Author Topic: Meek Heroes  (Read 3432 times)

Offline jesse

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Meek Heroes
« on: March 16, 2021, 11:40:01 AM »
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Now that LoC has been out for a while, I was wondering how everyone feels about meek Heroes. Are they consistent enough to be viable, or are they too often lacking the needed support?
Love is the flame of God, Who is love and an all-consuming fire!- Song. 8:6-7, 1 Jn. 4:8, Deut. 4:24

Offline Watchman

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2021, 08:22:54 PM »
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Funny you should mention this because I am designing a meek-themed offense.  So Iíll let you know once I get some games in with it (hopefully one of them with you). 😉
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Offline jesse

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2021, 10:00:36 PM »
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Haha that would be great!

I was deliberating about which version of David is best for a red offense, and realized that if meek wasn't the way to go, then CoW's David the Shepherd may take the crown. But I haven't played any games using a meek offense yet, and know there are a lot of strong support cards for it, so I wanted to hear from others on it.

It's such an interesting strategy, because of the high risk of if you don't get the support cards you need, then you're using no-SA Heroes for rescues! I think that in and of itself is really fun.

I'd love to hear what T2 players think of meek offenses, as well. Is meek the new "meta" for T1 and T2?
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2021, 12:49:17 AM »
+2
I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say meek is the new meta. I think it will be awhile before a meek Hero offense is able to compete with the top dogs, but there are some cards that make it a tempting option like Windows of Narrow Light, Goshen, Mary, and Begats. At this point though I think their role is mostly in support for strategies like Impartial Judgment, or just for use with bounce cards when it comes to David, HAG, Father Abe, Noah, and Zerubbabel. There's maybe an argument to be made for Judges offenses with Samuel's Edict, but usually Gideon and maybe Samson are the only ones used.

I sadly haven't made many Type 2 decks lately since there haven't been any tournaments here and there aren't many people willing to play it online... But there may be some meek Type 2 strategies since you can use multiples of the payoff cards like Impartial Judgment and Solomon's Dream, but again, I think they're mainly support at this point though I would be curious to see what meek-focused decks people are trying out. Closest I've come so far is my Legion of Angels deck.  :D

Offline jesse

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2021, 12:59:29 AM »
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Awesome, that's super helpful! So I see that at this point, meek heroes are typically used sparingly as support, with bounce to revert them back to non-meek.

Thanks for the great insights!
Love is the flame of God, Who is love and an all-consuming fire!- Song. 8:6-7, 1 Jn. 4:8, Deut. 4:24

Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2021, 02:30:06 AM »
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Oh yeah, and I think for a red offense, David, Outcasts' Refuge is better in pretty much every case, in my opinion. I think in the current meta, David, the Shepherd just doesn't do enough. If he searched AND banded, then maybe, but as is he's too slow compared to Outcasts' Refuge. I could see running one of each in Type 2 since you'll have more Heroes to pull from deck and the games are a little slower-paced anyway, but in Type 1, having the option to band to Benaiah from Reserve on turn 1 is super strong and having Angel of the Winds in Reserve as well all but guarantees you can get to David right away with all the Artifact- and Hero-fetching from Reserve going on these days. Just ask Watchman, he's got a pretty solid red build he's been running and tweaking since Nats at least. The only case I think I could really see for running the Shepherd these days is a royalty unity deck with Throne, Zion, etc. since God's King got nerfed with the ignore change, but even then I think people would still run Outcasts' Refuge to band to Jehoshaphat (and the other purple/red kings) with the Isaiah splashed in there. In that build and others, Outcasts' Refuge also has the flexibility of drawing as well from the meek kings you'd probably be running. Stuff like Reverence and Awe and David's Descendent make the "play Throne from deck" part of the Shepherd a little less exciting too.

Offline Watchman

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2021, 08:55:14 AM »
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In the build Iím doing I chose DOR over DHAG for some of the reasons Jayden mentioned. Heís way too good (and big numbers) over running DHAG for what Iím looking to accomplish. For example, this is one of the bands I plan on using:

DOR - Jehoshaphat - Jotham (convert to meek) - band to whatever meek guy I have, or choose one from my reserve that I snag with Jothamís ability.

