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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Bobbert on July 18, 2019, 06:30:12 PM

Title: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: Bobbert on July 18, 2019, 06:30:12 PM
So I was thinking about plays and suddenly realized I may have made an illegal play or two this season.

Say that in my opening hand I draw Delivered, but no other evil cards. I do have a hero, though, so I play it as good and use it to activate Great White Throne from deck. When does Delivered go from my territory to discard? Is it there in time for GWT to banish it as evil for the search?

Spoiler: Delivered (hover to show)
Spoiler: Great White Throne (hover to show)
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: ArmedKevin117 on July 18, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Enhancement discards after its ability completes.
Artifact activates as part of the enhancement ability.
Artifact ability is part of artifact activation.
Artifact ability is "used up" for the turn before enhancement ability completes.
Enhancement is not in discard pile for artifact to target.
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: Bobbert on July 18, 2019, 07:42:21 PM
That's what I was afraid of. Whoops.
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: kariusvega on July 19, 2019, 11:21:39 AM
I’m willing to disagree with ArmedKevin and side with your intuition. The pending abilities following activation don’t hold the used enh in play.

I’d rule your combo as legit

Siding with ArmedKevin, could I use Shrine to Artemis to then shuffle Delivered as a card in my territory?
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: Josh on July 19, 2019, 11:55:12 AM
Delivered isn't discarded until its ability completes.  Its ability doesn't complete until the artifact it activated completes its ability.

Therefore, Delivered is still in play when Great White Throne activates.
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: 777Godspeed on July 19, 2019, 12:04:27 PM
Quote from: ArmedKevin117 on July 18, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Enhancement discards after its ability completes.
I agree with this...

Quote from: ArmedKevin117 on July 18, 2019, 06:51:57 PM
Artifact activates as part of the enhancement ability.
I disagree with this...

1. Delivered SA has told you what to do - Activate an Artifact from deck (or Reserve if you control an Egyptian). SA completes and goes to discard.
2. Activate an Artifact according to Delivered SA.
3. TGWT can target Delivered in Discard pile.

I'm not seeing what ties/holds Delivered in territory for the activation of an Artifact. I would rule it to work.


Godspeed,
Mike
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: RedemptionAggie on July 19, 2019, 12:24:18 PM
It's only specified for "play an Enhancement", but abilities that play other cards (band, activate an Artifact, draw if you draw a LS, etc.) are not complete until after the ability on the played card completes.
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: 777Godspeed on July 19, 2019, 12:43:55 PM
I see now. Thanks for clarifying Aggie.

Godspeed,
Mike
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: Bobbert on July 19, 2019, 01:05:15 PM
Tangentially related question (that I haven't actually accidentally cheated with used yet): normally you get one artifact pile activation per turn, unless you have an ability that allows you more. Does using such an ability during prep phase before normally activating an artifact count as your activation for the turn?
Say on my turn I play Delivered and use it to activate GWT (with an evil card in discard). I get my search. Can I then deactivate GWT and activate Book of the Covenant from my pile instead, since my only art activation was by special ability? Or does it only work the other way around - normal activation, then Delivered to do a new one?
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: goalieking87 on July 19, 2019, 02:13:47 PM
Without looking into the language in the rules, I believe you could only activate twice if you activate normally, then play Delivered for a new activation.

I would think using Delivered first would count as your activation, but could be wrong.
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: kariusvega on July 19, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
So according to Aggie I can definitely:

Use Delivered, Activate Shrine, Shuffle Delivered, Activate Broken Covenant on Pithom, Use Delivered, Activate another artifact THEN it might go into my discard pile
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: Red Dragon Thorn on July 19, 2019, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on July 19, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
So according to Aggie I can definitely:

Use Delivered, Activate Shrine, Shuffle Delivered, Activate Broken Covenant on Pithom, Use Delivered, Activate another artifact THEN it might go into my discard pile

That seems legit to me. You should find a way to activate Endless Treasures too, get another use of Delivered. Even more fun in T2
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: Bobbert on July 19, 2019, 03:17:40 PM
Quote from: goalieking87 on July 19, 2019, 02:13:47 PM
Without looking into the language in the rules, I believe you could only activate twice if you activate normally, then play Delivered for a new activation.

I would think using Delivered first would count as your activation, but could be wrong.

That's kinda what I figured, and would be my common-sense ruling, but as we all know common-sense rulings are not always accurate.


EDIT: that said, now that I've gotten a chance to look it up the REG says " An activate an Artifact effect allows a player to activate an Artifact in a location they control during a phase other than the Preparation Phase or an additional time during the Preparation Phase." I could see an argument that "additional time" would mean that using Delivered first doesn't use up the activation.

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 19, 2019, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on July 19, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
So according to Aggie I can definitely:

Use Delivered, Activate Shrine, Shuffle Delivered, Activate Broken Covenant on Pithom, Use Delivered, Activate another artifact THEN it might go into my discard pile

That seems legit to me. You should find a way to activate Endless Treasures too, get another use of Delivered. Even more fun in T2
sneaks off to plot
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: The Guardian on July 19, 2019, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 19, 2019, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on July 19, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
So according to Aggie I can definitely:

Use Delivered, Activate Shrine, Shuffle Delivered, Activate Broken Covenant on Pithom, Use Delivered, Activate another artifact THEN it might go into my discard pile

That seems legit to me. You should find a way to activate Endless Treasures too, get another use of Delivered. Even more fun in T2

Build around a FooF Isaiah offense (like Bobbert has) and you can add in Delivered recursion.  8)
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: Bobbert on July 19, 2019, 06:13:02 PM
Quote from: The Guardian on July 19, 2019, 04:02:08 PM
Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on July 19, 2019, 02:59:06 PM
Quote from: kariusvega on July 19, 2019, 02:25:12 PM
So according to Aggie I can definitely:

Use Delivered, Activate Shrine, Shuffle Delivered, Activate Broken Covenant on Pithom, Use Delivered, Activate another artifact THEN it might go into my discard pile

That seems legit to me. You should find a way to activate Endless Treasures too, get another use of Delivered. Even more fun in T2

Build around a FooF Isaiah offense (like Bobbert has) and you can add in Delivered recursion.  8)

Or, yaknow, anything that can grab stars from discard.
Title: Re: When do TC enhancements hit discard?
Post by: 777Godspeed on July 20, 2019, 02:14:48 PM
Quote from: RedemptionAggie on July 19, 2019, 12:24:18 PM
It's only specified for "play an Enhancement", but abilities that play other cards (band, activate an Artifact, draw if you draw a LS, etc.) are not complete until after the ability on the played card completes.

So this got me digging around in the REG under Play (Play an Enhancement) and this is what I found that was close to what Aggie is pointing to:

A play an Enhancement effect does not complete until the abilities on its target have activated.

Seemingly suggesting a near simultaneous action of (in this scenario) TGWT activation and enhancement completion/in the discard pile. I am probably reading way too much into this, so it will work, but it doesn't state the target card SA must complete, just activate.  In that case the combo could be read as working. So there must be something else overriding this or this might need to be clarified a smidge.
Maybe along the lines of: A play an Enhancement effect does not complete until the abilities on its target have activated and completed.

Godspeed,
Mike
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