Author Topic: Wrath of Satan + AotL (Read 5131 times)

RTSmaniac · « **on:** October 25, 2009, 01:14:06 AM »

Can i play wrath of satan and then angel of the lord my evil charater in battle before my opponent plays an enhancement?

Master KChief · « **Reply #1 on:** October 25, 2009, 02:06:50 AM »

adamfincher · « **Reply #2 on:** October 25, 2009, 08:24:34 AM »

wow that's mean.. i never thought of that...
for that matter you could also use grapes...

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #3 on:** October 25, 2009, 09:28:03 AM »

Your opponent would still have initative, however, to play an interrupt. Your opponent was still "losing by removal" at the time you played WoS, so they can play a negate. Playing AotL does not change that outcome.

If you AotL your own EC, then any interrupt would save their heroes, since there would be no EC for Wrath to reactivate on.

Gabe · « **Reply #4 on:** October 25, 2009, 10:50:44 AM »

Once you play Wrath of Stan you cannot play a Dominant until your opponent declines to play an interrupt/negate. The ability of Wrath must complete before a Dominant can be used and Wrath doesn't complete until your opponent declines to interrupt/negate it (assuming it is causing them to lose the battle).

Fallen Warrior + Bringing Fear + Wrath makes it pretty hard to interrupt/negate.

New Raven BR · « **Reply #5 on:** October 25, 2009, 02:13:13 PM »

but the real question is: why would ya want to? why not save it for your next ra?

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #6 on:** October 26, 2009, 12:07:18 AM »

can i play hunger and then AotL before passing initiative?

Alex_Olijar · « **Reply #7 on:** October 26, 2009, 12:10:21 AM »

I don't see why not, your not giving him initiative by SA.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #8 on:** October 26, 2009, 12:42:09 PM »

but he still gets a lost soul correct?

Professoralstad · « **Reply #9 on:** October 26, 2009, 01:52:36 PM »

Assuming he has/continues to have access to one, yes.

SirNobody · « **Reply #10 on:** October 28, 2009, 11:40:19 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: BrianGabe on October 25, 2009, 10:50:44 AM

Once you play Wrath of Stan you cannot play a Dominant until your opponent declines to play an interrupt/negate. The ability of Wrath must complete before a Dominant can be used and Wrath doesn't complete until your opponent declines to interrupt/negate it (assuming it is causing them to lose the battle).

I disagree. Wrath of Satan completes immediately. Your opponent's decision to negate it or interrupt it happens after Wrath of Satan has completed. A player can play Wrath of Satan and then immediately play Angel of the Lord.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #11 on:** October 28, 2009, 11:48:32 AM »

I guess the question is: Is Wrath not complete until the heroes are physically discarded, or does negate happen after the ability has completed but the effects not "activated" due to special init?

Quote

Negate

Negate stops and prevents a targeted special ability or card. The negate ability is played in the Field of Battle. It can undo another card already played unless the card explicitly states it cannot be negated.

Seems cheap though.

I could see both sides

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #12 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:17:47 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 28, 2009, 11:40:19 AM

A player can play Wrath of Satan and then immediately play Angel of the Lord.

...... and then I play a negate and win the Lost Soul. gg

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #13 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:33:00 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on October 28, 2009, 11:48:32 AM

Seems cheap though. I could see both sides

I also can see both sides. However, I would lean toward allowing the negate. "Cheapness" goes against "fun and fellowship" which Redemption is based on.

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #14 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:35:19 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on October 28, 2009, 04:17:47 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on October 28, 2009, 11:40:19 AM
A player can play Wrath of Satan and then immediately play Angel of the Lord.

...... and then I play a negate and win the Lost Soul. gg

When the EC dies, the enhancement goes too. You wouldn't be able to play a negate.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #15 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:40:16 PM »

Quote from: Cameron the Conqueror on October 28, 2009, 04:35:19 PM

When the EC dies, the enhancement goes too. You wouldn't be able to play a negate.

I disagree, per your previous quote and the following:

Instant Abilities > Interrupt or Negate Last > Special Conditions

• Placing a card in the discard pile removes it from play, but does not remove the ability to negate it by (1) interrupting the battle or (2) interrupting the last enhancement played in battle. However, a "negate last enhancement" negates the last enhancement regardless of its current state (in play, discard pile, converted to a character, etc.).

