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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Josh on January 04, 2018, 11:19:29 PM
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I have You Will Remain active and attack. Opponent blocks with Goliath. Does YWR trigger during Goliath's ability when my original hero is removed from battle and I have not yet presented a new hero?
Can't find abilities right now, will post them tomorrow if needed
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You will remain is triggered but cannot complete until Goliath's ability is completed. If you present another hero the conditions are not met for the trigger to activate when it "tries". If you don't present another hero then you can present a hero of your choice with YWR because opponent's abilities are technically removing your last hero from battle.
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+1
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YWR's ability: "If opponent uses an evil “end the battle” ability this turn, you may begin a new battle. If an opponent removes your last Hero from battle, you may remove this from the game to add your Hero to battle."
YWR's trigger is not in having no heroes in battle, but in having your last hero removed from battle. Goliath appears to meet this condition, which would trigger YWR before Goliath's ability completes.
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Pretty sure all abilities complete before triggered abilities can even check.
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YWR's ability: "If opponent uses an evil “end the battle” ability this turn, you may begin a new battle. If an opponent removes your last Hero from battle, you may remove this from the game to add your Hero to battle."
YWR's trigger is not in having no heroes in battle, but in having your last hero removed from battle. Goliath appears to meet this condition, which would trigger YWR before Goliath's ability completes.
Your last Hero isn't considered removed from battle unless the completed ability would leave you with no character in battle. Abilities complete instantly so unless you don't add a new Hero, there is no actual period of time where the conditions for YWR are met.
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Pretty sure all abilities complete before triggered abilities can even check.
Then why does a Purple King get to play off of Throne when blocked by Uzzah?
Triggers are always checking, and when the trigger is tripped, it goes off - even mid-ability. At that point, the triggered ability is trying to activate, it just has to wait for prior abilities to complete.
Your last Hero isn't considered removed from battle unless the completed ability would leave you with no character in battle.
By definition, my last hero is removed from battle when my last hero is removed from battle. And this happens when Goliath withdraws all heroes.
As to your use of the word "considered", see my next argument below.
Abilities complete instantly so unless you don't add a new Hero, there is no actual period of time where the conditions for YWR are met.
I'm really glad you used this wording, because now if I can prove that a time exists where no hero is in battle, then you agree with me that YWR's conditions are met ;)
So if you play a hypothetical GE on a lone hero and the GE's ability is "Draw a card for each hero in battle. Band a hero into battle.", do you draw 1 or 2? If 1, then there exists a period of time when YWR's conditions are met when Goliath blocks.
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1. The definition of block
2. A hero is presented simultaneously as the hero is withdrawn by Goliath.
3. Yes it all happens at the same time but at the time of triggering the draw and the band there was only one hero in battle.
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Then why does a Purple King get to play off of Throne when blocked by Uzzah?
If Uzzah blocks a purple King Uzzah's ability completes before Throne triggers. You still get to play after Uzzah dies because you were still blocked at one point and thus get a Throne trigger. Now you would probably say this sounds like I'm saying there exists a time between Uzzah entering battle and his ability completing which would contradict my stance on YWR. The reason it is different is because being blocked is an EC entering battle, which did happen, regardless of whether the EC is still there or not while YWR is your last Hero being removed, which did not ever happen because there was never a time that you were without a Hero in battle against Goliath.
I'm really glad you used this wording, because now if I can prove that a time exists where no hero is in battle, then you agree with me that YWR's conditions are met ;)
So if you play a hypothetical GE on a lone hero and the GE's ability is "Draw a card for each hero in battle. Band a hero into battle.", do you draw 1 or 2? If 1, then there exists a period of time when YWR's conditions are met when Goliath blocks.
I would agree with you if you could prove a time exists where no Hero is in battle but while in your example the answer is draw 1, I don't agree that proves your point on timing. When the enhancement is played, it's abilities begin resolving in order. If one of those abilities requires checking for information, it does so. This is not the same as a triggered ability on a completely different card being given time to check for information. If there was a card that said "If you play a good enhancement, you may add a Hero to battle" and you played the enhancement in the above example, you would still only draw 1 because that triggered ability would not have time to trigger until the enhancement was completely done.
