Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Redemption® Resources and Thinktank => Strategies and Combos => Topic started by: megamanlan on February 11, 2017, 06:21:08 PM
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So, I have a question: What Defense has the best draw power? I know Egyptians used to be the best, but I have to wonder if they have been outclassed yet.
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A set up Egyptian defense might still be the best, but that's if you have everything in place (Dreaming Pharaoh w/ Horses, Storehouse, 7 Years of Plenty and Pharaoh's Baker).
In terms of drawing without much set up, I think splash Gray with Emperor Vittles, Sabbath Breaker, Proud Pharisee, Pretension & Naaman's Chariot and Horses might be the best in terms of early game drawing.
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lol, so its really still either Egyptians or Pharisee's (with some Roman Emperor's added for good measure). And I was expecting more of a change in the game. Im guessing a lot of the other's either rely on the speed of the offense or just searching cards?
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Animals are quite fast with Esau the Hunter and Honey from a Lion. They also have access to Dream and Nebuchadnezzar in brigade.
I would say the best evil drawing cards in the game are Messenger of Satan and Broken Covenant because they can fit into virtually any defense.
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Damsel with spirit of divination can also get a lot of cards, considering how common Sword of the Spirit is. Even without it, the opponent usually has 2-5 good brigades in hand.
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lol, so its really still either Egyptians or Pharisee's (with some Roman Emperor's added for good measure). And I was expecting more of a change in the game. Im guessing a lot of the other's either rely on the speed of the offense or just searching cards?
Well, there's drawing and then there's speed. In recent sets, we've given many defenses ways to get set up without necessarily drawing because drawing can often have drawbacks. Michal from Cloud of Witnesses is a good example. While she's not a turn 1 draw 3 like Sabbath Breaker, she's very good in the mid-game to get more characters out of your deck without using a draw or search ability.
The thing is, even if Egyptians and Gray are the fastest in terms of pure drawing, they really aren't a huge part of the current meta that I've seen. I've seen many more combinations of Brown, Pale Green and Crimson as well as straight Black Philistines (which counter the most popular offenses very well).
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Yea, the main issue is my offense (Angels) isn't the best at having any kind of efficient ways of grabbing what you need, and as such kinda relies on the defense to either thin the deck or just draw massive amounts to counteract that problem.
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Wheel, Attending Angel, Angelic Guidance, Angelic News there are a few draw angels too.
I would say the best evil draw arch is either Brown or Gray. You can also use artifacts to supplement speed
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Angelic News, Angelic Guidence, Angel at Shur (if using O.T.), Attending Angel, Angel of Warning, Angel Under the Oak, Birth Foretold. They have a lot, and I'm sure I'm missing a few!
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Honestly cards like Angelic News and Birth Foretold end up out of the deck as for me, Birth Foretold only gets me 1 card to search and I just can't fit a Draw card that doesn't do more. (That and I still support Angels getting a Interrupt the Battle, Draw 2-3 and Play Next.)
I do like Attending Angel, but he ends up either dying to get me an Enhancement or making me waste the card I just grabbed. I will say though I love AuTO, Shur, and Guidence. Warning to me falls into that category of needing more then just Chamber to play (since the reveal Hand thing is what Cherubim now does.)
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Yea, the main issue is my offense (Angels) isn't the best at having any kind of efficient ways of grabbing what you need, and as such kinda relies on the defense to either thin the deck or just draw massive amounts to counteract that problem.
I think the problem is that you are using mono-Silver as your offense. Silver has powerful heroes and inherent protection from many battlewinners, but it is just too slow to compete with other top offenses. I believe that is sort of by design. Silver has been designated as a support brigade - with the advantages it already has, I don't think the playtesters want to be giving Silver ItB/D3/Play Next or a second AUTO that searches for Angels instead of Judges.
Besides, sticking with Silver can mean playing a sub-optimal deck. For example, I'm sure you are using AUTO and Captain in your Silver offense. I don't know what the last Silver hero is that you put in your deck, but I'm fairly confident that it isn't better than Joshua son of Nun.
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Just curious, did you see the 2nd place t12p deck from 2015? It's on the boards and is called Spirit Thing. Great example of a mono silver offense which placed competitively at nationals
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Yea, the main issue is my offense (Angels) isn't the best at having any kind of efficient ways of grabbing what you need, and as such kinda relies on the defense to either thin the deck or just draw massive amounts to counteract that problem.
I think the problem is that you are using mono-Silver as your offense. Silver has powerful heroes and inherent protection from many battlewinners, but it is just too slow to compete with other top offenses. I believe that is sort of by design. Silver has been designated as a support brigade - with the advantages it already has, I don't think the playtesters want to be giving Silver ItB/D3/Play Next or a second AUTO that searches for Angels instead of Judges.
