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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Strategies and Combos => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on August 03, 2010, 06:31:17 PM
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So, I've been looking at silver brigade lately, and I've realized something. Over the past few sets, silver has gotten almost nothing compared to every other brigade. It has no solid strategy to play with, most of its battle winners are far too specific to be of use in most cases, and it only has a handful of heroes worth using.
I mean, lets look through the past 3 sets and see what silver got:
Attending Angel - An ok hero, nice for dealing with placed evil enhancements.
Angel of Warning - Fort searching and playing is nice... but silver only has one fort worth using.
Consuming Fire - This only stops annoying characters and weapons for one turn, but not their battle winners.
Angel of the Harvest - Deck Discarder, kind of a random hero to put in silver if you ask me. Fun hero though.
Striking Herod - One of silvers better enhancements. Still limited against women or demons.
Seraph - CBN band to another brigade... why does silver never band to itself?
Wickedness Removed - This card is fun, but it can be hit or miss.
Angel of God - Some decent protection, but again its designed to work with another brigade.
Fire Smoke and Sulfur - A nice battle winner.
The Destroyer - mainly useful in combos. Other then that, its only an OK card.
Burning Censer - Still doesn't kill evil characters, and requires two brigades to use the other half.
Gabriel Meets Zecharias - An ok card that might see more use when NT themes are strengthened.
That is all that silver has gotten in the past 3 sets. None of them have formed any sort of a strategy, most are only "OK" in usefulness, and quite a few are not designed for pure silver offenses.
My question to the PTB is this, when can we expect silver to be useful by itself again? The only heroes it has that are worth using (WITHOUT another brigade) are... Mike, CotH, TSA, Gabe, Angel of the Harvest, maybe Paladin and Arriana... thats about it. Next time angels get some cards, can we get some that support a solid silver offense? Orange used to be a "support" brigade purely due to how few cards it had, but now it can stand up on its own. I'm sure some people can still make it work, but silver really does not have any solid strategy to use.
My final question: Why are demons stronger then angels now? I thought the good themes were always supposed to be stronger then the evil themes, but the opposite proves true in this case.
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For the present time the general consensus of the play test team is that silver cards are going to encourage angels to be used in combination with some other brigade. Many of the cards you listed fall into that category. Expect more of the same this year.
This also similar to what we've seen with the recent releases for teal priests.
I personally would like to see silver receive cards that encourage a single brigade offense. It's just a matter of convincing the other elders. :)
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...and yet demons have been made to be a powerful standalone defense.....
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You had me convinced during play-testing for what its worth. Bryon shot down the epic card I suggested :)
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I wouldn't mind silver being a support brigade... if it actually had a unique strategy of its own. At the moment, its just sort of a melting pot of all the other offensive strategies, but not as good.
I wouldn't mind a strong protection theme (to protect the other brigades it's mixed with), along with some strong anti-demon stuff (due to how strong demons are now, this could be a reason to use silver).
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An angel that could use a choice of brigade enhancements (a la User of Curious Arts & Deceiving Spirit) would help the support role.
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I've always thought to myself that Silver has not been getting good cards because of the power of the Warrior's angels (Mike, Gabe, CotH, TSA). Those heroes are basically OP and have been ever since they were released. There's almost no reason NOT to use them in a deck that has Silver. I can see the same thing happening to Teal, which was clearly powerful after one release. Cards like Josh the HP, Phinehas, Zeal, Trumpet Blast, the set asides, etc. are basically OP as well, and Teal will probably not get very good boosts until their relative power is decreased. Both Silver and Teal were created to be powerful and useful in their first release... Perhaps the cards were overdone? :)
Just my two cents.
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I actually have an Angel/Demon deck right now that's pretty solid. It has won about 75% of its games so far (two of the three or four losses being because of Prince of the Air), so I can't complain too much about Angels' lack of power. However, I can't help but notice that most of the sets have had a little bit of standalone stuff and a little bit of human support stuff for Angels, with a continuing lack of either theme or power. Although I'd like to see some more stuff for angels to be their own thing, I'm fine with angels being a support brigade. But right now all the human support stuff is pretty much just basic banding characters, and all the standalone stuff is super bland and often not very powerful. I think we need to go one way or the other here.
That's my two cents.
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I would give you my two cents but I can't find the other penny right now. :p
Bibically, though, aren't angels mainly support (eg giving a message, protecting, aiding) for the person who God is either using or is trying to reach. Basically, do angels bibically share the gospel of Christ and help lead some one to salvation or do they mainly aid the person who God is using (hope that makes sence)?
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Ooooo...... that's deep. ;D
Can we have our namesake Nationals card include, "May band to an angel?" I need the support. ;)
Actually, come to think of it. God already sent me an angel. Hot wife, ftw!
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Actually, come to think of it. God already sent me an angel. Hot wife, ftw!
oooooooooooooooh, cheesy line ftw.
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Actually, come to think of it. God already sent me an angel. Hot wife, ftw!
oooooooooooooooh, cheesy line ftw.
They come in handy after 17 years of marriage. ;)
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Actually, come to think of it. God already sent me an angel. Hot wife, ftw!
oooooooooooooooh, cheesy line ftw.
They come in handy after 17 years of marriage. ;)
I guess that the three year mark for cheesy comments = rolling of eyes :P
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i usually just get laughed at. i probably need to work on my execution.
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Silver users are bums. One could say they need to get a Job >:c.