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Look, here is the definition straight from page 10 of the REG 4.1.2, titled "Triggered Ability":
"While triggered abilities are triggered by a condition or situation happening, they may not insert themselves between other abilities to resolve. Instead, they are pending until all other abilities resolve, and then the triggered event may activate."
So clearly triggered abilities can be triggered in the middle of other abilities. And I think we can all agree that Goliath's Present ability happens AFTER his Withdraw ability. Therefore, YWR would be triggered, regardless of whether YWR's owner decides to present a hero or not.
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Look, here is the definition straight from page 10 of the REG 4.1.2, titled "Triggered Ability":
"While triggered abilities are triggered by a condition or situation happening, they may not insert themselves between other abilities to resolve. Instead, they are pending until all other abilities resolve, and then the triggered event may activate."
So clearly triggered abilities can be triggered in the middle of other abilities. And I think we can all agree that Goliath's Present ability happens AFTER his Withdraw ability. Therefore, YWR would be triggered, regardless of whether YWR's owner decides to present a hero or not.
This is absolutely correct. I'm really confused as to why there's debate on this.
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Pretty sure all abilities complete before triggered abilities can even check.
Then why does a Purple King get to play off of Throne when blocked by Uzzah?
Triggers are always checking, and when the trigger is tripped, it goes off - even mid-ability. At that point, the triggered ability is trying to activate, it just has to wait for prior abilities to complete.
Triggers are always checking yes, and since there is a time that your hero is being removed from battle, Goliath Triggers YWR. But triggers have to wait until all abilities complete to activate. After a hero is presented in battle opponent did not "removes your last character from battle" but rather removed him from battle. The tense is different. So, the trigger does not activate because it's conditions are not met.
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Triggers are always checking yes, and since there is a time that your hero is removed from battle, Goliath Triggers YWR. But triggers have to wait until all abilities complete to activate. After a hero is presented in battle opponent did not "removes your last character from battle" but rather removed him from battle. The tense is different. So, the trigger does not activate because it's conditions are not met.
Triggers don't care if they are met; they only care that they were met.
If an evil card said "Discard all heroes. Return those heroes to their owner's territories", would that trigger Ham?
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I'm really hoping we don't need to create a definition for "last" but YWR only triggers when the last Hero is removed. The way I see it, "your last Hero" updates from the Heroes that were withdrawn to the Heroes that were presented via Goliath's ability in which case "your last Hero(es)" have not been removed.
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"last hero" logic still fails because updating doesn't change what happened, if:
Triggers don't care if they are met; they only care that they were met.
I found this and nothing to support what I said about the conditions having to be met again
"While triggered abilities are triggered by a condition or situation happening, they may not
insert themselves between other abilities to resolve. Instead, they are pending until all other
abilities resolve, and then the triggered event may activate."
So, seems to me that after you present a new hero you could add another hero to battle BUT this is more of a loophole than anything; human reasoning will prevail (I bet); so sorry you cannot break YWR further. :angel:
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I may have misunderstood the position JM was taking, you can add a hero with YWR if you decline Goliath's present, but if you add a hero via Goliath then YWRs condition isn't satisfied when it attempts to resolve. For similar scenarios see Hidden Treasures
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I may have misunderstood the position JM was taking, you can add a hero with YWR if you decline Goliath's present, but if you add a hero via Goliath then YWRs condition isn't satisfied when it attempts to resolve. For similar scenarios see Hidden Treasures
Appreciate the clarification on this. Hidden Treasures was a great example.
So to make sure I understand: It seems there are two types of triggers - State-based and Ability-based (excuse the terminology and go with it for a second).
- State-based triggers such as "If your last hero is removed from battle", "If your lone green prophet begins a battle", etc. describe a state of the game. These can trigger mid-ability (such as YWR/Goliath, or attacking with a banding green prophet when Hidden Treasures is active), but they check the game state again once all pending abilities complete. If the game-state trigger is no longer met, the trigger won't activate.