3-Liner And Bags Of Chips · « **Reply #16 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:45:12 PM »

Sweet so this solves the problem imo. And this same logic could be used for uzzah's sa and angel's sword too.

TechnoEthicist · « **Reply #17 on:** October 28, 2009, 04:53:22 PM »

Uzzah is a different animal altogether because of initiative control...

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #18 on:** October 28, 2009, 05:09:58 PM »

Quote from: TechnoEthicist on October 28, 2009, 04:53:22 PM

Uzzah is a different animal altogether because of initiative control...

Uzzah is a character, not an enhancement. When he kills himself, you do not get initiative because you are not being harmed. In the main example, Wrath is killing the rescuing hero. In Uzzah's case, the rescuer technically wins the battle.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** October 28, 2009, 08:39:46 PM »

Who wins the battle, though? I block with black and play Wrath of Satan, then immediately throw down AotL and kill my EC. You don't have a negate so Wrath stays completed. Who is the winner?

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #20 on:** October 28, 2009, 09:19:44 PM »

so you can play a negate or not? Fun and fellowship are intended for the game. I am inclined to be more technical when it comes to ruling questions however.

SirNobody · « **Reply #21 on:** October 28, 2009, 11:02:31 PM »

Hey,

The defender can play Angel of the Lord immediately after playing Wrath of Satan.

The attacker still gets initiative and can negate Wrath of Satan even though the Evil Character is gone.

If the attacker does not negate Wrath of Satan the battle would end in mutual destruction by mutual removal which is a win for the defender.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #22 on:** November 09, 2009, 07:51:10 PM »

what if Darius Decree is active?

browarod · « **Reply #23 on:** November 09, 2009, 07:54:14 PM »

I assume that would create an unavoidable "If the attacker does not negate Wrath of Satan the battle would end in mutual destruction by mutual removal which is a win for the defender." situation.

Isildur · « **Reply #24 on:** November 09, 2009, 08:07:51 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on October 28, 2009, 11:02:31 PM

Hey,

The defender can play Angel of the Lord immediately after playing Wrath of Satan.

The attacker still gets initiative and can negate Wrath of Satan even though the Evil Character is gone.

If the attacker does not negate Wrath of Satan the battle would end in mutual destruction by mutual removal which is a win for the defender.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

If you go by this deffinition that tim has said then if Darius's Decree is up when Wrath and AOTL are played it becomes CBN.

Master KChief · « **Reply #25 on:** November 09, 2009, 08:33:40 PM »

nice find! z's sin just got a whole lot stronger!

Cameron the Conqueror · « **Reply #26 on:** November 09, 2009, 08:53:09 PM »

I don't think so. Z's sin does not discard the evil character before the rescuer gets the chance the negate. The AotL is what makes this work.

However, it would work will all the cards which say "discard a hero in battle".

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #27 on:** November 09, 2009, 09:36:58 PM »

Quote

The AotL is what makes this work.

and dont forget about grapes

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:44:01 AM »

this is insane if it works my deck just became insane

ChristianSoldier · « **Reply #29 on:** November 12, 2009, 06:08:36 PM »

I didn't think you could insert a dominant when an instantaneous ability is being resolved, and interrupting is the only way to get around that, but I could be wrong on my exact interrupt rules

lightningninja · « **Reply #30 on:** November 12, 2009, 09:32:13 PM »

Wrath of Satan "completes." you can now play a dominant, and you get first since you can respond to your action. Is this right?

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #31 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:05:12 PM »

I've given this some thought, and this is how I see it:

a. All abilities must complete before another card can be played.

b. An opponent has the opportunity to play an interrupt card (if possible) if they are losing in battle.

c. Dominants may only be played after all instant abilities are completed.

Therefore, if you play Wrath immediately followed by Angel of the Lord on your own Evil Character, your opponent gets the chance to play an interrupt PRIOR to the AotL because the ability of Wrath isn't truly completed until after the opponent has his interrupt opportunity. If your opponent plays an interrupt, AotL's effect must wait to happen until Wrath's ability is completed, which, in tihs case, is after the interrupt ends.

So, you throw down Wrath and AotL. I play Five Smooth Stones and negate Wrath. Now Wrath's ability is completed (it is negated in this case, but the card is still completed), and so your AotL carries out its ability, discarding the Evil Character.

In short, no, playing AotL immediately after Wrath does NOT make Wrath unnegatable.