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... do angels bibically share the gospel of Christ and help lead some one to salvation or do they mainly aid the person who God is using (hope that makes sence)?
True enough, but what exactly do demons do in the way of physically preventing people from being saved? I mean sure, Satan is behind all sin, but when do we actually even see the direct effects of demons outside of possession? Do they belong as a standalone brigade any more than angels?
Bottom line, it's a game. :P
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Actually, come to think of it. God already sent me an angel. Hot wife, ftw!
I hope some kid in a movie (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dgk_5eFrlwg/S9B7PMiEuWI/AAAAAAAABrw/eig24iOtvlU/s1600/Anakin_Skywalker_3.jpg) doesn't try to use that line.... oh..... wait, I guess I'm too late.
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Actually, come to think of it. God already sent me an angel. Hot wife, ftw!
I hope some kid in a movie (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dgk_5eFrlwg/S9B7PMiEuWI/AAAAAAAABrw/eig24iOtvlU/s1600/Anakin_Skywalker_3.jpg) doesn't try to use that line.... oh..... wait, I guess I'm too late.
It worked for him, too. ;)
Of course, in both cases, the end result did not turn out too well for the girl.... :maul:
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Actually, come to think of it. God already sent me an angel. Hot wife, ftw!
I hope some kid in a movie (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_dgk_5eFrlwg/S9B7PMiEuWI/AAAAAAAABrw/eig24iOtvlU/s1600/Anakin_Skywalker_3.jpg) doesn't try to use that line.... oh..... wait, I guess I'm too late.
For once, Darth Marble is on topic!
It worked for him, too. ;)
Of course, in both cases, the end result did not turn out too well for the girl.... :maul:
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Well, it's quite interesting how God used 2 angels to destroy 2 whole cities (Sodom and Gomorrah), and how the Bible mentions that angels do a lot of singing/praising/worshiping God. However, I personally think that angels should be a little more anti-demon. I mean, come on, PotA basically ignores non-warrior class angels!! The Thief is great for random discard, but angels... I don't even really see them as a GOOD support for humans anyway. For a 2 color offense, you'd want 2 solid halves, not 1 epic brigade paired with a somewhat ok 2nd brigade. (Although Michael (Warriors) works quite nice with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo :) .
Just my twopence.
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Angels are fairly epic in T2, they can, with enough effort, get through almost any defense, Micheal + Angel's Sword + Striking Herod/Fire Smoke and Sulfur/The Seventh Trumpet will win most battles against humans. Demons have little to stop The Strong Angel, and next time I see Prince of the Air in T2 I will snipe him with the Destroyer. The Destroyer can hit characters like Namaan, The Rabshekah and the Babylonian guy.
Gabriel gets rid of my opponents enhancements, Angel of the Harvest gets rid of Evil/Neutral cards, generates souls and/or draws me cards. Attending Angel can speed up my deck by pulling out enhancements or get rid of annoying placed cards. And its very hard to beat a Band of all my warrior class angels in a By the Numbers battle.
I don't know how good they are in T1, but in T2 they are awesome, not to mention most of the good ones are NT so they get around Asherah Pole and Golden Calf and they aren't human so they get around Unholy Writ and many powerful enhancements.
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(Although Michael (Warriors) works quite nice with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo :) .
The Kings version of Michael and Gabriel also have a Daniel reference.
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(Although Michael (Warriors) works quite nice with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo :) .
The Kings version of Michael and Gabriel also have a Daniel reference.
In fact, those are the only versions with a Daniel reference, so that's probably what he meant.
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(Although Michael (Warriors) works quite nice with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo :) .
The Kings version of Michael and Gabriel also have a Daniel reference.
In fact, those are the only versions with a Daniel reference, so that's probably what he meant.
Yeah, what he said. (I don't have the Daniel Reference one.)
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when i started playing, about when WA went out of print I think, my first deck that was any good was blue silver and black and know i'm considering building a deck like that again. I'd obviously have to use better FooF, RoA, and TexP in it because i'm pretty sure that was before Angel Wars. It was a really good deck and the first deck that i didn't really ask my brothers to make it for me...lol!
~Jayden
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Not much to say that has not been said. Other than that I think the fact that Angels work best with other brigades is a good thing. I love to use Silver and I got to say that I like how the angels can band to so many different brigades! Oh and yes they can band to one another. Just look at Army of the Lord!
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Silver users are bums. One could say they need to get a Job >:c.
i gave you a one up because it was funny. not because i agreed with it spaz.
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Here's the way I see silver. Since Warriors, they have had some of the beefiest characters of any brigade: mainly Mike, Strong Angel and Captain. Add Gathering and any other angel becomes a Super-Captain. Silver also has a number of significant battle winners it has accumulated over the years. Finally, with Angel Wars, it got an entire set with the offense dedicated exclusively to silver.
As far back as Priests, I was able to make a silver offense using all NT angels, with Covenant of Eden, Chamber of Angels and Fourth Living Creature. For those keeping score at home, that's an offense protected from discard, remove and capture and has access to all the major "restricted" Lost Souls (NT, */4, female since I had Arianna and Kira), and at various turns could protect my hand, deck, Lost Souls, etc from my blocking opponents.
It's true that a lot of silver cards - especially newer ones - are situationally awesome, but in those situations, they are beasts. Even Attending Angel, for which I will take the credit/blame for its new ability, can do a lot against poison decks and orange/pale decks that like to do paralysis and/or Blindness immunity.
