Cactus Game Design Message Boards

Hey, just wondering everyone's opinion on this deck, and improvement advice. It's a fairly sturdy deck, has held off quite well in a couple of games. Defense seems a bit flaky though.

Cards in deck: 64
Lost Souls: 8
   Lost Soul (anti-ignore)
   Lost Soul (Female Only)
   Lost Soul (same reference)
   Lost Soul (shame)
   Lost Soul (shuffler)
   Lost Soul (Shut Door)
   Lost Soul (Wanderer)
   Lost Souls (3-line)

Lamb Dominants: 5
   Angel of the Lord
   Grapes of Wrath
   Harvest Time
   New Jerusalem
   Son of God

Grim Reaper Dominants: 5
   Burial
   Christian Martyr
   Destruction of Nehushtan
   Falling Away
   Mayhem

Fortresses: 1
   Storehouse

Artifacts: 4
   Chariot of Fire
   Gifts of the Magi
   Hidden Treasures
   Samaritan Water Jar

White Covenant Cards: 1
   Rain Becomes Dust (Gray)

Multi-Color Heroes: 2
   Daniel (Green/White)
   Samuel (Gold/Green)

Silver Heroes: 8
   Angel at Shur
   Angel with the Secret Name
   Atteding Angel
   Cherubim
   Cherubim
   Seraph
   Seraph with a Live Coal
   The Angel Under the Oak

Gold Heroes: 2
   Good Samaritan
   Watchful Servant

Green Heroes: 1
   Isaiah

Multi-Color Hero Enhancements: 7
   Drawn Sword (Green/Crimson)
   Forest Fire (Green/Crimson)
   Isaiah's Call (Green/Silver)
   Live Coal (Green/Silver)
   Razor (Green/Pale Green)
   Siegeworks (Green/Pale Green)
   Spiritual Warfare (Green/Silver)

Silver Hero Enhancements: 3
   Angel's Sword
   Death of Firstborn
   Striking Herod

Gold Hero Enhancements: 1
   Kindness

Crimson Evil Characters: 5
   Archers of Kedar
   King Belshazzar
   Nebuchadnezzar
   Nebushasban
   Nergalsharezer

Black/Orange Evil Characters: 2
       The Goat with Horn
       The Winged Leopard

Crimson Evil Enhancements: 6
   Belshazzar's Banquet
   Dream
   Head of Gold
   Imitating Evil
   Large Tree
   Swift Horses

Black Evil Enhancements: 2
   Abomination of Desolation
   Wrath of Satan

The two greek ec's

RTS has a nasty habit of not letting multi-brigade evil characters show up on the deck summary.

Yeah, that's really annoying. Back on topic, I'd try to focus your offense to one theme.

Right now you have more cards than you have lost souls for. Also, you have way too many silver heroes. Drop Angel with a Secret Name and the old Cherubim.

I thought it was 7 ls for a 57 card deck, and 8 for a 64 card deck?

yikes. well I need to get rid of one card .I guess angel with secret name hasn't helped all that much. I usually just use him to get out samuel. I'd rather not keep reducing my angels though if at all possible as this was SUPPOSED to be a mainly angel offense. At least that's how it started out

I was really wanting to add king david and king saul to use with samuel to be able to draw more. is this feasible? if so, what would I swap? Also, i'd rather not get rid of the old cherubim as he works really well against gardenciples.

I would.  The extra draws with Sam are nice (you've already got plenty of ways to pull him out.  Swap Kindness for Sam's Edict, and drop WS, SWJ and Samaritan.

I'd take out the Black. You won't get initiative to play those enhancements and you only have one forced draw ability for Abom.

I agree. Don't play Abomb unless your whole thing around it.

Gifts doesn't really seem to fit, especially with no Hur. Unholy Writ would be better, IMO.

Actually it's there for the same reason as RBD and Abomination. Almost everyone I play draws insanely.

Actually, except in the last 2 games against RTSManiac when I couldn't draw them, they helped immensely. Even if the DoN'd either RBD or Gifts, i'd still be able to either stop them through speeding through their deck, or at least help me get through mine just as quick.

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 08, 2012, 01:12:42 PM

Gifts is there for drawing off of Kindness, I think.  You'd need much more forced drawing to justify it.

I have found this to be entirely untrue, you can generally rely on your opponents' having at least some drawing in their decks, and usually a lot of it.

But splashing it isn't effective. Any competent speed deck will have Captured Ark, and outside of a lucky draw, odds are, your opponent will draw both DoN and Captured Ark by the time you draw both RBD and Gifts of the Magi. Not to mention Foreign Sword.

It's two cards that have a  VERY beneficial effect once played. besides, Captured Ark just shuffles them in, not discard. So you can get them back. Also, I found that people would rather DoN my Chariots than my RBD or Gifts.

but if you are playing against a speed deck, they probably will have will won by the time you draw it again & if not, they can always use CA again. The bottom line is that while it may occasionally be beneficial, it's not consistently good enough to use.

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 08, 2012, 04:32:34 PM

It's two cards that have a  VERY beneficial effect once played. besides, Captured Ark just shuffles them in, not discard. So you can get them back. Also, I found that people would rather DoN my Chariots than my RBD or Gifts.

To emphasize, in our own game, you only got a D3 off of me.

People (yourself included) will include 4-drachma coin in decks to get a D4 that kills the artifact AND requires another card in play to get that draw, yet getting "only a D3" with a card that stays up until your opponent has to either use their DoN or Captured Ark on it can't be justified to be included?

