Cactus Game Design Message Boards

How useful have you found Jahaziel to be? I remember in our game, you just put him in Kerith Ravine, and never actually used him (though our game was, by your own admission, one that you played poorly in). I would think he'd be very non-dependable, especially with no support, so you might get one shot to use him.

Also, Bronze Laver seems a little out of place. It can help you draw, sure, but unlike Hur+Gifts and Pentecost, the drawing comes at a cost. Without demons, I've always thought of Laver as a liability as much as an asset, as the evil cards you put under your deck might end up being the ones you could use.

I would replace those with Harvest Time and Samaritan Water Jar. Obviously, Harvest Time isn't the staple it once was, and The Woman at the Well is often more dependable, but an Abom strategy can be really hurt by the territory discard LS, which I've seen to be increasingly common in TGT decks (which are still everywhere). Both SWJ and HT can eliminate that problem, and have other benefits on the side.

what's jahaziel's ability? is he a promo?

Jahaziel is a contingency. Really, his main purpose is to recur Meeting the Messiah via Battle Prayer. Originally, there were many more Judges in this deck, and he was also used to place SS. When I changed deck formats, I never really considered taking him out, but perhaps he and the Ravine could make way for more useful cards. I like Ehud's Dagger (especially now that Moses is a Judge) and something extra for Site access (I occasionally get locked out with no cards in opponent's hand or deck).

I would definitely recommend Ehud's Dagger. It seems that 98% of decks I've played in the past who knows how long includes KoT. Our lengthy fight to make KoT a king also resulted in making Ehud's Dagger that much more awesome.

Site access would also be a good idea. I would suggest Priestly Crown as any site deck worth it's salt can get rid of access sites, but a Priestly Crown with Lampstand in the Temple is much harder to get rid of.

Laver is useful beyond belief. It's essential to this deck that I get Abom placed ASAP, and with the amount of speed elements the turnover is really high. In addition, if I have PO out, I can Laver four EC's with impunity, and once Abom is placed I can Laver the other Greek. Also, most of my Enhancements are redundant negates. Long story short, I get a LOT of use out of this Artifact.

I don't like HT for this deck because it has such a high probability of being a useless card, between Hur, WatW, Feast of Trumpets, Mayhem etc. SWJ seems kind of useless unless I also add DD. Perhaps if I add Generous Leper and more roguish Gold elements, it would make more sense, but atm I don't see it doing much.

Good points.

I am considering taking out SS. I don't think I've ever used it. The only think I'm balking at is that it's pretty much a win used by Moses.

In that case, you'd probably be better served with Covenant with Moses. It is great for numbers, and doubles as a way to get around Unholy Writ for a turn or two. The one nice thing about SS is that if you place it with Jahaziel it is essentially a CBN way to get rid of any protect fort except High Priests's Palace, which clears the way for Judges Seat. But Abom should be able to handle that anyway.

Ooh, doesn't it also stop Burial Shroud? I've been frustrated a few games when I was able to Abom my way to a walkthrough, only to have BS pulled on me, during which time my opponent was able to draw defense. That's a good idea.

As far as Site Access, I was thinking Land Dispute. Unlike other Site Access, it's not useless against an opponent who doesn't play Sites, and is a good failsafe against TGT and Z-Temple if my Abom isn't able to get rid of them.

I'd also like to find a way to fit Torment in, along with Worship of Milcom. 12/12 Amon recurring Foolish Advice is yum. What do you think of that idea?

Good point on Land Dispute. It has so many uses, it'd be silly not to have it.

12/12 Amon recurring Foolish Advice is fine, but a 3/4 Amon recurring it to use next time with TFG is okay too. You can try it, but I'd bet you get to use it in a very limited amount of games.

Torment might be nice though, in case your opponent gets to your greeks before you use Abom.

Were this deck 63 cards, I think W@M would fit, but being only 56, your slots are too precious to spend on a card you really only want to use on one EC and has minimal value if that EC is lost before it shows up. If you are looking for a way to boost Amon, I would rather use Gates of Jerusalem to keep him protected, allow you to draw a card when he blocks and give his ability CBN status.

Yep, Judean King.

That's what I like about Pushed Back: only Asahel can protected.

Here is the revised version. I still want Gates of Jerusalem, but I can't figure out what to remove for it.

Cards in deck: 56
Lost Souls: 7
   Lost Soul (discarder)
   Lost Soul (female only)
   Lost Soul (N.T. only)
   Lost Soul (revealer)
   Lost Soul (shuffler)
   Lost Soul (Wanderer)
   Lost Souls (2-line)

Lamb Dominants: 4
   Angel of the Lord
   Grapes of Wrath
   New Jerusalem
   Son of God

Grim Reaper Dominants: 3
   Christian Martyr
   Destruction of Nehushtan
   Mayhem

Fortresses: 4
   High Places
   Judge's Seat
   Philistine Outpost
   Zerubbabel's Temple

Artifacts: 6
   Chariot of Fire
   Gifts of the Magi
   Lampstand of the Sanctuary
   The Bronze Laver
   Three Nails
   Urim and Thummim

White Covenant Cards: 1
   Flee from Enemies (Black)

Gold Covenant Cards: 1
   Covenant with Moses

Multi-Color Heroes: 2
   Joiada, Son of Eliashib (Teal)
   Joshua the High Priest (Teal)

Gold Heroes: 5
   Eli the Priest
   Moses
   The Generous Widow
   The Woman at the Well
   Zaccheus

Green Heroes: 1
   Hur

Multi-Color Hero Enhancements: 3
   Feast of Trumpets
   Pentecost
   Zeal for the Lord (Teal)

Gold Hero Enhancements: 5
   Battle Prayer
   Convincing Miracle
   Ehud's Dagger
   Meeting the Messiah
   Repentance and Restitution

Black Evil Characters: 5
   King Amon
   Manasseh
   Philistine Armor Bearer
   Philistine Garrison
   The Twelve-Fingered Giant

Greeks: 2
   Antiochus IV Epiphanes
   The Winged Leopard

Black Evil Enhancements: 7
   Abomination of Desolation
   Bringing Fear
   Devourer
   Foolish Advice
   Joseph in Prison
   Land Dispute
   Pushed Back

Here is the revised version. I still want Gates of Jerusalem, but I can't figure out what to remove for it.

