Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Strategies and Combos => Topic started by: Bryon on October 02, 2010, 06:45:56 PM
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It's that time of year again. The next set is in development. We really appreciate hearing from players all over the country.
If you have been playing with and against Disciples cards for at least a few weeks, we'd like your input on the current meta. I understand that there are likely combos and counters that many players have not even considered yet, and those could surface over the next few months, so we will just keep this thread going. As you discover things that are too difficult to beat - especially at tournaments - please post here with your opinions.
What we want to hear:
[insert card title] is way too powerful and doesn't have enough counters.
It is too difficult to get rid of [insert card type], and that makes [insert deck type] too difficult to beat.
It is way too easy to rescue with [insert offense card here].
It is way too hard for me to rescue if my opponent uses [insert defense card/s here].
Site decks are too [insert "powerful" or "weak" here] because of [insert name of card/s here].
Or, if others suggest that something doesn't have enough counters, and you know of half a dozen ways to effectively counter it, feel free to answer those players' concerns with some of your tips.
What we don't want to hear in this thread:
Make such and such a card.
Such and such theme is too weak.
Thanks in advance for your input.
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First comment.
Dust & Ashes is way too powerful But has Counters
Is Taunt characters gonna be a majority (like WC in Kings) or a minority?
Heretics still are not strong enough to be a solid defense
Major Want
Makes having Big Numbers Powerful again
This would be very interesting
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It is way too hard for me to rescue if my opponent uses Manessah.
Site decks are too powerful because of Ceasdakjfapwoieugf Philiapsdiguoaibue (whatever that red one is).
Site decks are too weak because of Fishing Boat.
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Protect needs to be neutered. Thaddeus and is wayyyy tooo good.
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A NT Golden calf to stop Thad would be fun. Please counter Herod's Temple. EDIT:The meta is...bad. Please make the meta better next set.
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SATANS SEAT KILLS THAD GUYS
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lol, Satan's Seat is a terrible card. It's so conditional, and it's so easy to get back discarded heroes. I would never play that card. Confusion of Mind and Writ are counters, Satan's Seat is a check.
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I agree Thad is very hard to stop. I would also like to see something that can target Fishing Boat. RIP sitelock.
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does 'set' constitute starter deck?
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Watchful Servant can be hard to stop after decking out.
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More CBN'd counters to fight against NT offenses.
Fortesses are too hard to get rid of outside of battle without high places.
Getting rid of Heros outside of Battle is difficult.
Daniel
;D
p.s. - edited to meet the thread's format.
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looks at his mostly ot offense and chuckles at the last comment
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It seems OT used to be the toughest, but now NT is the toughest on offense. I would like to see some sorta NT-ash pole type of artifact. Also, I would like to see some kind of card that gets rid of a fortess, but doesn't have to be played in battle and doesn't require high places.
*cough* Genesis, Prophets *cough*
looks at his mostly ot offense and chuckles at the last comment
:thumbup:
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It seems OT used to be the toughest, but now NT is the toughest on offense. I would like to see some sorta NT-ash pole type of artifact.
However, a NT a-pole would still not stop Thad since his protection is CBI.
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I agree that OT offenses are powerful, but if you look at what the top guys are playing. It's usually NT as far as I can tell.
Daniel
;D
p.s. I've had more problems with all the other NT heros than Thad. Thad is only 1 guy.
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It seems OT used to be the toughest, but now NT is the toughest on offense. I would like to see some sorta NT-ash pole type of artifact.
However, a NT a-pole would still not stop Thad since his protection is CBI.
yes, it would work.
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Wow, I disagree with pretty much every comment made in this thread so far.
Thaddeus is too powerful.
That is the extent of my complaints following the best set of all time.
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If there was some more pre-battle(territory class) hero killers, than Thad would just be another guy.
Daniel
;D
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Beheaded anyone
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(A). [cards that restricts my ability to stop them in a reasonable manner] are too hard to stop because they force everyone to add (B). [cards that not only destroy all viablity of other cards, but add no choice factor to the game] to their decks, which are otherwise useless if (A) card strategies are not being played.
(A) card examples:
Birth Foretold
Job
TGT
FBTN
Thaddeus
Heretics
Ceasera Phillipi
(B) card examples:
Jeremiah
Golgotha
Holy of Holies
Satan's Seat
Benedictus
(C). [blanket statement cards] should never be printed because they make (D). [cards that aren't included in the blanket statement] underpowered and useless.
