Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: emonier on June 09, 2017, 10:59:13 AM
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Is the new RoJ card: "The Woman with Child" considered a female NT hero?
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I don't see any reason why she wouldn't be
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What else would it be? o_O
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Yes. She is also considered an angel ;-) Something's not right here.
REG
The following Redemption® cards are considered Revelation Angels:
Angelic Warrior (RJ), Angel of Might (Ki), Angel of Revelation (E), Angel of Revelation (RJ), Angel of the Waters (Ki), Angel from the Altar (RJ), Angel from the Sun (RJ), Angels of Wrath (RJ), Antipas (RJ), Arianna (AW), Bride of Christ (RJ), Every Tribe (RJ), Faithful Witness (RJ), Great Multitude (RJ), Guiding Angel (E), John (H), John (Pr), John, the Revelator (RJ), Justice Seekers (RJ), Justin Martyr (RJ), Michael (AW), Michael (Ki), Michael (Wa), One of Seven (RJ), Paladin the Fighter (AW), Priests of Christ (P), Priests of Christ (RJ), Servant Angel (E), Servant Angel (RJ), Seven Trumpet Sounders (RJ), Swifts (AW), The Angel of Might (RJ), The Angelic Army (RJ), The Binding Angel (RJ), The Four Living Creatures (RJ), The Guiding Angel (RJ), The Strong Angel (Ki), The Strong Angel (RJ), The Strong Angel (Wa), The Twenty-Four Elders (RJ), The Two Witnesses (RJ) and The Woman with Child (RJ)
REG
Character’s Role and Gender
Each character has a role and most have a gender. Role and gender help identify the card’s advantage or disadvantage to special abilities on other cards. Determine the role and gender by looking at the card’s Scripture, card title or illustration. Character roles are a type of identifier. In Redemption®, most characters, including demons and beasts, have a gender. Most demons are considered male by default, but some demons may be identified as female, or in some cases are genderless. Some other characters are considered genderless as well, see Gender.
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so that makes women with child the first non-silver angel? that really should have been an identifier...I never would have guessed
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No there's a few more Justin Martyr, the 24 elders, the two witnesses, John, John, the Revelator, Justice Seeker. But I'm pretty sure this is a mistake. I pulled it straight from the REG though.
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Shh... don't tell the elders! We need to make an insane combo deck with this error!
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The elders are already listening!
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The problem with this whole thing is that the "Woman" in Revelation 12 was never a real (human) woman or an angel. She is a symbolic representation of the nation/kingdom of Israel - which gave birth to the child (Jesus).
This woman in Revelation 12 (from a biblical standpoint) is NEITHER a HUMAN nor an ANGEL. She is a symbol.
So, that is why I asked if we are going to treat her (in Redemption) as a female NT hero, because this would matter on whether or not she can be coupled with cards like SUSANNA.
What do y'all think?
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The Woman with Child is a representation of Mary the mother of Jesus. Therefore she is a female NT Hero. She is not an angel -- somehow that REG list got messed up, I think it's supposed to be the list of Revelation Heroes, not angels.
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red dragon is also symbolic but is treated as a demon. I would guess that symbolic characters are only going to be characters that the Bible gives no clear depiction on what they are. woman with child is a woman, red dragon is a demon, but war, famine, death are...well lets just call them symbolic :)
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That's a typo in the Revelation Hero entry. The list is right, "Revelation Angels" just didn't get properly edited from the copy/paste. The first occurrences (before the list of cards that refer to Revelation Heroes) were caught, but the one preceding the list of qualifying characters was missed.
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Guardian,
I am fine with using the card as female, NT hero (for the sake of the game). The card will go great in my NT women's deck (actually it's your deck! LOL!)
However, I do believe that the Woman of Rev. 12 is a symbol for the whole nation of Israel (not just Mary). *Note: The Virgin Mary was Jewish, so she is part of the Nation of Israel, so your interpretation is correct in that sense.
There are many good arguments for the idea that the Woman represents the whole of Israel (e.g. The twelve stars in Rev. 12:1 refer to the twelve tribes of Israel). See the link below for a more thorough treatment (I trust this website).
https://www.gotquestions.org/Revelation-chapter-12.html
God bless...
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Well, what would that change on the card? It's depiction is still of a woman giving birth to Jesus, or at least, a representation of Him. So, her identifier should be changed to "Female, symbolic," in your opinion?