With Disciples, and to a lesser extent Thesaurus, there was an opportunity to explore another aspect of silver that hasn't been propped up as much in the years since Warriors, and that was how well they support a human second brigade. Silver/blue and silver/purple were popular themes back in the days of yore. More recently, I've seen decks that were a combination of silver/teal and sometimes a third color (either royals or prophets).
In the past, there have been concerns that giving brigades powerful cards of a certain type would lead to "cookie-cutter" themed decks, with a lot of the best choices being obvious. But brigades need strong cards that coordinate with each other in order to stand alone well. Brigades also need viable options to mix and match with other brigades, to encourage multi-brigade use as well. Similarly, you need cards that punish players for using only one brigade, and you need cards that punish players for splashing. It all seems like it contradicts each other, but in the big picture, you want players to be able to have success in a lot of different ways, and you want players to be able to stop each other in a lot of different ways.
Silver has always been a strong brigade and IMO is still a strong brigade. Historically it has had excellent characters but Enhancements that were more situational and not always pure battle winners. I personally thought the Destroyer pack in RoA was a nice boost to silver, and though the recent trend is to increase its value as a support brigade, I don't think there's any reason to worry that silver won't continue to get strong standalone cards in the future.
In short, I think the biggest problem with standalone silver right now is that the other colors are finally catching up to it.
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Here's the way I see silver. Since Warriors, they have had some of the beefiest characters of any brigade: mainly Mike, Strong Angel and Captain. Add Gathering and any other angel becomes a Super-Captain. Silver also has a number of significant battle winners it has accumulated over the years. Finally, with Angel Wars, it got an entire set with the offense dedicated exclusively to silver.
As far back as Priests, I was able to make a silver offense using all NT angels, with Covenant of Eden, Chamber of Angels and Fourth Living Creature. For those keeping score at home, that's an offense protected from discard, remove and capture and has access to all the major "restricted" Lost Souls (NT, */4, female since I had Arianna and Kira), and at various turns could protect my hand, deck, Lost Souls, etc from my blocking opponents.
It's true that a lot of silver cards - especially newer ones - are situationally awesome, but in those situations, they are beasts. Even Attending Angel, for which I will take the credit/blame for its new ability, can do a lot against poison decks and orange/pale decks that like to do paralysis and/or Blindness immunity.
With Disciples, and to a lesser extent Thesaurus, there was an opportunity to explore another aspect of silver that hasn't been propped up as much in the years since Warriors, and that was how well they support a human second brigade. Silver/blue and silver/purple were popular themes back in the days of yore. More recently, I've seen decks that were a combination of silver/teal and sometimes a third color (either royals or prophets).
In the past, there have been concerns that giving brigades powerful cards of a certain type would lead to "cookie-cutter" themed decks, with a lot of the best choices being obvious. But brigades need strong cards that coordinate with each other in order to stand alone well. Brigades also need viable options to mix and match with other brigades, to encourage multi-brigade use as well. Similarly, you need cards that punish players for using only one brigade, and you need cards that punish players for splashing. It all seems like it contradicts each other, but in the big picture, you want players to be able to have success in a lot of different ways, and you want players to be able to stop each other in a lot of different ways.
Silver has always been a strong brigade and IMO is still a strong brigade. Historically it has had excellent characters but Enhancements that were more situational and not always pure battle winners. I personally thought the Destroyer pack in RoA was a nice boost to silver, and though the recent trend is to increase its value as a support brigade, I don't think there's any reason to worry that silver won't continue to get strong standalone cards in the future.
In short, I think the biggest problem with standalone silver right now is that the other colors are finally catching up to it.
wow! short! sweet! and to the point!
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well, two out of three, anyway. i think that "short" part was sarcastic ;)
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Bibically, though, aren't angels mainly support (eg giving a message, protecting, aiding) for the person who God is either using or is trying to reach. Basically, do angels bibically share the gospel of Christ and help lead some one to salvation or do they mainly aid the person who God is using (hope that makes sence)?
Exactly what I have been thinking. And I agree with Schaef's post, too.
Pure silver is OK, but splash in another theme, and it makes it more exciting. Job (with Angel at Shur), Aaron (with Seraph and Angel of God or The Destroyer), Samson (with Birth Foretold and Consuming Fire), John the Baptist (with Birth Foretold and Seraph), Simeon (with Seraph and Luke Gabriel), Zecharias (with Gabriel and Gabriel meets Zecharias), Israelite Archer (with The Strong Angel), Jacob (with Captain or Angel of God or Guardian Angel or Seraphim), and Daniel humans banded to Daniel angels all make for nice little examples of Angels cooperating with humans to advance the kingdom of God.
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Yeah, those are all fun little combos, but they really aren't enough to make me want to build a deck out of them. I mean I might splash Samson into an angels deck just because of Birth Foretold, but neither of those cards are really even good for anything else (and Consuming Fire is crap), so I'm not planning on making a whole Angel/Jugdes deck out of them.
I have to say that I'm really very disappointed with the new angels. I can't even imagine a successful deck using these cards.
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The random increase angel is trash, but the Convenience Store is really good with Jacob.
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Which card gives a random increase?
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The random increase angel is trash, but the Convenience Store is really good with Jacob.
Great, more reason to use Jacob. Seriously, we need more humans that band to angels. Then all these angels that protect humans from stuff will actually be useful.