(C). Card examples:
Herod's Temple
Ceasera Phillipi
Chorazin
Nazareth
(D). Card examples:
All OT cards that aren't OP.
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this time it has to be I/J
it's time for new starter decks to come out.
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this time it has to be I/J
it's time for new starter decks to come out.
Give Me I/J!
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I don't want to see a year with just a starter deck. I do agree we need one, but why does it have to be the set for the year?
Even if we made it from cards from different sets I think it could be good, that way it removes most of the playtesting of them and would make them much easier to produce.
I just think a starter deck is too limited in its scope that it wouldn't be good for the tournament season. But I haven't played any disciples yet so I don't know what is too powerful or not, but it looks like Thaddeus is a little too powerful, but I haven't played against him yet.
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As someone who has been involved with a small game company, I believe it would probably be almost impossible economically to produce a new starter set (which needs to be printed in a quantity that will last for several years) and a new booster set in the same year. If you're WotC/Hasbro, sure, but not a small gameco. I don't know what Cactus' starter situation is, but it's been five years since the last set, so I would imagine a new one is in order. (Besides, it will provide a boost to Sealed next year.)
A new starter set is something I'd like to see. Heck, I'd like to be in on the playtesting, since I like the closed deck categories.
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Sealed deck is a stupid category. Booster is the best type of all time, though.
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i agree. im all for a new starter set to help introduce new players into the game, but starter decks usually offer nothing but a handful of cards to the experienced players that keep this game alive. i would also like to see a new starter set alongside an expansion, despite costs.
edit: you could also do what most big ccg companies do by making themed starter decks that contain simple cards from the new set. cactus could do this as well as continue in cactus tradition by putting cards from previous sets into the theme decks as filler.
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I would say make a larger set every say other year or every 3 years, and make a stater set out of the cards in there, make some cards simpler and it could be a good way to make it easier for new players get in as well as a good time to do rule changes that aren't rushed but are important, it would keep an updated rulebook and still have a good set for experienced players.
I don't know how economically feasable this would be, but it does make sense to me, as an experienced player, because many experienced players would buy starter decks to get certain cards easier to get, but won't feel like they have to buy 5 starter decks for 1 or 2 cards for a T2 deck.
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Shhhh...I'm going to give you a dirty little secret of game production: the single most expensive items in producing a collectible game are (1) the rulebook and (2) the packaging. Even using cards that will be included in the boosters, those two items make a new starter set significantly more expensive to produce than a booster set.
There are two other downsides to a "cards from the boosters" scenario:
(1) If the few cards not available in the booster aren't very good, fewer starters will be sold. While a gameco wants to keep its players happy, it also wants to make a profit, so having enough new cards to get us (the existing player base) to buy starters as well as new players is a must.
(2) I find it frustrating to open booster packs and find lots of cards I already got in the starter set. This drives the collectibility factor up for the other cards in the set, but at the risk of putting off some of your player base.
I fully understand the release of one or the other each year. Until we have a player base that is buying a whole lot more than we are now, that will probably remain the paradigm.
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Site decks are WAY too weak because unless you're using red or benedictus, you can't negate CP and so you're opponent can get access all day with The Ends of the Earth and Dragon Raid.
Golgotha is WAY too good, it single handedly stops ALL ignore... I don't think it's healthy for the meta to completely crush a strategy. Therefore, ignore decks are not near good enough.
CP is the reason Golgotha is too good, therefore ignore decks are too weak because of these two cards.
Thaddeus is way too good, therefore Disciples are a little OPed.
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(1) If the few cards not available in the booster aren't very good, fewer starters will be sold. While a gameco wants to keep its players happy, it also wants to make a profit, so having enough new cards to get us (the existing player base) to buy starters as well as new players is a must.
no one said anything about having exclusive cards available in the starter, but that wouldnt be such a terrible option either (yugioh employs this practice, and as sometimes those exclusive cards are fairly powerful, this will drive experienced players to buy them). starter decks also arent tailored towards experienced players to begin with, so im pretty sure many card companies do not expect as many starter decks to be sold versus a full-blown expansion. you could also do starter decks the mixed way: fixed cards from the current expansion with filler from previous, as well as maybe 1/4th or more of the starter deck completely random, to give experienced players a little incentive to buying one.
(2) I find it frustrating to open booster packs and find lots of cards I already got in the starter set.
then there is an easy solution: dont buy starter decks.
