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Who wins if foreign wives blocks from hand against a Zebulun who is ignoring toughness 5 or more but you drew more than 5 on your turn.

So it's a stalemate?

So it's a stalemate?

Based upon what Kariusvega said I believe initiative would pass to FW.

Quote from: Cnakeeyes on November 03, 2016, 07:30:15 PM

So it's a stalemate?

Based upon what Kariusvega said I believe initiative would pass to FW.

The battle would be in a stalemate situation and since the blocking player played the last card, initiative would pass to the rescuing player. The reason it's a stalemate even though Zeb can't target FW with the battle winning portion of ignore is that ignore contains a clause that is very similar to a protect ability and targets the ignoring character. The REG entry explains it pretty well:

An ignore ability has four parts:
1. The ignoring card cannot be targeted by an ability that is on a card it is ignoring, or on a card
played on that card, and when comparing the strength of the ignored character to the toughness of
the ignoring character, the strength of the ignored character is treated as zero.
2. The ignored card cannot be targeted by an ability that is on a card that is ignoring it, or on a card
played on that card, and when comparing the strength of the ignoring character to the toughness of
the ignored character, the strength of the ignoring character is treated as zero.
3. Characters not in battle and targeted as ignored cannot enter battle.
4. Characters already in battle and ignored are treated as though they were not in battle for purposes of
determining battle outcome, regardless of whether all opposing characters are ignoring the
characters.

Part (1) above targets the cards that gain the ignore status. Parts (2), (3), and (4) above target the cards that are
ignored.

It's not a stalemate, because Zeb's battle winning portion of the ignore ability is up and active before FW's immune ability get's to activate and protect her from it. if FW was in battle first and Zeb was added after, it would be stalemate, but an immune ability played after an ignore ability does functionally nothing, since the ignore grants an immune-like state anyway and since you can't protect yourself from something that has already happened without an interrupt/negate.

FW can't be targeted by the ignore until she's in play and the instant she's in play she's protected. Zeb being there beforehand or not shouldn't matter.

The instant FW enters play she is protected. How does Zeb ever get a chance to target her?

Edit: I wish elders would reply to ruling questions more often since this kind of thing so easily becomes an "I'm right" "No, I'm right" situation. Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, as long as there is disagreement there is someone to benefit from a definitive answer.

The instant FW enters play she is protected. How does Zeb ever get a chance to target her?

Edit: I wish elders would reply to ruling questions more often since this kind of thing so easily becomes an "I'm right" "No, I'm right" situation. Regardless of who is right and who is wrong, as long as there is disagreement there is someone to benefit from a definitive answer.

The problem with your assertion is that it's not an "I'm right""No, I'm right" situation. It's an "I'm right""No, I'm right and here are the rules showing why" situation...

well i play with elders.. thus my experience comes from where you seek an authoritative answer

well clearly these questions and answers did not arise while you were..

while when i have played with them, they have- which is simply why i am providing them.

yeah i understand i mean i have literally played thousands of games on lackey with play testers, elders, and veterans :p

i'm not saying this to get a rise, only to ensure you that these rulings would most likely be the case at the next nationals assuming the rules remain the same..

by the way, if you want to -1 my answers to your questions i'll go ahead and stop posting the responses..

like i said it is to my personal benefit for you to not know the rules come nationals

this is the reason elders sometimes tend to steer clear of argumentative discussions :p

thank you

Ignore is an ongoing ability prior to the 2015 reg update foreign wives would not even be able to enter battle from hand. Now if an evil character which is ignored is played from hand or was protected in territory from ignore then enters battle ignored and interrupts/negates the ignore an enhancement may be played on the no longer ignored character by regular or special initiative etc

ongoing abilities take precedence based on the order in which they are played this is why it works this way

i mean myself and praeceps answered your question

Ignore is an ongoing ability prior to the 2015 reg update foreign wives would not even be able to enter battle from hand. Now if an evil character which is ignored is played from hand or was protected in territory from ignore then enters battle ignored and interrupts/negates the ignore an enhancement may be played on the no longer ignored character by regular or special initiative etc

ongoing abilities take precedence based on the order in which they are played this is why it works this way

I agree with everything everything in that quote, except I disagree in how it applies to this situation. The order of precedence for ongoing abilities is mostly important for abilities transitioning from phase to phase. Also while an ability may be ongoing, the action of updating of the targeting of a card is instant. The way I understand it, when a card is played the thing that takes the highest precedence of all is that card's ability resolving and, as far as I know, this takes place before anything else can happen. First the ability (and any other abilities that target or modify the ability itself such as instead and prevention) resolves, then anything that targets the card itself (Zeb in this case) apply. The reason this impasse has occurred between us is the actual mechanics and order in which these things happen is not clearly laid out in any official material I can find and results in each of us being forced to come up with our own interpretations. There are several questions I have that as far as I have found simply cannot be adequately answered by the current written rules we have which is why I desperately want to ask them of a living rule book that can fill in the gaps (An elder).

I'm going to bed so there won't be any more replies from me here. Hopefully I can wake up to an elder response but if not I don't really have anything else to say that hasn't been said a dozen times.

INE (I'm no Elder) but I have judged Nationals and so I'm using that experience to rule this how I would have if it had come up there.

That's the next best thing, thanks for replying. The question I wanted to ask if an elder showed up is when a character enters battle from hand, what is the precise order things happen in? Given your ruling I would assume now it's:
1. Character is considered in play and battle
2. Abilities that target the character's ability update
3. Abilities that target the character itself update
4. The character's own ability activates
5. Triggered abilities that involve the character entering battle or the special ability on it activate

Also, is there anywhere in the REG this information is clearly given or is it just something that only exists as a precedent set by ruling decisions?

I'm at work so don't have time to give an extensive ruling, but my current understanding is that you cannot be immune/protected from an ignore ability that is already in effect. Likewise, you cannot ignore a character that is already protected/immune.

I thought you cannot be immune to a character already ignoring you but you can ignore a character that is immune to you, it just results in a stalemate.

So, to recap, KevintheDude agrees with TheHobbit, and The Guardian agrees with himself. 

I agree with your agreement with who is in agreement

I believe that Zebulun's ignore ability updates immediately to include ignoring FW.

Consider that John (I) attacks. He is negating ECs (which defaults to ECs in play). King of Tyrus blocks from hand. John prevents King of Tyrus as soon as he hits the table before KoT's ability to negate John can activate.

Another example would be John (I) attacks and Uzzah blocks from hand. If Uzzah's ability is allowed to activate before John can negate him, then Uzzah uses his ability and goes to the discard pile where he is no longer in play for John to negate him, which is clearly not how we've ruled it.

foreign wives is protected, but is also ignored.

I see ignore as a"regardless of protection" type deal. I agree with JD. I think wives is protected after their ability activates but is being ignored regardless because she doesn't interrupt or negate Zeb