Besides, sticking with Silver can mean playing a sub-optimal deck. For example, I'm sure you are using AUTO and Captain in your Silver offense. I don't know what the last Silver hero is that you put in your deck, but I'm fairly confident that it isn't better than Joshua son of Nun.
I know Angels are sub-optimal, but then again they typically have been for a long time. But at the same time they have also managed to do well too. I've never really understood why Angels can't get more non-support other decks support but that's besides the point.
What I have found with Angels is that they can do well, they just have to be paired with an Evil Character archetype that can hold your Opponent's heroes' at bay and either give you speed or stall long enough for you to set up. That and it's still hard to beat Micheal + Wheel + Angel's Sword.
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AutO, Wheel, Guidance, Attending Angel, Angelic News, Angel at Shur + Gabriel to recur any of the enhancements, and that's still not fast enough for you? :P
Mono-silver/mono-orange would have won T1-2P at Nationals 2015 if not for the crazy Arrest in Gethesame combo so mono-silver is certainly viable.
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Honestly I tend to use the Warriors Gab as it won me Minnesota state a few years ago. (Gab is awesome when your Opponent has soul drought. Lol)
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Except in decks including Daniel, the starter Gabriel is strictly better.
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The recurring Gab?
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I've seen a decent Angel/Philistine deck do pretty good at OCA tournaments before PC and EC came out. With some of the newer stuff since then, it should do better. try that out, maybe. Philistine outpost searches out ECs, which will help with speed, plus there is chariots, which can help a lot.
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Hmm... I actually never thought of a Phillistine defense. I'll have to try that. Also for Crimson, which is better? Babylonian or Heretics or a mix of both?
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Depends on the deck, but in most cases Babylonians are superior, and I would not mix them except for possibly adding Simon the Magician to a Babylonian defense if you also add a couple NT EE (i.e. Hypocrisy)and if you have Invoking Terror.
A Heretics defense is much more effective in T2 where rescuer's choice allows you to stall block with the various LS protect abilities.
"Splash" Crimson is also pretty effective since it has so many great characters:
Nebuchanezzar
Sapphira
The Serpent
Judas Iscariot
Deluders
Lions
There's a bunch more that I would consider using, but they're more dependent on your EE selection (i.e. Nergal & Simon).
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Hmm.... Okay. (The Heretics I was considering running is the one the bands to a Demon and maybe False Teacher and/or Philetus)
I'll probably try out Babylonians then, maybe they will work with my Angels. Also is there a N.T. Angel searcher (besides Gab meets Zach and Guidance)
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I would say the best evil draw arch is either Brown or Gray. You can also use artifacts to supplement speed
i really like brown with the new cow guys. and, depending on the situation, provoked can draw you nine cards, with the new sword of the spirit being so popular. and there is always wickedness abounds which can be really helpful if you can pull it off. plus, brown has debatably the best battle winners of any defense with some awesome characters to back it up like gomer and foul spirit. splash brown might not be the fastest, but it is certainly the one of the best defenses right now, especially when paired with a small splash of orange, like KoT or MoS.
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Hmm.... Okay. (The Heretics I was considering running is the one the bands to a Demon and maybe False Teacher and/or Philetus)
I'll probably try out Babylonians then, maybe they will work with my Angels. Also is there a N.T. Angel searcher (besides Gab meets Zach and Guidance)
Last year right around Nationals I was using a mono-Silver/Animals deck that was pretty effective. I also included Fallen Angel (WA) since he can band to "non-humans." If I had played T1 instead of T2, I was planning to run that deck, but playing T2 turned out pretty well... ::)
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Back to the OP, the meta has shifted away from pure speed defenses in favor of more blocking power. So while a brown/crimson/Philistine defense may not having the drawing potential found in grey, those defenses will be get way more blocks. Recent sets have significantly leveled the playing field for defensive speed (Hymanaeus, Shrine to Artemis, Messenger of Satan, King Achish, ect.).
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So in other words, the game finally evolved past using the micro-defense.
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So in other words, the game finally evolved past using the micro-defense.
For the most part yes. If by micro, you mean Gomer, Uzzah, KoT, Haman's Plot and Scattered, then yes, those defenses aren't really around much. However, some decks are still viable with a 10-12 card defense if built correctly, though obviously those are susceptible to poor defensive draws.
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For reference, the top 3 decks at Nationals in T1 2P all used 14+ defensive cards (counting only ECs/EEs).
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So in other words, the game finally evolved past using the micro-defense.
For the most part yes. If by micro, you mean Gomer, Uzzah, KoT, Haman's Plot and Scattered, then yes, those defenses aren't really around much. However, some decks are still viable with a 10-12 card defense if built correctly, though obviously those are susceptible to poor defensive draws.
Well the one I'm remembering was before Scattered was out and used Sabbath Breaker. But yay, I really didn't like that one. It was kinda annoying.
Glad to see normal defense is finally back.