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(Random) increase Angel, not (random increase) Angel.
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If it was part of a set developed by a group of people, that seems to indicate a deliberate design and not random.
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If it was part of a set developed by a group of people, that seems to indicate a deliberate design and not random.
It doesn't have much to do with the existing themes though. I think that is what he was saying. I like the card idea for fun decks but the card is pretty much useless other wise.
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Silver does not have a theme of supporting human brigades? Or making humans stronger does not fit the theme of a card named Strengthening Angel?
I'm baffled that people don't assign this card any value in FBNB decks, where the CBP means the ability would work even when it's part of the banding chain. Not to mention the protection of hand and deck during a time when those powers are getting significant boosts. This card counters a half dozen or more cards from this set alone, and it's not a full-size expansion.
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Silver does not have a theme of supporting human brigades? Or making humans stronger does not fit the theme of a card named Strengthening Angel?
I'm baffled that people don't assign this card any value in FBNB decks, where the CBP means the ability would work even when it's part of the banding chain. Not to mention the protection of hand and deck during a time when those powers are getting significant boosts. This card counters a half dozen or more cards from this set alone, and it's not a full-size expansion.
... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.
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Yeah, as far as I can tell, Strengthening Angel is just a male Arianna.
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... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.
Any card that can band to a silver or male Hero?
And yes, the increase is permanent, because there is nothing on the card that says it is NOT permanent. See also: Jairus' Daughter, Timothy, Bread of Life, Meeting in the Wilderness, The Body of Christ, Chastisement of the Lord, Drawn Water, Jacob's New Name, Elisha's Bones, Listening to God, The Vineyard, Wandering Spirit, Molten Calf Worship.
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... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.
Any card that can band to a silver or male Hero?
And yes, the increase is permanent, because there is nothing on the card that says it is NOT permanent. See also: Jairus' Daughter, Timothy, Bread of Life, Meeting in the Wilderness, The Body of Christ, Chastisement of the Lord, Drawn Water, Jacob's New Name, Elisha's Bones, Listening to God, The Vineyard, Wandering Spirit, Molten Calf Worship.
Does it stack with itself?
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... How do you band to it in general FBTN banding chains, without gathering? Also, it doesn't specify the increase is permanent, so unless you find some way to band to him, hes fairly useless.
Any card that can band to a silver or male Hero?
So...2 cards?
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Does it stack with itself?
Why wouldn't it? Each activation of its ability resolves instantly.
So...2 cards?
I count at least half a dozen cards that fit into this ability. Now you can keep being cute and sarcastic about this or you can just process a very simple statement that I said the card ALSO (not only, but ALSO) works if it's banded into a Captain-or-Captain-like-chain, because it cannot be prevented. It is NOT the ONLY possible use of the card, but it IS an ADDITIONAL use which you seem to be looking for any excuse just to tear it down. You've made it quite clear that you don't see value in the card, and that's fine; you don't need to pile on by inventing new criticisms that are not even correct. Another example:
Protect all cards in holder’s hand and draw pile from being discarded or removed by an evil special ability.
Protect cards in your hand and deck from discard by opponent (no restriction on the type of discard). Increase your human Heroes by 1/1 (no such ability on Arianna). Cannot be prevented (Arianna can be prevented).
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Ok, if Strengthening Angel is a permanent increase...
Protect cards in your hand and deck from discard by opponent. Increase your human Heroes by 1/1. Cannot be prevented.
Why isn't Plagued with Diseases?
Decrease all opponents' Heroes by 0/2 (or 0/3 if you have the fewst Redeemed Souls).
Both ability changes are written the same way. *Change* *target* by *Number*. If I play Plagued with Diseases as an enhancement, are my opponents heroes all permanently decreased/diseased?
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strengthening angel = poor mans elijahs mantle.
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strengthening angel = pro if used with elijahs mantle.
Fixed.
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strengthening angel = pro if used with elijahs mantle.
Fixed.
hurrah for pointless combos!
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And yes, the increase is permanent, because there is nothing on the card that says it is NOT permanent. See also: Jairus' Daughter, Timothy, Bread of Life, Meeting in the Wilderness, The Body of Christ, Chastisement of the Lord, Drawn Water, Jacob's New Name, Elisha's Bones, Listening to God, The Vineyard, Wandering Spirit, Molten Calf Worship.
While I agree with all of your examples, this REG quote makes me wonder:
The effect lasts until the end of the battle, unless the card specifies otherwise.
I think the Set-Asides work differently because they are set-asides, and cards like Jairus' Daughter and Army of Simeonites say return to territory with abilities increased/decreased (so the change obviously lasts past the battle phase). So it seems to me that Strengthening Angel is like Gibeonite Trickery (another card that doesn't specify the duration of the gain) and the increase only lasts until the end of battle. How that jives with your other examples, I'm not entirely sure.
Also, FWIW, I'm having trouble thinking of any other Heroes besides Jacob and Claudia that can band to Strengthening Angel without the aid of enhancements. I don't think BB was being sarcastic when he said he could only think of two heroes.
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Why isn't Plagued with Diseases?
Decrease all opponents' Heroes by 0/2 (or 0/3 if you have the fewst Redeemed Souls).
Plagued with Diseases is an ongoing increase that lasts while the "Artifact" is active. Strengthening Angel resolves instantly and has no time limit, and is therefore a permanent increase.