This drives the collectibility factor up for the other cards in the set...
which is a VERY good thing for the secondary market, something this game desperately needs at this point. and at the stage the R&D team is at in knowing how to build a 'good' card worthy of ultra rare status, i put full faith in knowing we could have fairly sought after ultras fetching high prices in the secondary market instead of crap like ship to cyprus, pierced heart, siegeworks, morg, etc etc. proper ccg's are built on collectibility, rarity, and the secondary market. redemption has neglected that aspect for the past few years, and if it wasnt for its devoted players, this game would be dead right now because of it.
but at the risk of putting off some of your player base.
i have never known 'collectibility' in a 'collectible card game' to put off some of a player base, when thats the very reason they're there for in the first place.
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Well last time you posted this, most people said the Garden Tomb needed to be less powerful. You guys did good with that in the last set ; disciples. I was really impressed with some of the cool disciples and how they started hurting TGT.
What now needs to be stoped-
1) ~ Teal. Some might disagree. But, Zerubbables temple might be hard to stop. Maybe, make a site that says- Each turn, if an opponent has a card in territory that says protect (except GOYS.) , then you may discard one evil enhancement from hand or storehouse to negate that for this turn.)
Thats just an idea.
2) ~ Splash. ( COTH bands, FBTN, etc...) I dont think there needs to be alot more to stop this, but maybe something like the punisher LS. Then, we might see alot more single colored decks, with new combos that you find out using only one color.
What needs to be Stronger/What I would like to see more of-
1) O.T White Heros. ( Daniel heros. ) I was extremely excited when I saw the new Daniel promo! I loved it. But, it needs more enhancements. Scence there are Daniel heros that are in a different brigade, then maybe we should make something like ashdod, except for Daniel Heros. Maybe a Fort that says something like this- Your Daniel heros may use any OT enhancement regardless of brigade.
2) Red ( I know I said earlier that FBTN needs to be weaker, but here is a good idea, to help see more red at tourneys! ;) ) .- I think there should be a red warrior class hero, that says Prevent all special abilities on non warrior class evil charactars, and enhancements except banding.
3) Persians. - I have tried to make a good persian deck, and I like all of the Persian cards, and cards that helped persians in Disciples. But, maybe one or two more battle winners for persians? And, I think brown lacks a number of interrupts and negates.
4) Taunt Cards! I think the "Taunt" is a cool ability, and alot of players would like to see more of them!
5) Multi-Colored Heros.
6) I would also like to see more artifact destruction multicolored enhancements.
Those are my thoughts! :)
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Site decks are WAY too weak because unless you're using red or benedictus, you can't negate CP and so you're opponent can get access all day with The Ends of the Earth and Dragon Raid.
Actually The Ends of the Earth is fair game in battle and Dragon Raid is fair game at anytime since it is O.T.
Caesarea Philippi (Di)
Type: Site • Brigade: Red • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect N.T. human Evil Characters in your territory from capture and discard abilities on opponents' cards. Protect N.T. Sites in your territory from opponents' cards. • Identifiers: Jew • Verse: Matthew 16:13 • Availability: Disciples booster packs
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No, red is GREAT. Teal/Red, I expect, will be a very powerful offense. I'm not sure how many people will run it because Disciples will be the fun new thing, but with the new battle-winners and cbn cards... they're gonna be hard to stop.
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Meh. Too reliant of FbtNB and Discard, not enough HT protection.
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FBTN needs more strat since there are very few good FBTN decks.
Brown needs more ITB/Negate/CBN. Seems like everything is negatable and/or ineffective.
Would like to see a fair amount of Taunt characters, just to add spice to the game when nobody is drawing Souls, but fit their respective brigades' theme (Gray capture, Crimson discard, etc.).
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Brown needs more ITB/Negate/CBN. Seems like everything is negatable and/or ineffective.
I hope you're not serious. Brown has two very good ItB battle winners (one of them CBP no less), plenty of negates (Foul Spirit, Shimei's Malicious Curse, Mask of Arrogance, Stiff-Necked) and it has two of the best CBN enhancements in the game (Haman's Plot, and Gibeonite Trickery) in addition to Gomer and the Kings of Judah with CBN abilities (assuming Gates of Jerusalem is out). What more do you want?