- Action-based triggers happen when a certain game action is carried out, such as "If your hero is discarded" or "If opponent uses a draw ability" or "When your Purple king is blocked". These can trigger mid-ability, and as far as I can tell, they won't check again once all pending abilities complete. They only care that a certain action or ability "happened" - even if another ability restores the game state so that it's like the triggering ability never happened. (Such as an ability that discards a hero, then returns that hero to play.)
Let me know if I'm off-base with this reasoning.
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All of the lingo in the REG isn't totally optimal with triggers but I think an easy way to think about it is triggers activate when the conditions of the triggers are met, with the exception being in cases were other abilities are active, in which case they become pending abilities to be activated later on. When the trigger has priority the abilities activate if an only if the conditions of the trigger were met and are still being met as if the trigger conditions were activated in this moment for the first time.
That's the justification I have been told before and I don't think it's explicitly contradicted in that quote I found now that I think about it, it's just not thorough enough perhaps. "May activate" obviously has exceptions.
The Two State trigger is fine, if that helps you understand it JM. But it would be a confusing addition to the REG 5.0 because the distinction between action and state base triggers seems arbitrary; For example, "blocked" and "begin a battle" are arguable both state based.
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But it would be a confusing addition to the REG 5.0
How do you know that to be true...REG 5.0 might already be the most confusing thing ever...muahahahahaha :maul:
Just kidding...it's been cleaned up a lot, and it will be going live any day now. 8)
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All triggers are supposed to be action-based, referred to as events in REG 5.0.
Do you get SI between the withdraw and present? In general, since Goliath is CBN.
Edit:
I found a thread (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/quick-question-about-certain-cards-outburst-of-anger-death-of-firstborn/msg574438/#msg574438) where I said that you do get SI between the withdraw and present, and Guardian agreed with me - which I still think is correct, and should mean the withdraw triggers YWR so you could add a character with the present and another with YWR. That granting SI is what would differentiate withdraw/present from CTR and exchange, which shouldn't trigger YWR.
Since triggers happen on events, there's not really a way for it to still be true when you can actually use the triggered ability.
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I may have misunderstood the position JM was taking, you can add a hero with YWR if you decline Goliath's present, but if you add a hero via Goliath then YWRs condition isn't satisfied when it attempts to resolve. For similar scenarios see Hidden Treasures
Appreciate the clarification on this. Hidden Treasures was a great example.
So to make sure I understand: It seems there are two types of triggers - State-based and Ability-based (excuse the terminology and go with it for a second).
- State-based triggers such as "If your last hero is removed from battle", "If your lone green prophet begins a battle", etc. describe a state of the game. These can trigger mid-ability (such as YWR/Goliath, or attacking with a banding green prophet when Hidden Treasures is active), but they check the game state again once all pending abilities complete. If the game-state trigger is no longer met, the trigger won't activate.
- Action-based triggers happen when a certain game action is carried out, such as "If your hero is discarded" or "If opponent uses a draw ability" or "When your Purple king is blocked". These can trigger mid-ability, and as far as I can tell, they won't check again once all pending abilities complete. They only care that a certain action or ability "happened" - even if another ability restores the game state so that it's like the triggering ability never happened. (Such as an ability that discards a hero, then returns that hero to play.)
Let me know if I'm off-base with this reasoning.
I'm digging this reasoning, even if it isn't how it will be worded.
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All triggers are supposed to be action-based, referred to as events in REG 5.0.
Do you get SI between the withdraw and present? In general, since Goliath is CBN.
Edit:
I found a thread (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/quick-question-about-certain-cards-outburst-of-anger-death-of-firstborn/msg574438/#msg574438) where I said that you do get SI between the withdraw and present, and Guardian agreed with me - which I still think is correct, and should mean the withdraw triggers YWR so you could add a character with the present and another with YWR. That granting SI is what would differentiate withdraw/present from CTR and exchange, which shouldn't trigger YWR.
Since triggers happen on events, there's not really a way for it to still be true when you can actually use the triggered ability.
So how does this affect Hidden Treasures? Seems like every time you push a Green prophet into battle, even one that bands, it would trigger HT.
