Author Topic: New Set Experience (Read 6468 times)

Carl deuty · « **on:** September 20, 2011, 08:17:17 PM »

Let me start by saying, I despise Samuel decks. I thought that disciples speed was a nuisance, but genesis and samuel decks can leave disciples in the dust. I think this year will be very similar to Nascar, lets race to see who can deck out first and win the race. A Samuel deck is so fast that it doesn't even require defense. They'll race to Falling Away, destruction(to stop your Rain becomes dust or cov. with death), two liner, burial, shuffler, and SOG NJ. This is about the only "defense" they include. This is why I believe that turtle decks are the best option this year, if you don't feel like building a hot rod. Build the strongest defense possible that can withstand an onslaught, and then walk in for souls in the end game. I'm sorry to vent, but Samuel just whooped me like a noob, and I am a very experienced player. I don't think I have ever been beaten like that before, and that was also one of the fastest decks I have ever seen in my life.

Feel free to share your experiences with the new set.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #1 on:** September 20, 2011, 09:00:36 PM »

Once the new dominant rescue rules are in effect, it will slow decks like this down a LOT. They will not be in such a hurry to draw out all their lost souls just so you can rescue them. But since that Son of God and New Jerusalem in their hand is best used to take away 2 lost souls that you were going to rescue, and Burial taking away a third, their defense becomes "lost soul drought". Until the new rules take effect I'm afraid that speed is still king, and it makes me sad.

Seriously, why be considering limiting dominants on the one hand, while at the same time you create even FASTER drawing decks than we had before? Why make a hand limit, anti-speed lost souls, and say you want more defense, and then keep making cards that make defense meaningless?

I just don't get it. I really don't.

Isildur · « **Reply #2 on:** September 20, 2011, 09:11:03 PM »

Quote

I'm sorry to vent, but Samuel just whooped me like a noob, and I am a very experienced

Ah it has finally taken about 10 years since the first advent of speed for the average player to realize that making a proper balanced/defense heavy deck is a good thing! Yeah for progress! Id also like to point out that imo Samuel is nothing in comparison to TGT on the op'd scale imo just due to the fact of the later game hitting power TGT has in comparison to Samuel. Because as long as you put up a proper defense in about 3 turns you have no problem stopping Samuel till your big guns come out mid game. Banding is your friend vs Samuel decks.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #3 on:** September 20, 2011, 09:47:51 PM »

For what its worth, Household Idols is a killer card against both Disciples and Samuel Decks. Gen decks don't have as many issues with it, but Rachel+Jake+Cap can be nasty.

Isildur · « **Reply #4 on:** September 20, 2011, 10:53:42 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on September 20, 2011, 09:47:51 PM

For what its worth, Household Idols is a killer card against both Disciples and Samuel Decks. Gen decks don't have as many issues with it, but Rachel+Jake+Cap can be nasty.

Bah Babel or Siege takes care of that no problem :p

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #5 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:20:20 AM »

To the OP, how many of these cards did you have in your deck: RBD, Nazareth, Covenant with Death, Punisher LS? If the answer was zero, then you have no room to complain.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #6 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:33:45 AM »

The meta's shifted in such a way that we need to start thinking counters. Anti meta (which took third at nats) is still strong. Pol (in his 13000 post, yay round numbers!) points out some good ones to include. (You still need to draw them, bah). I'm not sure about HHI, I'll have to mess with that some. Also consider including the Speed Bump LS.

adotson85 · « **Reply #7 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:40:38 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 21, 2011, 10:20:20 AM

To the OP, how many of these cards did you have in your deck: RBD, Nazareth, Covenant with Death, Punisher LS? If the answer was zero, then you have no room to complain.

Seems that HHI and Hezzy's ring would both be good also. Have you found these to be helpful for anti-meta?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #8 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:42:24 AM »

They are indeed, but you don't want to have 4 antimeta artifacts. Just RBD and CwD risks clog, adding HHI and HSR to the mix just makes it worse. IMO RBD and CwD are the two best, but feel free to mix and match.

adotson85 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:48:18 AM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 21, 2011, 10:42:24 AM

They are indeed, but you don't want to have 4 antimeta artifacts. Just RBD and CwD risks clog, adding HHI and HSR to the mix just makes it worse. IMO RBD and CwD are the two best, but feel free to mix and match.

