Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Nameless on April 12, 2012, 08:45:57 AM
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You have Asherah Pole up, and you have horses on Goliath, and your opponent has WoP. Your opponent goes out and you block with Goliath. You opponent gets kicked, and cannot come back into battle. You would get to use horses and play Wrath of Satan. Would your opponent be able to negate Wrath?
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I don't think it would work at all, because Goliath would negate horses, and is not blocking a O.T. hero for Asherah Pole to make it CBN, since you kicked all of them out of battle first.
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Unfortunately, I agree with Drrek here. All the negates activate before the withdraw/add-to-battle ability (and before Horses), and when your opponent can't block again, you're no longer blocking an OT hero, so Asherah Pole wouldn't work.
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...Goliath would negate horses....
This alone would make this plan impossible.
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...Goliath would negate horses....
This alone would make this plan impossible.
Asherah Pole makes enhancements CBN when played against an OT hero. The question he's asking is whether Goliath would get the chance to use Horses if there's no OT hero in battle, but one had blocked before.
Edit: Rescued before, rather.
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Oh, sorry. I still agree with what drrek said.
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I agree, If no OT Hero is in battle, Horses is negated. Pole is a continuous effect.
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I dunno, they said Iron pan will protect from Bel's Banquet even if it is discarding the only Bab in play. This would say that all abilities would have to complete before Pole can recheck since it's a continuous, not a dynamic, effect. When Goliath and horses went in, Pole was protecting horses, when Goliath finishes, Horses interrupts the battle before Pole can recheck and so it would still draw, yes?
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1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.
4. Then, complete banding abilities.
5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.
This is actually a good question Praeceps, especially since Horses activates before a new hero can even be brought in. It's possible that A Pole doesn't check until after Horses activates and does its business, however, I'm not entirely sure.
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I dunno, they said Iron pan will protect from Bel's Banquet even if it is discarding the only Bab in play.
That's actually still under discussion by the Elders, on whether abilities can "check" or activate during other abilities.
This is actually a good question Praeceps, especially since Horses activates before a new hero can even be brought in. It's possible that A Pole doesn't check until after Horses activates and does its business, however, I'm not entirely sure.
Bolded being the key part as related to the ruling question out there now. Does Asherah's Pole "check" to see if an OT hero is blocked in order to make horses CBN when used by Goliath during and in-between abilities activating on Goliath and Horses?
I think this one will have to be ruled by the Elders as part of the current debate they are having.
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Also, just a note, Iron pan doesn't protect it negates.
Now I'm not sure, I thought it was spontaneous, the reason why Iron Pan is excluded from this is because it's mid-effect. My opinion is that Goliath's effect should activate and complete, then AP would check again, then Horses goes off.
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My opinion is that Goliath's effect should activate and complete, then AP would check again, then Horses goes off.
Goliath actually has not completed, as Horses goes off in the middle (Weapons by game rule go before abilities that choose/replace the rescuer). Therefore, we are still mid-Goliath, who has negated Horses, when Asherah's Pole would check. And since you cannot retroactively gain CBN, if it does not activate during Goliath's ability, then it does not make Horses CBN.
So, in short, Asherah's Pole would have to already be in effect or happen during Goliath's ability.
Is Asherah's Pole really just in effect the instant Goliath hits battle? Or does it have to wait for his ability? That's the question.
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I see. I didn't know that part. I'd say then that after Goliath's effect completes it would recheck then.
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My opinion is that Goliath's effect should activate and complete, then AP would check again, then Horses goes off.
Goliath actually has not completed, as Horses goes off in the middle (Weapons by game rule go before abilities that choose/replace the rescuer). Therefore, we are still mid-Goliath, who has negated Horses, when Asherah's Pole would check. And since you cannot retroactively gain CBN, if it does not activate during Goliath's ability, then it does not make Horses CBN.
So, in short, Asherah's Pole would have to already be in effect or happen during Goliath's ability.
Is Asherah's Pole really just in effect the instant Goliath hits battle? Or does it have to wait for his ability? That's the question.
Asherah's Pole would activate once the OT hero was put into battle, before Goliath is chosen as a blocker. so before Goliath is even put into battle, Horses is given CBN status. The question is whether or not Pole checks again before Pole Interrupts.
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You can't retroactively gain CBN status, nor can you retroactively lose it. As such, if Horses gains CBN upon entering battle due to Asherah Pole, it would stay CBN even if the condition for Pole stops being met sometime during the battle. So the question is whether or not Goliath is considered "blocking" before or after his ability resolves. I can't find it in the REG atm, but I vaguely remember there being a rule that characters aren't officially in battle until their special ability resolves (or at least that the "block" is the EC's ability finishing).
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Goliath actually has not completed, as Horses goes off in the middle (Weapons by game rule go before abilities that choose/replace the rescuer). Therefore, we are still mid-Goliath, who has negated Horses, when Asherah's Pole would check. And since you cannot retroactively gain CBN, if it does not activate during Goliath's ability, then it does not make Horses CBN.
Goliath did not "negate" horses because they had not happened yet. Goliath is preventing them when they activate, and it is then that horses are either CBN (and work) or not CBN (and don't work).
But that is a moot point, because if we walk through the steps, I don't think Asherah Pole's condition is met to make the enhancement CBN.
1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.
4. Then, complete banding abilities.
5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.
So Goliath plays as follows:
1. All heroes are returned.
2. All draw/play/banding abilities are negated.
3. All weapons activate. At this point, no heroes are in battle and Asherah Pole's "blocking" condition is not met, so Philly Horses are not CBN, and therefore are prevented.
4. Opponent presents a new hero.
This is makes sense to me.
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I don't think so, my understanding that cards like Pole (or Iron Pan, Given over to Egypt and others) check after effects complete. (aka Goliath)
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Goliath actually has not completed, as Horses goes off in the middle (Weapons by game rule go before abilities that choose/replace the rescuer). Therefore, we are still mid-Goliath, who has negated Horses, when Asherah's Pole would check. And since you cannot retroactively gain CBN, if it does not activate during Goliath's ability, then it does not make Horses CBN.
Goliath did not "negate" horses because they had not happened yet. Goliath is preventing them when they activate, and it is then that horses are either CBN (and work) or not CBN (and don't work).
But that is a moot point, because if we walk through the steps, I don't think Asherah Pole's condition is met to make the enhancement CBN.
1. First, complete all printed special abilities in the order written on the card EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
2. Then complete all gained abilities (gained in set-aside or on previous turn, etc.), EXCEPT those that add a character to the battle.
3. Then, complete all weapon abilities.
4. Then, complete banding abilities.
5. Last, complete choose blocker abilities.
So Goliath plays as follows:
1. All heroes are returned.
2. All draw/play/banding abilities are negated.
3. All weapons activate. At this point, no heroes are in battle and Asherah Pole's "blocking" condition is not met, so Philly Horses are not CBN, and therefore are prevented.
4. Opponent presents a new hero.
This is makes sense to me.
The problem is that Pole would check when Goliath is put in. At that point there is an OT hero being blocked. Goliath goes through his rigamarole and you get to step three before Pole can check a second time because Artifacts can't recheck in the middle of a cards ability unless it's dynamic, which Pole is not. So when you get to step three, Pole is still making Horses CBN.
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A definite precedent ruling is that if a King attacks with TToD up and Uzzah blocks, becoming An Hero, the King does not get to play or draw because the check does not happen until all other abilities are completed. Whether the dynamic nature of checks is changed with the elder discussion remains to be seen, but that's the way it works now.