Kevin Shride

Gabe · « **Reply #32 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:16:54 PM »

Thanks, Kevin. I couldn't have said it better myself.

christiangamer25 · « **Reply #33 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:28:28 PM »

but what about with darius decree

SirNobody · « **Reply #34 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:30:44 PM »

Hey,

I disagree with Kevin because....

Quote from: Kevin Shride on November 12, 2009, 11:05:12 PM

...because the ability of Wrath isn't truly completed until after the opponent has his interrupt opportunity.

That doesn't jive with the age old Foolish Advice vs Council of Abigail ruling.

Even disregarding the Foolish Advice precedent, you can't play cards while an instant ability is being carried out. And if Wrath isn't completed then I can't play Angel of the Lord, but you can't play a negate either (it's not just dominants that can't be played while an instant ability is being carried out).

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Gabe · « **Reply #35 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:35:24 PM »

What do Foolish Advice and Council of Abigale have to do with this? Foolish Advice isn't causing anyone to lose the battle so it doesn't require that you give the opponent an opportunity to interrupt/negate.

Kevin Shride · « **Reply #36 on:** November 12, 2009, 11:55:13 PM »

Quote

but what about with darius decree

Let's deal with this first. DD makes no difference, because the EC is still in play, because AotL's ability must wait for the interrupt.

Quote

That doesn't jive with the age old Foolish Advice vs Council of Abigail ruling.

I believe the ruling in question that Tim's referring to is that CoA does not negate FA. That's because FA is preventing CoA. You're right, Tim, but if CoA could not be prevented, then it would, in fact, negate FA. Just because a particular interrupt card is prevented does not mean there is no opportunity for one.

Quote

Even disregarding the Foolish Advice precedent, you can't play cards while an instant ability is being carried out. And if Wrath isn't completed then I can't play Angel of the Lord, but you can't play a negate either (it's not just dominants that can't be played while an instant ability is being carried out).

Ah, but, Tim, you're forgetting the one exception, which is in the rulebook, and it clearly states that the only card that can be played here is an interrupt. Until that opportunity is played out, nothing else can be played. Not even a dominant.

Kevin Shride

SirNobody · « **Reply #37 on:** November 13, 2009, 12:18:34 AM »

Hey,

Quote from: BrianGabe on November 12, 2009, 11:35:24 PM

What do Foolish Advice and Council of Abigale have to do with this?

Foolish Advice followed by Council of Abigail was a very, very, very long discussion (500+ posts) back in 2000-2002 era that set the groundwork for how interrupts and negates would be played. The conclusion was that abilities complete instantly, which means that a card must complete before you are given the opportunity to negate it.

Quote from: Kevin Shride on November 12, 2009, 11:55:13 PM

Quote
Even disregarding the Foolish Advice precedent, you can't play cards while an instant ability is being carried out. And if Wrath isn't completed then I can't play Angel of the Lord, but you can't play a negate either (it's not just dominants that can't be played while an instant ability is being carried out).
Ah, but, Tim, you're forgetting the one exception, which is in the rulebook, and it clearly states that the only card that can be played here is an interrupt. Until that opportunity is played out, nothing else can be played. Not even a dominant.

Where in the rulebook does it say that bolded part? If it is in the rulebook it would be news to me.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

The Schaef · « **Reply #38 on:** November 13, 2009, 11:40:17 AM »

Wrath removes all Heroes in battle. This is a winning scenario for the defender, and so initiative is transferred to the rescuing player.

Angel of the Lord has no effect on this, regardless of who plays the card. There are still no Heroes in battle because of Wrath's special ability. Initiative remains with the rescuer.

The rescuer can negate Wrath to return his Heroes to battle. The Evil Character having already been discarded by Angel of the Lord, the defender is now losing the battle, and has initiative if he wants to play Unknown Nation or something.

RTSmaniac · « **Reply #39 on:** November 17, 2009, 12:32:23 PM »

so what say ye about darius decree active and i play hunger on defence killing all opponents heros? can i play AotL to stop opponent from negating?

lightningninja · « **Reply #40 on:** November 17, 2009, 03:35:49 PM »

Yes because hunger doesn't instantly kill, the heroes die after the battle phase. So, they are losing by the numbers and you can play aotl. But they don't die till after battle so they'd get the ls.

News:

Author Topic: Wrath of Satan + AotL (Read 5131 times)

browarod

browarod

The Schaef