My Sam deck has been doing great, but those 4 are usually the ones I watch out for. Now that I'm familiar with how the meta works I will probably start making an anti-meta deck. Just not sure what the offense will be.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #10 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:52:42 AM »

Isaiah's pretty good for a compact defense, and can discard Assyrians w/PoJ to hit an opponent's defense. Given speed decks' lack of defense, this can be nasty. Add in the new Cherubim and you've destroyed their defense.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #11 on:** September 21, 2011, 10:59:18 AM »

Nazareth and Covenant with Death is a total killer. Throw in a Lampy and a temple to protect Cov. with Death and you're sitting strong.

adotson85 · « **Reply #12 on:** September 21, 2011, 11:13:39 AM »

Quote from: Ring Wraith on September 21, 2011, 10:59:18 AM

Nazareth and Covenant with Death is a total killer. Throw in a Lampy and a temple to protect Cov. with Death and you're sitting strong.

Covenant with Death is good, but has to be used wisely. It doesn't really stop Sam himself or many of the Genesis heroes due to cbn status. It also hurts your own characters so you need to use an offense/defense that utilizes alot of cbn characters.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #13 on:** September 21, 2011, 11:18:12 AM »

Quote from: adotson85 on September 21, 2011, 11:13:39 AM

Quote from: Ring Wraith on September 21, 2011, 10:59:18 AM
Nazareth and Covenant with Death is a total killer. Throw in a Lampy and a temple to protect Cov. with Death and you're sitting strong.

Covenant with Death is good, but has to be used wisely. It doesn't really stop Sam himself or many of the Genesis heroes due to cbn status. It also hurts your own characters so you need to use an offense/defense that utilizes alot of cbn characters.

It stops the massive Sam band and leaves only two characters in battle, crippling it from drawing 3 cards and giving you initiative. It kills Jacob, the best Genesis hero, as well as destroying most defenses entirely.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #14 on:** September 21, 2011, 12:13:06 PM »

The best offenses to use with Antimeta, I've found, are Isaiah and Judges.

Carl deuty · « **Reply #15 on:** September 21, 2011, 12:28:36 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 21, 2011, 10:20:20 AM

To the OP, how many of these cards did you have in your deck: RBD, Nazareth, Covenant with Death, Punisher LS? If the answer was zero, then you have no room to complain.

I had rain becomes dust, which was quickly destroyed via destruction of nehu, and I had Covenant with Death which was never seen because the game was over so quickly. Before the game, I thought that I had the necessary counters to Sam, but the deck was so fast that it didn't matter. I do think that HHI is the new bomb diggity, and I will start including it in a lot of my decks as well as Nazareth. HHI has always been awesome, but the new set has pushed speed and banding over the top, and I believe HHI should be in any anti meta deck for this reason.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #16 on:** September 21, 2011, 01:17:44 PM »

Partly it sounds like Samuel got a really good draw. If he got an early DoN with RBD up, that's just a nice draw. Almost any deck will steamroll another deck with a really good draw (unless the other deck has a similarly good draw).

Another thing to consider is that Balaam makes a mockery of most meta by himself. If CwD or RBD eats an early DoN, Balaam whips it right back out where it will permanently stifle your opponents. He is not affected by CwD himself, and he can be banded to by one of the other best characters in the game: Manasseh. Balaam is a big FbtN character in game, who can be part of a big CBN band, has access to fantastic enhancements (even more if paired with Manasseh), recurs the 2 best antimeta curses for no cost, and allows for Charms to boot.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #17 on:** September 21, 2011, 01:27:58 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 21, 2011, 01:17:44 PM

Another thing to consider is that Balaam makes a mockery of most meta by himself. If CwD or RBD eats an early DoN, Balaam whips it right back out where it will permanently stifle your opponents. He is not affected by CwD himself, and he can be banded to by one of the other best characters in the game: Manasseh. Balaam is a big FbtN character in game, who can be part of a big CBN band, has access to fantastic enhancements (even more if paired with Manasseh), recurs the 2 best antimeta curses for no cost, and allows for Charms to boot.

Agreed. I liked Balaam the few times I saw him last season (most prominently in T2 Multiplayer) but this season he's even more awesome.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #18 on:** September 22, 2011, 12:31:59 PM »

I've been preaching Balaam + CwD + RBD since the 3rd week of September. He can also use Invoking Terror, which I have found to be one of the best ways to slow down annoying heroes.