Quote from: Drrek on February 08, 2012, 08:48:49 PM

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 08, 2012, 05:29:02 PM

Quote from: LordZardeck on February 08, 2012, 04:32:34 PM

It's two cards that have a  VERY beneficial effect once played. besides, Captured Ark just shuffles them in, not discard. So you can get them back. Also, I found that people would rather DoN my Chariots than my RBD or Gifts.

To emphasize, in our own game, you only got a D3 off of me.

People (yourself included) will include 4-drachma coin in decks to get a D4 that kills the artifact AND requires another card in play to get that draw, yet getting "only a D3" with a card that stays up until your opponent has to either use their DoN or Captured Ark on it can't be justified to be included?

Because it isn't reliant on the other player.

I'd make the argument that Gifts is all that reliant on the other player either, how many decks, at least competitive ones, that don't implement at least a fair amount of drawing (I'll give you one, Genesis, which still has a couple drawing cards.)

Quote from: Drrek on February 08, 2012, 02:15:22 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on February 08, 2012, 01:12:42 PM

Gifts is there for drawing off of Kindness, I think.  You'd need much more forced drawing to justify it.

I have found this to be entirely untrue, you can generally rely on your opponents' having at least some drawing in their decks, and usually a lot of it.

But splashing it isn't effective. Any competent speed deck will have Captured Ark, and outside of a lucky draw, odds are, your opponent will draw both DoN and Captured Ark by the time you draw both RBD and Gifts of the Magi. Not to mention Foreign Sword.

Statements like these are really starting to bother me.

I'll start this by saying that is probably just an example of me getting stuck in my ways, which I have a habit of doing, and I apologize if anyone took offense to the finality in my tone. Now that said, I mostly stick by that statement, and here's why: Redemption does have staple cards for different deck archetypes, and there are at least a few top players who would agree that Captured Ark is an absolute staple in any speed deck, at least in this meta, where artifacts like Rain Becomes Dust, Household Idols, and Hezekiah's Signet Ring can mess up an offense significantly. Even a card like Unholy Writ, which almost every deck uses, can be a big annoyance if not taken care of. It's important to be able to do deal with these quickly, and DoN can't always do the trick, especially with Lampstand out so much. I guess it's the equivalent of a card like Harvest Time. Some people don't use it if they don't have room, but more than a few people wouldn't be caught dead without it.

My problem is not in the statement that speed decks should have captured ark. Although I've never played it (mostly because I don't have one) I understand that it should be in every deck. It was in the wording. When you say something like "Every competent speed deck..." You thereby imply that anyone not playing the card is incompetent and doesn't know what they're doing. I don't mind telling new players that X card should probably be in their deck, that's what this section of the forum is for, but when it's worded in a way that can easily come across as demeaning it really shouldn't be said.

My sentiments exactly.  CA is a great card, and is in many speed decks, but that doesn't mean it should be in all of them.  Nor does it mean that a deck without it is "incompetent."

Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Any deck without Son of God is incompetent. Here's to you, Gabe .

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 09, 2012, 01:53:16 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 01:46:49 PM

Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit there?

I'm saying there's no artifact that poses a threat to a speed deck.

Well, Covenant with Death comes to mind, and Unholy Writ and Magic Charms can be inconveniences, especially in TGT and Gardensciples decks. I'm not saying that there are any artifacts that can full-on stop a speed deck, however, there are plenty - including ones that are very commonly used - that can hinder a speed deck, and you'll almost always have a reason to use it at least once, even if just as a potential to get your opponent to use DoN, which means it's almost always worth a slot.

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on February 09, 2012, 01:53:16 PM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 01:46:49 PM

Lol. Captured Ark is overrated in speed decks. Necessary for turtles, but not speed decks. You should have answers to any artifact they can throw at you.

Do you want to elaborate a little bit there?

I'm saying there's no artifact that poses a threat to a speed deck.

To me the only artifact that poses a threat to all speed decks is Rain Becomes Dust.  However specific speed decks have artifacts that pose threats to them (such as Sam has troubles with Household Idols or Hezekiah's signet ring), but I agree that captured ark is far from necessary in all speed decks.

Quote from: Ring Wraith on February 09, 2012, 04:12:34 PM

Covenant of Death shouldn't slow a speed deck significantly. If anything, it stops banding and gives CM a block. Unholy Writ and Charms can easily be countered by Blue Tassels, which is a much better card to use instead of Captured Ark due to unlimited usage and assuredly getting around Charms. CA just shuffles the other artifact while Charms remains up.

In a speed deck though, any possible advantage to get a turn ahead is a huge one. Giving CM a block can be game changing as many speed v. speed games end up with one of the decks winning by one turn. Covenant with Death rips through Samuel decks against any defense that's a decent size and well-built, and having a way to stop it can indeed be the difference between winning or losing, since a 14/14 band can only go so far (Household Idols also is devastating to Sam decks). I'd rather use Captured Ark over Blue Tassels because Captured Ark is more versatile. I don't believe Magicians are common enough to justify using Tassels over Ark, since that is the only artifact I can think of off the top of my head that would be worth it in general speed decks over Ark in some circumstances.

Disagree. There are TONS of options for getting a turn ahead, and the chances of them actually paying off are slim.

The thing about all of this is it all depends on the draw. They have to draw CwD fast for it to properly hinder you, and that'd be extremely early, considering how fast Samuel is. If they get it that early, you're probably not going to get CA anyway.

Additionally, I've seen Charms many times. I've yet to see CwD. The commonality is subjective.

Note: You may be referring to the inferior red/purple (considering the 14/14 comment) Sam decks. The Teal/Green/Gold variation is much better, IMO, and definitely less hindered by CwD (one reason why I think it's better).

I'm done debating this. We'll see at NationalsinTNwhich is superior.

Also be aware that Blue Tassels stops you from soulgenning with TAS.