In that band are two meek heroes that will benefit from various support cards that hopefully I have in territory, as well as enhs I have in hand. And if I have Windows (not Microsoft Windows 😂 ) active my DOR, Jehoshaphat, and Jotham wonít be prevented due to their modifiers.

DHAG is definitely a great card, but itís needed for specific deck builds and techy plays.  Whereas DOR is so flexible and strong. And I agree with Jayden that DtS is definitely out this summer. 😁

So my offense isnít purely meek bc I want to benefit from certain abilities that get me to meek, such as banding, but once I get to meek I can benefit from certain abilities associated with them.  And not all of my rescues will band, of course, so I can switch to plays like Joseph to meek Jehoshaphat in deck or reserve to increase him to Voltron status.
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Offline Red

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2021, 08:56:44 AM »
+1
I definitely wouldn't go so far as to say meek is the new meta. I think it will be awhile before a meek Hero offense is able to compete with the top dogs, but there are some cards that make it a tempting option like Windows of Narrow Light, Goshen, Mary, and Begats. At this point though I think their role is mostly in support for strategies like Impartial Judgment, or just for use with bounce cards when it comes to David, HAG, Father Abe, Noah, and Zerubbabel. There's maybe an argument to be made for Judges offenses with Samuel's Edict, but usually Gideon and maybe Samson are the only ones used.

I sadly haven't made many Type 2 decks lately since there haven't been any tournaments here and there aren't many people willing to play it online... But there may be some meek Type 2 strategies since you can use multiples of the payoff cards like Impartial Judgment and Solomon's Dream, but again, I think they're mainly support at this point though I would be curious to see what meek-focused decks people are trying out. Closest I've come so far is my Legion of Angels deck.  :D
I personally think that a variation of postexillics is out there that focuses on Meek Support over banding to Zechariah. I also may or may not know that said variation won TN State in a landslide.
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Offline jesse

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2021, 01:48:12 PM »
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I see...what is a recommended Hero lineup for T1 then? Since the draw on David, Outcasts' Refuge is based on the # of your meek Heroes, are you adding in some straight meek Heroes, or just waiting until mid-to-late game when you've already converted some Heroes to meek (to get the benefits of doing so) before you use DOR?

As far as David, the Shepherd with a red (non-Throne) offense, I like the play of grabbing Abram's Army/Ahimelek the Hittite, and then using Battle Cry/Not Alone etc. to band them in. Obviously it depends a lot on your strategy, and DOR's first ability is great, but I just feel like most of the time the draw isn't going to get you anything unless you're fully running meek Heroes.
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Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2021, 01:58:01 PM »
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Meek has some great support. And I mean GREAT. For type 2 I feel like many powerful offenses can and probably should run some meek support strictly based on the power of some of those support cards. Solomons dream in particular.

As for a deck that's primarily meek characters that is probably tbd. Postexillic is likely the shell imo. Mostly due to cards like Nehemiah, and that the other meek offenses seem to be better served utilizing SAs with some meek capabilities.

Offline jesse

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #10 on: March 18, 2021, 02:44:19 PM »
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Yes, in T2 it's even more difficult to be consistent, and I feel like it would be really tough running all or mostly meek Heroes, even with all the support cards, because you'd often be lacking those support cards and just using meek Heroes for rescues - especially in the beginning of the game. But as Jayden mentioned, 4x Samuel's Edict would help in a gold offense. For red, perhaps Solomon's Dream x2 with A Soldier's Prayer x4 could be enough to keep from a slow start.
Love is the flame of God, Who is love and an all-consuming fire!- Song. 8:6-7, 1 Jn. 4:8, Deut. 4:24

Offline Reth

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2021, 07:28:02 PM »
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IMO meek heroes are strongest RN when being able to repeatable use them from non-meek to meek and bouncing them again. This triggers their SAs while when they activated they get more or less CBI and after they turned to meek they benefit from all the support cards (e.g. TC heroes). Also if you manage to activate enough cards like Window of Narrow Lights trigger.

Where these kind of things become even more interesting is the LoC only format since there are so many in this set!