Glad to see the band wagon gaining traction.

Kirk

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #19 on:** September 22, 2011, 12:59:23 PM »

After lightly modifying your defense and switching offenses, that deck has been undefeated except against you piloting a mirror.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #20 on:** September 22, 2011, 01:05:07 PM »

Sorry, but I disagree with all the rage about "Covenant with Death". I don't feel that a player should have to sacrifice their own special abilities on their heroes and ECs just to stop one or two annoying popular cards. I might as well play with Unlimited cards if that is what is required. (And yes I know that some characters' abilities are CBN). Confusion of Mind - fine. Golden Calf (when using a NT offense) - fine. But I think the game is taking a step backward if we feel we have to negate our own cards just to stop one specific strategy.

Red · « **Reply #21 on:** September 22, 2011, 01:16:17 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on September 22, 2011, 01:05:07 PM

Sorry, but I disagree with all the rage about "Covenant with Death". I don't feel that a player should have to sacrifice their own special abilities on their heroes and ECs just to stop one or two annoying popular cards. I might as well play with Unlimited cards if that is what is required. (And yes I know that some characters' abilities are CBN). Confusion of Mind - fine. Golden Calf (when using a NT offense) - fine. But I think the game is taking a step backward if we feel we have to negate our own cards just to stop one specific strategy.

The thing with cov with death is it is truly the best of it's kind. Com and Gcow are both outclassed by cov with death and IMHO obseleted.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #22 on:** September 22, 2011, 01:31:47 PM »

How is the game returning to no special character abilities a good thing though?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #23 on:** September 22, 2011, 01:57:52 PM »

CwD is used in decks that specifically mitigate or eliminate the negative effects on your own cards. It's not about going back to Unlimited, it's about weighing your options. Do you run a lot of ridiculously powerful characters and risk the effectiveness of your deck taking a big hit with CwD, or do you opt for more Enhancement-centric decks? Do you include extra ways to counter CwD (ASA being the best), or do you just hope you won't run into many at a tournament?

Carl deuty · « **Reply #24 on:** September 22, 2011, 03:15:44 PM »

Asa, as in the King? or is that an abbreviation?

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #25 on:** September 22, 2011, 03:17:50 PM »

Assyrian Siege Army

lightningninja · « **Reply #26 on:** September 22, 2011, 03:58:45 PM »

The bane of a Samuel deck is that it doesn't have anit-meta cards. So it IS really good meta, but can't stop it. You can EASILY beat a Samuel offense quickly with only 10-15 offensive cards, no joke. And that's probably overkill. And with an Egyptian defense, you can still keep up with it in speed. Include an armorbearer and/or tribal elder and you can steal a large portion of their band.

Captain Kirk · « **Reply #27 on:** September 22, 2011, 04:12:58 PM »

Quote from: stefferweffer on September 22, 2011, 01:05:07 PM

Sorry, but I disagree with all the rage about "Covenant with Death". I don't feel that a player should have to sacrifice their own special abilities on their heroes and ECs just to stop one or two annoying popular cards. I might as well play with Unlimited cards if that is what is required. (And yes I know that some characters' abilities are CBN). Confusion of Mind - fine. Golden Calf (when using a NT offense) - fine. But I think the game is taking a step backward if we feel we have to negate our own cards just to stop one specific strategy.

I am going to take a 100% different stance than you. Character abilities (such as FBN) and play next (such as ET) dominated the game for so many years. It took countless new cards over many years of sets in the attempt to balance them out. FBN can still be effective but is no longer the monster it once was. However, play first is still a very strong ability. Darius' Decree was a masterful card to help balance that out and still is. With the release of evil TC enhancements, there was no way to stop them from being played for 2 seasons. CwD finally provides a counter. There also has been no blanket counter to Evil Character special abilities (compared to blanket counters to Hero SAs such as Golden Calf and CoM). Sure we had HoH and Wool Fleece to prevent certain abilities, but Evil Character abilities have become pretty ridiculous. Point in case: Creeping Deceiver. Creeping Deceiver dominated T2 in particular last year. Now we have a counter to him, along with Spirit of Temptation and other annoying ECs. Throw on top of these already awesome benefits the ability to shut down most heroes allows the game to return closer to the back and forth battles that Redemption used to have.