So far Herods seem to be the dominant defense from what I have seen in today's meta. But Brown still has the best characters of any evil brigade, and despite not having any NT characters worth using, it is still a force to be reckoned with.
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this time it has to be I/J
it's time for new starter decks to come out.
Or theme decks!!!
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expansion with starter-level theme decks.
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counters to Disciple sites
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This thread was productive.
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This thread was productive.
Your face* is productive.
*Would mom be inappropriate?
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This thread was productive.
Your face* is productive.
*Would mom be inappropriate?
My mom is more productive than this thread.
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Santa,
For Christmas,
I want a Puppy,
A Kitty,
Something to combat Thaddeus,
Something that CBN kills all Judean Kings,
And a Silver card that actually helps silver.
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I think there needs to be more counters to set-aside white enhancements and more counters to searching discard and grab a....
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I think there needs to be more counters to set-aside white enhancements and more counters to searching discard and grab a....
Any interrupt will stop the white set-aside enhancements. The best way to stop people from getting cards out of discard is to remove them with cards like Burning of the Chaff, Forgotten History and Wonders Forgotten or just use Darius Decree.
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But all the white setasides only hurt evil characters, darius decree only hurts heroes
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Site lockout is too weak; there is no counter for Fishing Boat. I don't care if certain strategies are very powerful if there are viable options to counter. No counters for set-aside N.T. fortresses.
Sites (with the red site) are too strong. It is too difficult to get rid of CP. You only have a couple choices is you want to ignore or affect their territory.
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CP is too strong. Sites would be fine if CP didn't exist...
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CP is fine. It's strong, which is different from "too strong," and Benedictus makes short work of it.
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I don't want to splash in white just to get around CP.
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YOU DON'T NEED WHITE NOOB
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Thaddeus. kthxbai.
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The only Brigade I can see struggling(standalone) with CP is silver and blue, and thats probably only because I am forgetting some cards. Gold, Red, Teal, White, Purple have got it covered.
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How does purple have it covered?
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The only Brigade I can see struggling(standalone) with CP is silver and blue, and thats probably only because I am forgetting some cards. Gold, Red, Teal, White, Purple have got it covered.
Purple/White have Benedictus and Red has the Centurions, but what does gold and teal have?
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Teal has Sword and Trumpet, Gold has Faith as a Mustard Seed.
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Teal has Sword and Trumpet, Gold has Faith as a Mustard Seed.
True. However, those are somewhat situational. Trumpet and Sword must have a Tabernacle Priest in Play and Faith as a Mustard Seed requires the site to be occupied and for the hero to be NT.
On a side note: I don't think the new sites, including CP, are overpowering. I think they were designed to slow down/Stop territory destruction and focus more on in battle play. They have definately done what they are designed to do IMO.
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Purple Has:
Thad the Man
Reach + Break Down the Wall of Gath
Purple/White have Benedictus and Red has the Centurions, but what does gold and teal have?
Benedictus is White/Teal, Teal also has trumpet and sword, Jordan interrupted + Trumpet Blast(if it is occupied)
Gold is arguably the weakest, with nothing other than faith as a mustard seeed. (That I can remember)
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Teal has problems because they can only get rid of one site, and it has to be CP. Occupying Golgotha/Nazareth is foolish in most situations, so T-Blast is out.
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Yeah, I thought Benedictus was teal/white. So purple doesn't really have a good counter.
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Yeah, I thought Benedictus was teal/white. So purple doesn't really have a good counter.
Purple has Mustard Seed (it's Gold/Purple).
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Yeah, I thought Benedictus was teal/white. So purple doesn't really have a good counter.
Da Boat of Da Fishing.
Site anything is dead against disciples.
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Oh I was referring to what purple has against CP, not against site lockout. Purple is fine against site lock.
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Yeah. But purple against C.P. is virtually nil.
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The whole point of sites was to stop the same old decks and archetypes. Purple users just need to use their other cards or splash a brigade. The top decks this year will be the ones who are not stopped by the sites.
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I think CP is just a little ahead of its time. Like someone mentioned, Silver and Blue have no way around it, and most other brigades have but one card that gets around it. Rest assured we have some balanced counters planned for Sites in future sets. :)
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They'd better be balanced. What's with the big need to "get around" CP? Territory destruction is what made the game so unfun for three seasons.
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i agree leave cp alone and let purple learn to splash etc
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mhmm
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The whole point of sites was to stop the same old decks and archetypes. Purple users just need to use their other cards or splash a brigade. The top decks this year will be the ones who are not stopped by the sites.