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I agree that WwC can be interpreted to be Mary or the nation of Isreal. I wasn't aware of the later interpretation until half way through testing. We aren't necessarily trying to push one view over the other, but the card designed to be WwC in this case is a representation of Mary, thus is considered the same unique character.
The inclusion on the list of Revelation angels is an oversight on my part. She is only human, not angelic for game play purposes.
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Ok,
Fair enough (not trying to argue, I love this stuff!)
*Note: Some commentators also interpret the Woman of Rev. 12 to be the "Church."
So, there are at least 3 interpretations (Mary; Israel; Church). My view is that it encompasses both Israel and the Church, because Israel gave rise to the Church.
Oh, and one more thing...
I noticed that the "identifier" on the card refers to the WwC as a "Prophet."
How can she be a prophet?
Thanks,
Eric
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Because Mary was a prophet.
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The inclusion on the list of Revelation angels is an oversight on my part. She is only human, not angelic for game play purposes.
The oversight isn't in the list, or in the Revelation Angel entry. It's in the Revelation Hero entry, before the list. See the bold strikethrough and correction. The 4 quoted lists look right - or at least it doesn't look like there's anything that's not supposed to be there.
Revelation Angel
Several Redemption® cards refer to Revelation angels. The following Redemption® cards refer to Revelation angels:
●Angelic Warrior (RJ), Angel from the Altar (RJ), Angel of Revelation (RJ), Michael, the Archangel (RJ), One of Seven (RJ), Patmos (RJ), Servant Angel (RJ), The Angel of Might (RJ), The Binding Angel (RJ), The Golden Altar (RJ), and The Seven Trumpets (RJ)
The following Redemption® cards are considered Revelation Angels:
●Angelic Warrior (RJ), Angel of Might (Ki), Angel of Revelation (E), Angel of Revelation (RJ), Angel of the Waters (Ki), Angel from the Altar (RJ), Angel from the Sun (RJ), Angels of Wrath (RJ), Arianna (AW), Great Multitude (RJ), Guiding Angel (E), Michael (AW), Michael (Ki), Michael (Wa), One of Seven (RJ), Paladin the Fighter (AW), Servant Angel (E), Servant Angel (RJ), Seven Trumpet Sounders (RJ), Swifts (AW), The Angel of Might (RJ), The Angelic Army (RJ), The Binding Angel (RJ), The Four Living Creatures (RJ), The Guiding Angel (RJ), The Strong Angel (Ki), The Strong Angel (RJ) and The Strong Angel (Wa)
Revelation Hero
Several Redemption® cards refer to Revelation Heroes. The following Redemption® cards refer to Revelation Heroes:
●Ark of the Covenant (RJ), The Angelic Army (RJ), The Book of Life (RJ), Day of Fury (RJ), Great Multitude (RJ), Heavenly Temple (RJ) and Priests of Christ (RJ)
The following Redemption® cards are considered Revelation Angels Revelation Heroes:
●Angelic Warrior (RJ), Angel of Might (Ki), Angel of Revelation (E), Angel of Revelation (RJ), Angel of the Waters (Ki), Angel from the Altar (RJ), Angel from the Sun (RJ), Angels of Wrath (RJ), Antipas (RJ), Arianna (AW), Bride of Christ (RJ), Every Tribe (RJ), Faithful Witness (RJ), Great Multitude (RJ), Guiding Angel (E), John (H), John (Pr), John, the Revelator (RJ), Justice Seekers (RJ), Justin Martyr (RJ), Michael (AW), Michael (Ki), Michael (Wa), One of Seven (RJ), Paladin the Fighter (AW), Priests of Christ (P), Priests of Christ (RJ), Servant Angel (E), Servant Angel (RJ), Seven Trumpet Sounders (RJ), Swifts (AW), The Angel of Might (RJ), The Angelic Army (RJ), The Binding Angel (RJ), The Four Living Creatures (RJ), The Guiding Angel (RJ), The Strong Angel (Ki), The Strong Angel (RJ), The Strong Angel (Wa), The Twenty-Four Elders (RJ), The Two Witnesses (RJ) and The Woman with Child (RJ)
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Thank you, Mr. Aggie!
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Yes, I think she should have the identifier: "symbolic" - that would make sense.
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At this time WwC is not considered Symbolic.
It could be revisited down the road but not in the midst of the major tournament season. We do appreciate and value player input such as this so please don't hesitate to bring up such topics-- just understand that we try to make decisions for changing things like that in the middle of the tournament season only if deemed necessary for game balance.