I think Covenant with Death is one of the best few cards created in the past few years.

Kirk

Gabe · « **Reply #28 on:** September 22, 2011, 04:45:48 PM »

Quote from: Captain Kirk on September 22, 2011, 04:12:58 PM

I think Covenant with Death is one of the best few cards created in the past few years.

Thanks! I agree completely. When it was designed the goal was to give players a tool that would move things toward the basic elements of attacking, blocking and playing enhancements.

Red Wing · « **Reply #29 on:** September 22, 2011, 04:48:00 PM »

I agree with Gabe and Captain Kirk.

stefferweffer · « **Reply #30 on:** September 22, 2011, 05:02:50 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on September 22, 2011, 04:45:48 PM

Quote from: Captain Kirk on September 22, 2011, 04:12:58 PM
I think Covenant with Death is one of the best few cards created in the past few years.

Thanks! I agree completely. When it was designed the goal was to give players a tool that would move things toward the basic elements of attacking, blocking and playing enhancements.

And what was the goal of all the new cards that speed up card drawing? CWD came out at the same time as MORE overpowered cards that it is needed to stop. That's what I don't get. If speed was an acknowledged problem (and I think everyone agrees that it was), then why make MORE cards that encourage decking out even faster?

It's like there's all sorts of acknowledgement here that cards were made that were just too powerful, but rather than errata or ban anything (or stop making cards like that), we'll just keep making counters. All that does is create a scenario (as described in this thread) where whomever gets X card first wins (which already happens with dominants). Covenant with Death is NOT a dependable counter to Samuel if the game is over before you draw it. The appropriate counter to overpowered cards is not to make them so powerful to begin with. Aren't these new cards playtested?

Sorry to rant, but with each new set I'm moving further and further toward believing that its all about everyone buying the powerful new cards and less about improving the game. In the meantime I will continue to try to have fun by swimming against the stream and NOT making these "meta" decks, and then I will graciously lose to them.

And I will certainly never understand all the rejoicing over a card that makes your own character abilities worthless, and FURTHERS the other problem of CBN.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #31 on:** September 22, 2011, 05:07:40 PM »

On paper the situation looks bad, but in theory I've had immense success using a balanced deck against speed. That is to say: I haven't once lost to speed with a balanced deck once I figured out the meta. I can't say that about any other season since Apostles.

Red · « **Reply #32 on:** September 22, 2011, 05:10:46 PM »

Yeah steff CwD is central to the best deck in the game currently and that deck is balanced. samuel and genesis can't stop it if it lasts to mid game.

Gabe · « **Reply #33 on:** September 22, 2011, 05:16:42 PM »

I'm not sure where you get your "acknowledgement" but I've never agreed that "speed is a problem" or that any of the new cards are "too powerful". In fact, if you want someone to blame for card drawing or CBN in the new set I'll gladly be your scapegoat.

We intentionally added card drawing to brigades (or themes) that didn't have it. Judges used to be SOOOOO slow and reliant on Judges Seat that they weren't even remotely competitive. Well, they aren't slow anymore.

Players have been complaining that "red is dead" for several years. It didn't get much drawing but it finally got some reliable CBN battle winners, something it's lacked severely compared to other, more successful brigades.

We virtually "killed" Genesis and purple Royalty with the anti-ignore stuff in Disciples because those themes used to rely a lot on ignore abilities. They both got tools to help them become competitive again.

This set was tested more than any other in recent years, maybe ever. Players like Pol and Lambo were consulted before it went to print to help us see any combos or OP cards we might have missed. I'm rather pleased with the outcome. I'm sorry to hear that you're not.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #34 on:** September 22, 2011, 06:34:15 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 22, 2011, 05:07:40 PM

On paper the situation looks bad, but in theory I've had immense success using a balanced deck against speed. That is to say: I haven't once lost to speed with a balanced deck once I figured out the meta. I can't say that about any other season since Apostles.

Really? Because last season it was pretty easy to stomp the meta, which is why an anti-meta deck took second place last year. The two biggest decks in the game right now are easily taken out by three or four cards. Are Genesis and Sam broken? Yes. Are both easily countered by the same cards? Yup.