I think the Set-Asides work differently because they are set-asides
Not all of those abilities are set-asides. But that's not even the point. The (old) REG quote refers to increase/decrease as an ongoing ability. In some cases that is correct. In a lot of cases, say for example every single card I mentioned, the increase is instantaneous and permanent.
The increase is PERMANENT. The increase was DESIGNED TO BE PERMANENT. The wording was debated to ENSURE THE PERMANENCE OF THE INCREASE.
Also, FWIW, I'm having trouble thinking of any other Heroes...I don't think BB was being sarcastic when he said he could only think of two heroes.
In my post, I said CARDS. In his response, he said CARDS. I went back and specifically verified the CARDS that allow Strengthening Angel to be banded in. I verified my facts before posting my response so that I could back up what I said.
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Why isn't Plagued with Diseases?
Decrease all opponents' Heroes by 0/2 (or 0/3 if you have the fewst Redeemed Souls).
Plagued with Diseases is an ongoing increase that lasts while the "Artifact" is active. Strengthening Angel resolves instantly and has no time limit, and is therefore a permanent increase.
PwD can be played an an enhancement too.
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Yes? And?
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Plagued with Diseases is an ongoing increase that lasts while the "Artifact" is active. Strengthening Angel resolves instantly and has no time limit, and is therefore a permanent increase.
So why doesn't Gibeonite Trickery's gain last? I'm not trying to be irritating, but I don't see the difference in the wording right now between the two.
Not all of those abilities are set-asides. But that's not even the point. The (old) REG quote refers to increase/decrease as an ongoing ability. In some cases that is correct. In a lot of cases, say for example every single card I mentioned, the increase is instantaneous and permanent.
So then how do we decide in the cases when it's not explicitly stated? Also, I realize that not all of them were set asides, but the majority were. The others I referred to as your other examples, and asked why they worked the way they always have given the REG quote.
The increase is PERMANENT. The increase was DESIGNED TO BE PERMANENT. The wording was debated to ENSURE THE PERMANENCE OF THE INCREASE.
Personally, I never saw those discussions, because I only saw abilties up to version 0.3 before Justin kind of dropped off the Redemption map and needed to work 80 hours a week, and never got around to updating me with the newer abilities. So I guess it would be interesting to see what the reasoning for the permanence is.
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So why doesn't Gibeonite Trickery's gain last? I'm not trying to be irritating, but I don't see the difference in the wording right now between the two.
That strikes me as an issue with Gibeonite Trickery, not the dozens of other cards that say "increase" or "gain" which are temporary when ongoing and permanent when instant. Including this one.
The others I referred to as your other examples, and asked why they worked the way they always have given the REG quote.
In the portion of my post you quoted, I pointed out that the REG states that rule in reference to increase as an ongoing ability. Not all increases are ongoing, and so I am not going to apply that rule universally to cards that don't match the description.
So I guess it would be interesting to see what the reasoning for the permanence is.
I don't understand what you mean by "the reasoning for the permanence". Do you mean why is the gain supposed to be permanent? Or do you mean why is it assumed that this wording makes it permanent?
The reason for this wording is because the intention to make it permanent was made very clear very early on in this change of the ability, and strong assurances were given from multiple sources that this wording would apply the ability correctly. The reason for making it permanent is to make the gain worthwhile by accumulating over several turns. Similar to the way Messenger Angel works but on a much bigger scale.
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Then why doesn't the EXACT same wording make other cards like PWD and Gib Trickery permanent?
All three cards say
Increase/Decrease a Target by This number.
Why don't they work the same? what makes PwD magically ongoing, Gib Trickery temporary, and Strengthening Angel permanent?
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So...2 cards?
Now you can keep being cute and sarcastic about this ...
Alright, first of all...
Also, FWIW, I'm having trouble thinking of any other Heroes besides Jacob and Claudia that can band to Strengthening Angel without the aid of enhancements. I don't think BB was being sarcastic when he said he could only think of two heroes.
This is true. I was not being sarcastic, I was being realistic. You may have said "cards" and I may have said "cards", but if an enhancement is required to band to a hero, there is only a limited number of times you can do it, and each time you will spend another card. And the whole point of FbtNB in the first place is not to have to use enhancements, so I automatically thought heroes.
And second of all, not to be disrespectful, as I appreciate all the work you do for the Redemption community, but I'm surprised that you of all people would be calling someone out on sarcasm. Half of the posts you write seem to be dripping with sarcasm (or at least some other form of speaking that people might consider condescending).
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Why don't they work the same?
You don't understand why an Artifact doesn't work the same as an Enhancement?
I've already responded to all of these points. If you'd rather ignore over 60 other cards that work exactly the way I described, than wonder whether your one counter-example Gib Trick might be the card that needs clarification, I can't help you.
You may have said "cards" and I may have said "cards", but if an enhancement is required to band to a hero, there is only a limited number of times you can do it, and each time you will spend another card.
Well, see, that's not the case either, because there are ways to deal with that as well. Using musicians, I can play The Stars basically a limitless number of times. FBNB is about creating a nice FBN chain but you have to be ready to deal with other issues as well, like if the opponent drops a CBP card on you, or if you can't get your chain all together at once. This card works with OR WITHOUT the band and with OR WITHOUT the fbn, so again these are only EXAMPLES of how to use it. I can also see comboing it with a red offense to beef up their numbers, even though there's not a lot of FBN in that cluster. The point is that you have to be a little bit creative sometimes, but I'm not going to go around telling people that the card has no value based on "facts" that just are not correct. I think discussions should be had on their own merits.