Flee from Enemies?  U&T?

My overall problem with the deck is that it seems too weak on defense to be as slow as it is.  Unless you get the Joiada, Pentecost, Z-temple combo or TBL+defense out early this deck won't be going very fast.  If you have a game where any of the first 3 cards and TBL are on the bottom of the deck, I think this deck will crawl.

So if your deck is slow, then you need either a ton of defense to stop an opposing speed deck long enough for your offense to win, or a ton of offense so that you are taking 1 LS each turn, too.  A lot of your offense is built on forcing your opponent to draw (to activate A-Bom) instead of winning battles.  As such I don't think it's even close to capable of taking a LS every turn.  But on the flip side, your defense isn't huge either.  7 ECs can hide in a draw pretty well too at times.  PO will help, but I just don't think enough.

This is a good deck and you are a good player, so I still think this will win you most games.  However, I think that if you play a well built speed deck played by another good player that you'll lose most of the time.

Excellent points, Mark. Perhaps I will remove FfE would be a good one to take out. However, both of those two cards go a long way toward addressing the points you subsequently bring up.

This deck is actually one of the fastest decks I've ever played with. If I get any one of: Laver, Mayhem, Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets (esp. with Gifts), Gifts plus any card drawing combo, Meeting the Messiah, or TGW I have a way of either cycling a lot of cards or drawing repeatedly. Besides that, Zaccheus winnows my deck, PO winnows my deck (and gets defense out faster), Eli winnows my deck, and Mayhem can be used as a panic button. I've never played a game where I've never gotten ANY of these. But if I did, I think it would be ok because of my second point:

My offense doesn't need Abom to win. U&T lets me check for a guaranteed rescue, Three Nails makes that more likely, Moses has often won me games single-handedly, Z-Temple+Joshua has won me many souls without even having to use Zeal (Judge's Seat to snipe the big guys, then go in protected from everything against the little ones), I have two (now sometimes three) CBN battle-winners in Gold, my territory destruction is fair even without Abom, and I've even won a few rescues by Huring/Mayheming someone hiding EC's in hand and getting stuck with none to block with. Speaking of which, my third point:

The defense is better than it looks on paper. Garrison+Flee from Enemies+Lampstand+my BUNCH of Negates=Impervious to everything but CBN ITB+Wins, all of which are Discards and only work once, while I can recur. I get a lot of blocking power out of the Greeks band+Negates as well (especially since only Zeal and AoCP can kill both at once), and Amon is a GREAT late-game infini-blocker w/Pushed Back. PO (which can be tutored) gives me a stream of blockers, and I can only recall one game I've had a few turns with no way to block (but fortunately, my opponent was BS'ing in hopes of drawing a blocker I hadn't killed yet and I got PO in that time). Between that and the massive amount of cycling/drawing I do, I don't worry about my defense's power. And if I get into trouble, I can use Abom defensively (I can't tell you how many times I've Abom'd TGT). Do you have any objections to my logic?

@Bryon, I would love to have Martha in here as well, but I can't think of any card she would be more useful than. Perhaps if I end up taking out Flee (I rarely use it, for some reason) and Three Nails (unlikely), I could fit her in with Gates, but perhaps you see another card I could take out?

What do you do when all of your Philistines are converted via Holy Grail and Meeting the Messiah?

Kirk

Attack with one and play Grapes on whoever they block with.

@Bryon, I would love to have Martha in here as well, but I can't think of any card she would be more useful than. Perhaps if I end up taking out Flee (I rarely use it, for some reason) and Three Nails (unlikely), I could fit her in with Gates, but perhaps you see another card I could take out?

the woman at the well, or even generous widow. martha will accomplish the exact same thing as generous widow since abom will only activate once off her, and you dont have to ditch cards in the process. it seems every card plays a significant role towards the deck, so choosing 2 cards to dis could be detrimental.

Yeah, but Ffe + Garrison = Nigh invincible, recurable block.

Oh I realize that or play Christian Martyr on your converted character.  It just isn't opportune.

If PAB gets converted I just exchange him, and if either of the other two get converted I just attack with them. They either give me a lost soul or kill the character, putting it back where I can recur it.

the woman at the well, or even generous widow. martha will accomplish the exact same thing as generous widow since abom will only activate once off her, and you dont have to ditch cards in the process. it seems every card plays a significant role towards the deck, so choosing 2 cards to dis could be detrimental.

Both of those Heroes are far better than Martha. WatW ensures a LS supply and targets for Jseat and MtM. TGW is brute when combined with U&T or Gifts, and as far as my cards not being expendable, I can Discard Philistines, Manasseh and Heroes all day. I have never had to Discard a card I needed with her, and I use her more than any other Hero.

However, having realized that Amon works when converted, I'm tempted to put Holy Grail in instead of Gates. In fact, idk why I didn't think of this a long time ago.

Well, here is my thing with Amon. His recursion potential is HUGE, but I almost never get to use with him because I typically have a better block. In other words, most of the time I'd rather block with Garrison, Greek band, or 12FG. If he is a Hero, I get to use his recursion without risking losing a LS. If it's near endgame, he's got a CBN convert, and can use the Furnace of God's Wrath I just put in for Battle Prayer (another card that was joined at the hip to Jahziel).