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Hidden Treasures' trigger is "begins a battle", not "enters battle" - "begins a battle" is not the first Hero that enters, but is determined later, per the ruling that Rachel exchanging for Joseph results in a lone green prophet beginning the battle. That both HT and the Demon Discard LS (from Angel Wars) use "lone hero" requires the definition to be something other than the first Hero that enters battle.
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Hidden Treasures' trigger is "begins a battle", not "enters battle" - "begins a battle" is not the first Hero that enters, but is determined later, per the ruling that Rachel exchanging for Joseph results in a lone green prophet beginning the battle. That both HT and the Demon Discard LS (from Angel Wars) use "lone hero" requires the definition to be something other than the first Hero that enters battle.
Why was it ruled that Joseph is considered to have begun a battle when in actuality Rachel is the one that began the battle in-question?
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All triggers are supposed to be action-based, referred to as events in REG 5.0.
Do you get SI between the withdraw and present? In general, since Goliath is CBN.
Edit:
I found a thread (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/quick-question-about-certain-cards-outburst-of-anger-death-of-firstborn/msg574438/#msg574438) where I said that you do get SI between the withdraw and present, and Guardian agreed with me - which I still think is correct, and should mean the withdraw triggers YWR so you could add a character with the present and another with YWR. That granting SI is what would differentiate withdraw/present from CTR and exchange, which shouldn't trigger YWR.
Since triggers happen on events, there's not really a way for it to still be true when you can actually use the triggered ability.
How is special initiative relevant here? It really comes down to how triggers function as YWR doesn't have any abilities that operate in SI.
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Hidden Treasures' trigger is "begins a battle", not "enters battle" - "begins a battle" is not the first Hero that enters, but is determined later, per the ruling that Rachel exchanging for Joseph results in a lone green prophet beginning the battle. That both HT and the Demon Discard LS (from Angel Wars) use "lone hero" requires the definition to be something other than the first Hero that enters battle.
Why was it ruled that Joseph is considered to have begun a battle when in actuality Rachel is the one that began the battle in-question?
There's 2 possible definitions for "begins a battle":
1. The first character that enters battle.
2. The characters in battle after abilities have completed.
We've gone with 2, since otherwise all battles are begun by lone heroes.
All triggers are supposed to be action-based, referred to as events in REG 5.0.
Do you get SI between the withdraw and present? In general, since Goliath is CBN.
Edit:
I found a thread (http://www.cactusforums.com/ruling-questions/quick-question-about-certain-cards-outburst-of-anger-death-of-firstborn/msg574438/#msg574438) where I said that you do get SI between the withdraw and present, and Guardian agreed with me - which I still think is correct, and should mean the withdraw triggers YWR so you could add a character with the present and another with YWR. That granting SI is what would differentiate withdraw/present from CTR and exchange, which shouldn't trigger YWR.
Since triggers happen on events, there's not really a way for it to still be true when you can actually use the triggered ability.
How is special initiative relevant here? It really comes down to how triggers function as YWR doesn't have any abilities that operate in SI.
Special initiative is defined as something you get when your last hero is removed from battle. You technically get it when Goliath forces your characters to withdraw, but can't do anything because he's CBN. That seems like an already defined line between when your last hero is removed and when it's not.
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There's 2 possible definitions for "begins a battle":
1. The first character that enters battle.
2. The characters in battle after abilities have completed.
We've gone with 2, since otherwise all battles are begun by lone heroes.
Does this change Foreign Wives vs Ignore?
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Special initiative is defined as something you get when your last hero is removed from battle. You technically get it when Goliath forces your characters to withdraw, but can't do anything because he's CBN. That seems like an already defined line between when your last hero is removed and when it's not.
Special initiative is something you get sure, but all you get to do is play a card removing your last hero from battle. The pause is for that. Triggers should still have to wait until abilities finish to activate, because triggers are pending until abilities have completed.
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There's 2 possible definitions for "begins a battle":
1. The first character that enters battle.
2. The characters in battle after abilities have completed.
We've gone with 2, since otherwise all battles are begun by lone heroes.
Does this change Foreign Wives vs Ignore?