Warrior_Monk · « **Reply #35 on:** September 22, 2011, 06:40:48 PM »

Quote from: Chronic Apathy on September 22, 2011, 06:34:15 PM

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 22, 2011, 05:07:40 PM
On paper the situation looks bad, but in theory I've had immense success using a balanced deck against speed. That is to say: I haven't once lost to speed with a balanced deck once I figured out the meta. I can't say that about any other season since Apostles.

Really? Because last season it was pretty easy to stomp the meta, which is why an anti-meta deck took third place last year.

Also, I used my disciples deck for 4 games...

lightningninja · « **Reply #36 on:** September 22, 2011, 06:50:23 PM »

Quote from: Gabe on September 22, 2011, 05:16:42 PM

I'm not sure where you get your "acknowledgement" but I've never agreed that "speed is a problem" or that any of the new cards are "too powerful". In fact, if you want someone to blame for card drawing or CBN in the new set I'll gladly be your scapegoat.

We intentionally added card drawing to brigades (or themes) that didn't have it. Judges used to be SOOOOO slow and reliant on Judges Seat that they weren't even remotely competitive. Well, they aren't slow anymore.

Players have been complaining that "red is dead" for several years. It didn't get much drawing but it finally got some reliable CBN battle winners, something it's lacked severely compared to other, more successful brigades.

We virtually "killed" Genesis and purple Royalty with the anti-ignore stuff in Disciples because those themes used to rely a lot on ignore abilities. They both got tools to help them become competitive again.

This set was tested more than any other in recent years, maybe ever. Players like Pol and Lambo were consulted before it went to print to help us see any combos or OP cards we might have missed. I'm rather pleased with the outcome. I'm sorry to hear that you're not.

I agree wholeheartedly. Except for the Samuel argument, no one still uses Judges. They just splash in samuel and Angel under the Oak. I think making those cards work that effectively only if you had mostly judges would have been better, because still there is no reason to use judges, red/samuel/purple is a much better use of Samuel, and better in mostly every way. But yeah, I agree the new set is actually amazingly balanced.

Everyone is complaining about offense... but seriously, Uzzah, Failed Objective, Death of Unrightousness and the like got virtually untouched. Samuel can't stop that.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #37 on:** September 23, 2011, 10:07:49 AM »

Quote from: lightningninja on September 22, 2011, 06:50:23 PM

I agree wholeheartedly. Except for the Samuel argument, no one still uses Judges. They just splash in samuel and Angel under the Oak. I think making those cards work that effectively only if you had mostly judges would have been better, because still there is no reason to use judges,

I cannot tell you how much I disagree with this.

SomeKittens · « **Reply #38 on:** September 23, 2011, 10:31:32 AM »

Judges are still used in hero-lite and anti-meta.

Red · « **Reply #39 on:** September 23, 2011, 10:40:31 AM »

Judges are the best offense right now. I can't lose worse than 5-4 if I don't get an absolutly horrid hand.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #40 on:** September 23, 2011, 10:43:12 AM »

Judges are very underrated. They have a bit of everything, and very good ones of each of those.

lightningninja · « **Reply #41 on:** September 23, 2011, 05:58:32 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on September 23, 2011, 10:07:49 AM

Quote from: lightningninja on September 22, 2011, 06:50:23 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. Except for the Samuel argument, no one still uses Judges. They just splash in samuel and Angel under the Oak. I think making those cards work that effectively only if you had mostly judges would have been better, because still there is no reason to use judges,

I cannot tell you how much I disagree with this.

This was entirely talking about T1. You are still permitted to disagree, just clarifying.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #42 on:** September 25, 2011, 11:48:28 PM »

Quote from: lightningninja on September 23, 2011, 05:58:32 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on September 23, 2011, 10:07:49 AM
Quote from: lightningninja on September 22, 2011, 06:50:23 PM
I agree wholeheartedly. Except for the Samuel argument, no one still uses Judges. They just splash in samuel and Angel under the Oak. I think making those cards work that effectively only if you had mostly judges would have been better, because still there is no reason to use judges,

I cannot tell you how much I disagree with this.
This was entirely talking about T1. You are still permitted to disagree, just clarifying.

Thank you for clarifying, but I still disagree. Judges are bomb-diggity in T2, but I've seen quite a few T1 Judges offenses that are quite alright themselves.

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Author Topic: New Set Experience (Read 6468 times)

Warrior_Monk

Warrior_Monk

Chronic Apathy

Warrior_Monk