Half of the posts you write seem to be dripping with sarcasm (or at least some other form of speaking that people might consider condescending).
It is no secret that I am very direct and highly technical in my replies. When you're in a written format, the only thing you have to go on are what people type, and so I have to put all my focus on that in order to make sure what I say is as close to correct as I can make it, and that I can back up the things I say, and that if I draw a conclusion about something that someone else said, I can point at the words they used (example: my use of the word "cards" meaning "cards" and your use of the word "cards" meaning "Heroes that are blatantly obvious plays", and prof's complete changing of the word to just "Heroes"... I was the only one who actually said exactly what I meant when I used the word "cards"). It's also no secret that sometimes this level of directness is offputting to some people, especially when it's compounded with the frustrations of people arguing based on facts that are wrong, accusing me of saying things that I did not say, and/or turning yet another thread into a big discussion over whether I personally am a good or bad person instead of just working to solve the problem. It's unfortunate, but I can only do the best I can with what meager social skills I have.
But let's both be real about this: you think this card is practically worthless, and you were set on making sure everything I said about what the card could do had as little value as possible in order to keep the card worthless in your opinion. Meanwhile, we're discovering that for many people, their evaluation of the card is based on misunderstandings about what the card actually DOES. In order to draw a right conclusion, whether they agree with me or not, people should at least be working with the right information.
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Why don't they work the same?
You don't understand why an Artifact doesn't work the same as an Enhancement?
Thats why i brought up that PwD can be played AS an enhancement... to get rid of that difference.
Still, all three cards are worded the exact same. The wording should act the same way. (IGNORE playing PwD as an artifact)
Other cards that should now be permanent:
Plague of Boils
Unbowed
Gib Trickery
Plagued with Diseases (as an enhancement)
Burning Censer
Herod Agrippa II (old)
If Body of Christ played as an enhancement is permanent, why arent the other enhs listed (and one EC).
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I don't have a problem with Strengthening Angel providing a permanent increase, or with the statement that this was the intent of the playtesters. However, this contradicts the current wording of the REG.
Under Ongoing Conditions-> Increase or Decrease Ability-> Default Conditions, 4th line:
"The effect lasts until the end of the battle, unless the card specifies otherwise."
Strengthening Angel does not "specify otherwise." If the intent is a permanent increase, this line in the REG will need to be modified, or a "play as" will need to be added to SA.
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Thats why i brought up that PwD can be played AS an enhancement... to get rid of that difference.
Getting rid of the difference in how it's played also gets rid of the difference in how the effect works. The reason I made it a point to ask you about the significance of your question (to which you never responded to me) was the hope you would pick up on that.
Still, all three cards are worded the exact same. The wording should act the same way.
I have 62 cards that act the same way when played. You have Gibeonite Trickery.
Other cards that should now be permanent:
I agree with all your examples except Agrippa, which only works when blocking and therefore is ongoing/temporary, and Gib Trick which is probably going to need clarification or errata.
Can you give me any reason this increase should not be permanent? So far all you've tried to do is find some example or another that is supposed to make the dozens of working cards not matter in the discussion, but for what reason should all of these other cards - including the angel - not work the way I described?
However, this contradicts the current wording of the REG.
Under Ongoing Conditions-> Increase or Decrease Ability-> Default Conditions, 4th line:
"The effect lasts until the end of the battle, unless the card specifies otherwise."
If the intent is a permanent increase, this line in the REG will need to be modified, or a "play as" will need to be added to SA.
I addressed this point two other times in this discussion, pointing out that this refers to Increase applied as an ongoing ability. Not all increases are ongoing; some resolve instantly. Not all increases are temporary; some are permanent. You look at all these examples available on all these cards and it's a pretty sensible conclusion to reach. It should also be reasonable to conclude that increase/decrease and "gain" will be addressed more accurately in future editions.
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But let's both be real about this: you think this card is practically worthless, and you were set on making sure everything I said about what the card could do had as little value as possible in order to keep the card worthless in your opinion.
Why are you saying this? At first observation, this card seemed worthless. I searched on my own for reasonably effective combos using this card, and did not find any. I'm going to maintain my view of this card until I have significant evidence to prove it incorrect. So far I don't believe I have been offered this. In fact, the only specific example you gave that I recall was Ethan recurring The Stars, which doesn't seem to me like a game-winning combo from any perspective.
If something you say does not seem to me to have as much value as you make it out to have, I will want to point that out. That's something I'll probably do even if it downsizes my own "argument".
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I'm going to maintain my view of this card until I have significant evidence to prove it incorrect. So far I don't believe I have been offered this.
That's fine, but don't turn something I said into something that is not correct just to marginalize my argument.
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I addressed this point two other times in this discussion, pointing out that this refers to Increase applied as an ongoing ability. Not all increases are ongoing; some resolve instantly. Not all increases are temporary; some are permanent. You look at all these examples available on all these cards and it's a pretty sensible conclusion to reach. It should also be reasonable to conclude that increase/decrease and "gain" will be addressed more accurately in future editions.
I think where the confusion occurs is with the current REG, which does not include "increase or decrease ability" under "instant special abilitites." I look forward to the changes in the REG that clarify this.
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Getting rid of the difference in how it's played also gets rid of the difference in how the effect works. The reason I made it a point to ask you about the significance of your question (to which you never responded to me) was the hope you would pick up on that.