No - once a character enters battle, it becomes a valid target for the ignore.
Special initiative is defined as something you get when your last hero is removed from battle. You technically get it when Goliath forces your characters to withdraw, but can't do anything because he's CBN. That seems like an already defined line between when your last hero is removed and when it's not.
Special initiative is something you get sure, but all you get to do is play a card removing your last hero from battle. The pause is for that. Triggers should still have to wait until abilities finish to activate, because triggers are pending until abilities have completed.
I was trying to use special initiative (or the failure to stop the ability that caused it) as the event that triggers "last hero is removed from battle", not have YWR happen during special initiative. Getting SI between a withdraw and the present also counters Kevin's argument that there's never a time you don't have a hero in battle against Goliath.
We have 3 similar but distinct ways that can remove the last character from battle and immediately replace it:
1. Choose Opponent
2. Exchange
3. Withdraw/Present
Withdraw/present is different from the other two because it grants special initiative, because withdraw and present are two separate actions. Exchange and choose are one action each. My take is that choose and exchange would not trigger YWR, but withdraw/present does. And once YWR is triggered, it doesn't matter if a hero gets added before it can activate.
Actually defining "removed from battle" would go a long way to helping with this discussion - but that didn't happen in REG 5.0.
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I agree that choose and exchange would not, and while withdraw does trigger YWR I don't agree that defining what state the battle begins at had anything to do with the initial ruling when Hidden treasure came out. It involved reasoning through how triggers functioned. When two heroes banded, Hidden treasure was triggered but could not activate because the conditions of the trigger were changed in between the initial trigger and activation. On a larger scale, it seems half-helpful to change a definition for more clarity and let understanding of triggers fizzle through a literal reading of the REG. Understanding which, interestingly enough two Elders have. There is precedence for editing rules to compensate for lack of clarity that has resulted in unintentional consequences... I'd say making YWR better is definitely a consequence... Like changing the definition of temple artifacts.
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I have 2 issues with that understanding:
1) If the first hero entering battle is the trigger for "begins a battle", then Rachel doesn't trigger HT before exchanging for Joseph, and Joseph shouldn't trigger HT as he wasn't the first character to enter battle.
2) Uzzah removing himself from battle should cause the "if blocked" triggers to fizzle.
Having that understanding only apply to some triggers but not all, as seems to be the case, seems to put us in a position where we have to use JM's 2 types of triggers, which is confusing because many could be either, as you pointed out earlier. I don't have a problem with either of his types - I just think we should have one or the other, not both.
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Having that understanding only apply to some triggers but not all, as seems to be the case, seems to put us in a position where we have to use JM's 2 types of triggers, which is confusing because many could be either, as you pointed out earlier. I don't have a problem with either of his types - I just think we should have one or the other, not both.
I don't think having two "types" of triggers is a problem. I think all confusion can be solved by saying "When a trigger is met, it activates and doesn't need (or doesn't try) to be reactivated."
In other words, for an "If X, then Y" ability, if X is met, then Y happens regardless of pending abilities and whether or not X is true once Y gets the chance to activate. Y only cares that X actually happened at some point.
And it shouldn't matter whether X is action-based ("When your NT hero is discarded by an opponents' special ability") or state-based ("At the beginning of each upkeep, if you have 7 Angels in play") - if the trigger is met, the resulting ability happens after all current abilities are completed.
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I have 2 issues with that understanding:
1) If the first hero entering battle is the trigger for "begins a battle", then Rachel doesn't trigger HT before exchanging for Joseph, and Joseph shouldn't trigger HT as he wasn't the first character to enter battle.
2) Uzzah removing himself from battle should cause the "if blocked" triggers to fizzle.
Well 1 is solved by the definition of begins a battle we have now. Joseph begins the battle and triggers HT. Rachel does not. As for 2, "if blocked" and "begins a battle" are not analogous terms. "If blocked" and "Rescue attempt" are... so when uzzah blocks throne will be triggered and can be activated after uzzah was removed from battle, because your purple king was "blocked", but YWR's activation requires your opponent to be removing your last hero when it tries to activate---> "if opponent removes".