenty of negates, and powerful battlewinners.
If I may ask, what would you consider "meta"? Flood works well against most Throne variants, in my experience, and by my understanding is itself considered a meta deck as well. I'd be curious to hear what you find they struggle against.

There are a lot of players that can pilot and pioneer strategies competently, but in general, a true meta deck in Redemption is a deck that has an efficient defense, draws, and searches well. The deck archetype should also have proven itself by placing consistently at Nationals.  It's reasonable to think of the "meta"  differently because of the size of this game.
The issue with your thesis is that Flood Suvivors does all of the above. They also are doing it in the face of counters. AND they have taken third at the past two nationals, one of which when only like one person played it. Not to mention, flood made top cut at top seed, and landed more copies in cut than throne. Also, more throne was present at the tournament than flood.
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