Sorry, I was in the middle of a game when you posted that.
Other cards that should now be permanent:
I agree with all your examples except Agrippa, which only works when blocking and therefore is ongoing/temporary, and Gib Trick which is probably going to need clarification or errata.
So, I'm just double checking because this will completely change how I play this... PwD used as an enhancement is a permanent decrease/diseasing of all my opponents heroes? If so, I'm never using it as an art again.
Can you give me any reason this increase should not be permanent? So far all you've tried to do is find some example or another that is supposed to make the dozens of working cards not matter in the discussion, but for what reason should all of these other cards - including the angel - not work the way I described?
None at all, I just always assumed no time limit means it ends at the end of the phase. I wasn't using the examples to say Strengthening Angel is not permanent, I was more asking if the cards are now permanent... because as said, I've always played that they ended.
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I think where the confusion occurs is with the current REG, which does not include "increase or decrease ability" under "instant special abilitites." I look forward to the changes in the REG that clarify this.
Right, but that's kind of my point. There are dozens of instant and permanent increases and we accept them as correct intuitively. The REG clouds this by mentioning one type but not the other, but people have been playing their cards correctly up until this point, so all it's really going to do is codify what people already do normally.
So, I'm just double checking because this will completely change how I play this... PwD used as an enhancement is a permanent decrease/diseasing of all my opponents heroes? If so, I'm never using it as an art again.
The way it's currently worded and the way I currently understand decrease to work, I don't see why that's not the case.
I just always assumed no time limit means it ends at the end of the phase.
So you assumed that Jairus' Daughter increased 2/2 until the end of the phase where she just lost the battle, and then immediately returned to her previous numbers?
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I guess now that I think about it, its kinda odd that I thought that.
Still, I'm so happy about PwD that I'm going to go make a defense.
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If I increase / decrease one of my characters and they return to draw pile and reset, the increase / decrease will reset, correct?
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All cards return to face value when they go anywhere apart from the Field of Play or Set-Aside area.
Still, I'm so happy about PwD that I'm going to go make a defense.
That strikes me as kinda weird... it's not the only disease card that does this, it just has a broader scope. But it only gets to target cards one time in this fashion, whereas the card affects every Hero the opponent puts down while it's active as an Artifact.
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Well, its good both ways, but... you cant DoN it to get rid of the decrease/disease when used as an enhancement.
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Still, I'm so happy about PwD that I'm going to go make a defense.
That strikes me as kinda weird... it's not the only disease card that does this, it just has a broader scope. But it only gets to target cards one time in this fashion, whereas the card affects every Hero the opponent puts down while it's active as an Artifact.
But the "artifact" effect can be stopped by getting rid of PwD, while the "enhancement" effect is permanent. And if you played it while you had the fewest LSs, the -3 is permanent even when you rescue more souls.
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No but you can kill it with a lot of cards from the new set, or heal your Heroes with those worthless angels Guardian Angel and Attending Angel, and being non-ongoing, the Hero won't re-decrease the next turn. Not to mention what Ordained as a Disciple can now do with all the new Heroes. So you see, there are different aspects to what is "permanent" here.
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Attending Angel does nothing against PwD. Guardian Angel only heals one at a time. I'll let you know when I see Ordained as a Disciple in any decks. :P
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Attending Angel was my error; I thought it also healed a Hero. I know Guardian Angel only heals one at a time; please give me some credit at least. And I know that today is "bash any card that might work in a given situation day" but I don't think giving a Hero the permanent ability to pick apart a demon defense and/or heal a Hero - in addition to the greatly increased strength of apostles with the new cards - is so weak that no one would bother with it in these new circumstances.
My point was that with some Heroes coming onto the field clean, and Guardian Angel healing a new Hero each time he comes out (not to mentio all the other healing cards in the game), and the most important part, that HEALED HEROES DON'T GET RE-DISEASED, means that the trade is having ALL of the Heroes diseased when the Art is active versus having only the current batch of Heroes diseased, and only unless and until they get healed or reset.
In addition to which, using it to kill off low-grade Heroes only works the one time as opposed to keeping them out of territory for extended periods, and the ones that are killed (including with Face of Death) will come back at full strength when the player recycles them with Chariot or whatever, and I get better initiative with Heroes in the */4-ish range.
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I would most likely play it as an enhancement, quickly followed by Face of Death.
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... I'm having trouble understanding why that's better than putting it up as an Artifact and using Face of Death to tag ALL the Heroes. It certainly doesn't explain why you favor the "permanent" aspect of Enhancement use.
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Because it turns into such an extreme DoN target when used as an artifact, canceling the effect entirely.
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Yes, but if you're playing it in the same battle, you get that effect whether the decrease is permanent or temporary. The way you thought it worked an hour ago, the combo worked exactly the same way.
For my part, I'm not certain I would burn a DoN on this unless I was certain this was the best Art you had in your pile, which is a tall order given Grail, Ark, Writ, 30 Pieces, Altar, Chariot and a dozen others.
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You wouldn't believe how many times I've had PwD killed by DoN...
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I'm having an even harder time believing how many of those times you could have played a PwD/FoD combo like you're talking about now, without worrying about whether it was permanent since you're playing one right behind the other anyway.
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Well the thing is, now I don't have to play one after the other immediately, hence why i never used it as an enhancement.
Now its useful either way.
*edit*
Playing it as an enhancement is sneakier too.