Agreed. Everybody complained about TGT and the sites were the solution. Now everyone complains about the sites. Personally I just use cards that work despite the sites. The sites do not protect from set aside, remove from the game or placing characters beneath deck. The focus of the game has now returned to in battle strategy as opposed to prep phase territory destruction. Purple doesn't have much to worry about. It has Thad.
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silver- anti-site enh.... discuss :)
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24457.msg385819;topicseen#new (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/index.php?topic=24457.msg385819;topicseen#new)
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They'd better be balanced. What's with the big need to "get around" CP? Territory destruction is what made the game so unfun for three seasons.
The problem I have with CP is that I need to have a way to negate it as well as a way to get rid of the Site that I'm really after, which is not always CP, (say Golgotha for an ignore deck or Nazareth for a search-heavy deck). I think CP would have been fine without the protecting other Sites part--even if it just protected itself. The other thing is that I wish we would change the rule about sites abilities always being active instead of only activating when they are occupied (unless specified, like Herod's Dungeon).
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Well, seeing as how Ignore broke T1 and Search broke T2 the last few seasons, I'm not shedding any tears over GOGO and Naz being hard to Discard. It's also fairly easy to get around CP as-is with Benedictus (which happens to be in two brigades with site discarding).
Sites needing to be occupied to be active would be better than just checking Sites imo, but still a little unnecessary. Basically, my thing is, Sites don't win games. When an offensive card is broken, that produces huge problems, but when a defensive card is very powerful, perhaps even a little OP, that's not nearly as devastating unless it's WAY broken.
And to top it all off, the site defense mechanic right now is sitting on a bubble. There are so many ways to exploit their popularity I'm surprised it's taken this long for the paradigm to shift back to protection fortresses. Don't be in a rush to nerf the new Sites, I think the more this season develops the less OP they'll seem (kind of like what happened with Thaddeus).
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Ignore has not broken t1. Last year's nats winning deck didn't use ignore.
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Ignore is nowhere near perfect. It's dead now anyway.
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Ignore has not broken t1.
^This.
It's dead now anyway.
They didn't need to kill it.
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Possibly restrain it a bit. Y'know, hit it with a rolled up newspaper a few times.
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I think it was hit with a truck.
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Hmm... without Thaddeus, all of the Disciples are then in danger of a Romans Destroy Jerusalem slaughter... Actually, I personally think Thaddeus is a little too conditional for my playgroup. We have a lot of 10+ defenses and the odds of getting 10+ disciples out and keeping them out doesn't make him viable atm. I dunno, I just don't like complaints :)
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Nothing to get initiative?
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Hmm... without Thaddeus, all of the Disciples are then in danger of a Romans Destroy Jerusalem slaughter... Actually, I personally think Thaddeus is a little too conditional for my playgroup. We have a lot of 10+ defenses and the odds of getting 10+ disciples out and keeping them out doesn't make him viable atm. I dunno, I just don't like complaints :)
If this is true, sure, maybe you can beat disciples, but you will lose to most other top decks.
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If this is true, sure, maybe you can beat disciples, but you will lose to most other top decks.
To my knowledge, none of us use "top decks." We create whatever comes to mind. Every deck has a weakness, some just only have a limited weakness, so the odds of coming across that particular deck (designed to exploit that weakness) may be slim to none. Personally, I get bored of seeing the same decks over and over again. Even my own. If my deck lasts more than a month, it's because I'm too lazy to build another one and/or no one has started using a combo that utterly destroys my deck. Like right now, anti-demon cards have been introduced into a lot of our decks, so an all demon defense is quite silly. However, once something else becomes popular, those cards will return again because it all happens in cycles. Life goes on, so does the game, and it doesn't matter to me if I win or lose. I just want to have a good time. Lol, I'm so tired I have no clue if I'm making any sense at all.
-C_S
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I have not had a chance to use any Disciple cards in my deck yet. The only thing I would like to see countered would be the New Jerusalem, plus Son of God
that redeems 2 lost souls at once. Right now the only way to stop it is to have Alter of Ahaz (Artifact) activated. But it is too random. We need something that could do the same thing but for the evil side. Like take back 2 lost souls. Just a idea.
Sadness
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Judas Plot and the Shut Door LS counter SoG + NJ if I am correct.
(They are both Disciples :))