Regarding powerful offenses to my experience in T1 2P strongest are the big, quick setting up banding chains which benefit from all their SAs like Red Warriors/Throne, Postexilic Speed and Daniel builds which in addition provides several layers of protection. This speed and power IMO you cannot achieve with TC class setup cards.

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2021, 10:20:09 AM »
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So if I'm reading these correctly, for a Meek (only) deck to be viable, we need to create some meek heroes that don't have the super powerful "convert to meek" abilities because it is simply too tempting to just abuse that instead of relying on benefits from the character itself.  Given that we need some killer enhancements that do tremendous things that "if used by meek" or "X = # of meek heroes" or "convert your hero to meek to do."  This would allow the enhancements to do the heavy lifting instead of the convert this hero to meek doing to work.  Am I correct in that analysis to generate some purely meek hero decks?

Offline jesse

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2021, 11:41:39 AM »
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Great analysis guys, and yes Chris I think you hit the nail on the head - for a meek (only) Hero offense to be viable, we do need enhancements like that:

Quote
"Given that we need some killer enhancements that do tremendous things that "if used by meek" or "X = # of meek heroes" or "convert your hero to meek to do."

Like Samuel's Edict
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2021, 12:29:04 PM »
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@Jesse  I honestly donít ever use DORís draw with my red deck; I just use him for his strong grab from reserve and band.  But for this meek offense Iím building the draw is much more tempting due to meek heroes Iíll have in play, so I could just end the band with him to get the draw if I donít need to begin or midway band with him.  Heís still the best David for a red or purple offense IMO.  There plenty of other ways to get out Throne (if Iím using that offense)  if I donít use DtS, such as Cov with David, Rev and Awe, Davidís Descendant, etc.  DtS does search and play a red hero, but he doesnít band to the hero.  DOR searches (from reserve) AND bands to a red hero AND heís CBN.

@Crashfach I personally like the convert to meek abilities as I feel you get the most bang for your buck with those:  youíre using an ability, gaining a benefit, and have meek strategies going on. Yes, meek-specific enhs are great, but the convert to meek I feel is better.

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Offline jesse

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2021, 12:52:09 PM »
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@Watchman gotcha, I agree that the CBN band - such as from Reserve to Benaiah - is super strong and awesome on DOR. And while Bravery of David requires just 1 Hero in battle, red has many great enhancements. It's fun that there are so many great options to choose from!
Love is the flame of God, Who is love and an all-consuming fire!- Song. 8:6-7, 1 Jn. 4:8, Deut. 4:24

Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2021, 01:10:00 PM »
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@Crashfach I personally like the convert to meek abilities as I feel you get the most bang for your buck with those:  youíre using an ability, gaining a benefit, and have meek strategies going on. Yes, meek-specific enhs are great, but the convert to meek I feel is better.

I agree that convert to meek is a much "better" ability, but is it REALLY a meek deck if you are abusing character abilities over and over again like we currently are with LoC.  I guess that is a matter of personal definition but if you talking a "truly" meek deck Judges is the only one that has really been done based on not using character abilities.

Offline The Schaefer

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2021, 01:25:05 PM »
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@Crashfach I personally like the convert to meek abilities as I feel you get the most bang for your buck with those:  youíre using an ability, gaining a benefit, and have meek strategies going on. Yes, meek-specific enhs are great, but the convert to meek I feel is better.

I agree that convert to meek is a much "better" ability, but is it REALLY a meek deck if you are abusing character abilities over and over again like we currently are with LoC.  I guess that is a matter of personal definition but if you talking a "truly" meek deck Judges is the only one that has really been done based on not using character abilities.
The convert to meek may actually be just as meek as "judges". Thats only cause AUTO typically enters first then likely meek Gideon if were looking at meek. Which you can do that every turn if you have both. That seems really similar to needed a convert to meek character and a bounce effect every turn to utilize the converteffect every turn.

Though I do like theme specific enhancements so I'd be of the opinion that a mix of both would be good. Just varying degrees among meek themes.

Offline Reth

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2021, 02:02:32 PM »
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killer enhancements that do tremendous things that "if used by meek" or "X = # of meek heroes" or "convert your hero to meek to do."