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But it kills the same Heroes either way. Yes you have the option to use it later, but only on those select Heroes. Either way, I would be careful in the future using the term "quickly followed by" in relation to two cards you don't actually intend to play back to back.
But also, by DoNning your PwD, they are now free to put down their 1/1 init Hero or whatever, which would have been insta-killed by a PwD Art. By playing it as an Enhancement, you eliminate that problem, and they can put down all the Heroes they want after the fact. Basically, you solved their problem and saved them a DoN.
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Ehh, I would keep discussing this but I gotta go to bed now.
I'm just happy that its equally good (imo) if used as an enhancement.
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All I was saying is that it has its drawbacks as well as its benefits. It's not like Enhancement play opens up this whole new world of possibilities that makes the card astoundingly good. Yes, it's more powerful as a permanent decrease than just till end of phase, but my only point is that the Art play has benefits that you sacrifice in order to get the gains of the Enhancement play.
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It's also no secret that sometimes this level of directness is offputting to some people, especially when it's compounded with the frustrations of people arguing based on facts that are wrong, accusing me of saying things that I did not say, and/or turning yet another thread into a big discussion over whether I personally am a good or bad person instead of just working to solve the problem. It's unfortunate, but I can only do the best I can with what meager social skills I have.
Man, that was a mouthful. A very humble mouthful. And that ends todays session. We had some real breakthroughs in group today. you guys make me proud. *kidding- love you buddy.
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No but you can kill it with a lot of cards from the new set, or heal your Heroes with those worthless angels Guardian Angel and Attending Angel,
I didn't see where anyone called Guardian Angel or Attending Angel worthless. Guardian Angel is the best Site Access Angel Silver has now. And any hero with a generalized search ability (like Attending Angel) is good in my book. I use both in my Job deck.
And I know that today is "bash any card that might work in a given situation day" but I don't think giving a Hero the permanent ability to pick apart a demon defense
I actually considered using Ordained in a Disciples/NT prophets Hybrid (with Simeon and Thaddeus, the two best new heroes in the set). But demon decks have GoH anyway, so I don't see it being used to pick any defense apart. I suppose if you have Wash Basin and they wait to use GoH/or don't have it by then...Hmm...
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The entire original point of this discussion was that the angels across the last few sets were so un-useful that silver is no longer viable as a standalone brigade. I happen to think all of the angels are at least decent and the RoA angels are excellent, so for you to tell me you find them useful is just preaching to the choir.
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The entire original point of this discussion was that the angels across the last few sets were so un-useful that silver is no longer viable as a standalone brigade. I happen to think all of the angels are at least decent and the RoA angels are excellent, so for you to tell me you find them useful is just preaching to the choir.
I would like to see Silver become stronger since it's always been my favorite brigade (AW came out a few weeks before I started playing). I think it only needs a few cards to become a standalone brigade, but right now it just seems like you have limited options using it as a main offense in a primarily defensive deck.
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The new Silver cards aren't bad exactly (ok, yeah, Strengthening Angel is bad), they're just a little lacklustre compared to what a lot of the other Brigades got. Compare Guardian Angel (useless for everything but Site Access unless Jacob or Gathering is involved) to Watchful Servant, or Thaddeus, or Simeon. No contest.
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The new Silver cards aren't bad exactly (ok, yeah, Strengthening Angel is bad), they're just a little lacklustre compared to what a lot of the other Brigades got. Compare Guardian Angel (useless for everything but Site Access unless Jacob or Gathering is involved) to Watchful Servant, or Thaddeus, or Simeon. No contest.
Kind of like Buster Douglas trying to take on Mike Tyson. I mean...really.... who's he kidding?
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we need another BBN silver card and were back in business.
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we need another BBN silver card and were back in business.
I'm assuming BBN means "Battle By Numbers"?
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we need another BBN silver card and were back in business.
I'm assuming BBN means "Battle By Numbers"?
True 'nuff.
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we need another BBN silver card and were back in business.
I'm assuming BBN means "Battle By Numbers"?
True 'nuff.
We need more FBTN cards PERIOD. FBTN is NOT a reliable strategy right now.
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We need more FBTN cards PERIOD. FBTN is NOT a reliable strategy right now.
We need more specific exceptions to FBTN abilities. For instance:
"Negate all special abilities on characters and enhancements except____________."
Right now the only exceptions are banding and warrior/weapon-class. For ECs, we could include capture, set-aside, return, immune, or remove from game. For heroes, we could include discard, convert, or ignore.
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we need another BBN silver card and were back in business.
I'm assuming BBN means "Battle By Numbers"?
True 'nuff.
We need more FBTN cards PERIOD. FBTN is NOT a reliable strategy right now.
I never thought I'd live to see the day. :)
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we need another BBN silver card and were back in business.
I'm assuming BBN means "Battle By Numbers"?
True 'nuff.
We need more FBTN cards PERIOD. FBTN is NOT a reliable strategy right now.
I never thought I'd live to see the day. :)
the day of what? r u saying that we need more FBTN, , that FBTN isn't reliable or both?
Although I also totally agree with Master Chi.
And whoever made up this thread.
my silver/blue fbtn probably went 100/20ish.
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That someone would think FBTN isn't reliable. Wasn't too long ago that if you weren't playing FBTN you weren't winning.
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If you are talking to me, the losses were from a bunch of Nats winners.
Minnesota playgroup is tough.