Personally I'm hoping we get to remove the errata from the Unlimited Kindness error card and make Kindness a Symbolic 1/1 Gold Hero. 8)
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At this time WwC is not considered Symbolic.
It could be revisited down the road but not in the midst of the major tournament season. We do appreciate and value player input such as this so please don't hesitate to bring up such topics-- just understand that we try to make decisions for changing things like that in the middle of the tournament season only if deemed necessary for game balance.
Personally I'm hoping we get to remove the errata from the Unlimited Kindness error card and make Kindness a Symbolic 1/1 Gold Hero. 8)
You talking of making a whole new card?
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Nope I'm talking about this card:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/3ecdb9_b046012cb432489fbde84a4661339617.png/v1/fill/w_302,h_449,al_c,lg_1/3ecdb9_b046012cb432489fbde84a4661339617.png)
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Nope I'm talking about this card:
(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/3ecdb9_b046012cb432489fbde84a4661339617.png/v1/fill/w_302,h_449,al_c,lg_1/3ecdb9_b046012cb432489fbde84a4661339617.png)
Oh I thought you were referring to the newer version. :) But yes that one could use some refining. The other one says it ignores "red" brigade...what's up with that????
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Yes, I think she should have the identifier: "symbolic" - that would make sense.
I know it won't be changed this tourney season for good reason but I too second that she should be symbolic.
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Oh I thought you were referring to the newer version. :) But yes that one could use some refining. The other one says it ignores "red" brigade...what's up with that????
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In the original limited set, there was no crimson or pale green. The evil colors were red and green. When they made unlimited, The colors were tweaked to make the easier to identify.
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Dear Elders:
Thank you for making such a rich, wonderful game such as Redemption.
I hope that myself and others have not come across as too critical of the cards.
(It is always easier to point out other people's mistakes than to create something yourself).
The cards are fantastic! And you guys are geniuses for coming up with all of them!
(As for the tiny minority of cards that may have errors, or confusion - this is minuscule in comparison to the greatness of the whole game!!!)
God bless you & keep up the great work.
In Christ,
Eric
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I agree that WwC can be interpreted to be Mary or the nation of Israel. I wasn't aware of the later interpretation until half way through testing. We aren't necessarily trying to push one view over the other, but the card designed to be WwC in this case is a representation of Mary, thus is considered the same unique character.
The inclusion on the list of Revelation angels is an oversight on my part. She is only human, not angelic for game play purposes.
There is yet a 3rd interpretation that being the Woman with Child is symbolic of the Church. This also works for our purposes with the Church being spiritual Israel and Mary being the mother of the Church.
There is also a 4th interpretation Jesus = new Adam, Mary = new Eve.
I believe it is a mistake to confine one's understanding of the Woman with Child to only one of the four interpretations. I think she (WwC) is all four. She is a unique human because she Mary the mother of Jesus. She is not an angel. Yet Woman with Child is also symbolic of Israel, The Church and the new Eve.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-woman-of-revelation-12 (https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/the-woman-of-revelation-12)
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So... What you are saying is that Adam can band to her? ;D
You could make a 'Murcia deck wit a red blue and white offense!
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Oh I thought you were referring to the newer version. :) But yes that one could use some refining. The other one says it ignores "red" brigade...what's up with that????
In the original limited set, there was no crimson or pale green. The evil colors were red and green. When they made unlimited, The colors were tweaked to make the easier to identify.
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Interesting
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So... What you are saying is that Adam can band to her? ;D
:rollin:
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So if she's all four she's Israel so is she symbolic and human and generic and unique and genderless and female?
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So if she's all four she's Israel so is she symbolic and human and generic and unique and genderless and female?
I don't think a character can be generic and unique at the same time, because generic basically means not unique. I also don't think WwC would be genderless, even if she represents something that would be considered genderless, she is a female representation of it. I could see her being both symbolic and human though, she is a human representation of one or more humans.
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This version of the Woman with Child is a female NT human Hero.
A future version of the Woman with Child most certainly could be "Symbolic" in Redemption terms and used to represent the church and/or nation of Israel. Character/Fortress anyone? 8)
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This version of the Woman with Child is a female NT human Hero.
A future version of the Woman with Child most certainly could be "Symbolic" in Redemption terms and used to represent the church and/or nation of Israel. Character/Fortress anyone? 8)
Yes please!!! Now that would be both thematically and strategically awesome! 8)