Hmm, but wouldn't this also be working on a bunch of heroes who were sent into battle used their SA while being converted to meek then?
It could be more restrictive though like "if all your heroes are meek ..." but even then one could use the convert to meek SA before.

I really like the "convert to meek" to get the effect + being able to bounce them back again! Great mechanic. Maybe a little bit OP in making all of them inherently CBI though.

Offline Sean

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2021, 06:17:10 PM »
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What if you had Heroes that had special abilities that played off of meek Enhancements?
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Offline TheJaylor

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2021, 10:27:27 PM »
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As long as bounce abilities are easily available, "benefit + convert to meek" will pretty much always be the best option for any deck that utilizes "if used by a meek Hero" Enhancements, unless maybe a Hero version of the old school Altar of Dagon is printed...  :P

"Convert your Hero to meek to benefit" is a cool idea and might encourage some meek offenses, but it limits you to two-sided characters and you're still getting the benefit from their SA side.

I think "# of your meek Heroes" stuff and even Unity: Heroes (meek) stuff would be the most effective in promoting meek-focused offenses. Mary is probably one of the better payoff cards but since the ability is on a Hero then it makes the Unity option not quite as good.

What if you had Heroes that had special abilities that played off of meek Enhancements?
You mean like this guy? :P
Spoiler (hover to show)

But yeah, it would be cool to see some new meek Enhancement synergy with Heroes. Closest I've come is using Letters to the Churches with Coliseum and Ethiopian Treasurer. Maybe a Hero that says something like, "Meek Enhancements played on this Hero gain 'Negate an evil card', 'Draw 2 cards', or 'Band to a Hero'."

Offline Sean

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2021, 12:11:24 PM »
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But yeah, it would be cool to see some new meek Enhancement synergy with Heroes. Closest I've come is using Letters to the Churches with Coliseum and Ethiopian Treasurer. Maybe a Hero that says something like, "Meek Enhancements played on this Hero gain 'Negate an evil card', 'Draw 2 cards', or 'Band to a Hero'."

I was thinking along those lines at first but then I thought instead of using Sites, Fortresses, and Artifacts to generate boosts for meek cards as Threshing Floor does but instead incorporate the trigger type stuff.  "if your meek Hero is being discarded do X instead"  "if you play a meek enhancement, do X"  "If your meek Hero enters battle, band all meek heroes into battle. (unity meek Heroes)"
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Offline Watchman

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2021, 11:20:48 AM »
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@Crashfach, one of the problems with not using the abilities to convert to meek to gain some benefit is there is no mechanism/ability in place that would allow for meek heroes to initially band when entering battle.  Short of enhancements like Marriage Covenant, etc., there would need to be support cards, like a Paul's Books and Parchments kind of card that would allow for meek heroes to initially band. 
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Offline Crashfach2002

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2021, 09:51:55 AM »
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@Crashfach, one of the problems with not using the abilities to convert to meek to gain some benefit is there is no mechanism/ability in place that would allow for meek heroes to initially band when entering battle.  Short of enhancements like Marriage Covenant, etc., there would need to be support cards, like a Paul's Books and Parchments kind of card that would allow for meek heroes to initially band.

Ah, now we are getting to the real question at hand and why I asked this question in the first place.  I like a lot of the ideas that have been throw around and there are a couple that I haven't thought of yet.  But I LOVE what LoC did and would like to try to find ways to continue to use it and even figure out a way to make playing mostly if not all meek could be a solid and viable strategy.  Easier said than done, but I've liked the conversation so far!

Offline Reth

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2021, 10:01:32 AM »
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Ah, now we are getting to the real question at hand and why I asked this question in the first place.  I like a lot of the ideas that have been throw around and there are a couple that I haven't thought of yet.  But I LOVE what LoC did and would like to try to find ways to continue to use it and even figure out a way to make playing mostly if not all meek could be a solid and viable strategy.  Easier said than done, but I've liked the conversation so far!

I also like the bounce possibility - independently from the meek topic and would love to see it being further developed too (while this is now a little OT for this thread).

Offline Lampy 2.0

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Re: Meek Heroes
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2021, 02:23:45 PM »
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I like the idea of the meek hero mechanic as it makes a lot of the old heroes from the early sets just a bit more playable.
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