Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: BubbleBoy on May 14, 2010, 10:15:14 PM
-
I know we've played Doubt (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/doubt.htm) that it is discarded at the end of the turn...but why? It changes back to a dominant, but why would it have to leave your territory? Just curious what the reasoning behind this was...
-
Orange Non-Demon EC, C'mon this could be abused or even possibly broken
-
In the way buckler (WA) is broken yes. That IS a good point, why IS it a d/c'd? :D Glory stays.
-
Because it says "this card becomes an orange evil character TILL THE END OF THE CURRENT TURN."
That quote is from my mind, so I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. ::)
-
Because it says "this card becomes an orange evil character TILL THE END OF THE CURRENT TURN."
That quote is from my mind, so I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. ::)
Yep, that's what it says. But where does it say that it is discarded? Just because it changes back to a dominant, that doesn't mean it has to be discarded, does it?
-
I'm pretty sure if it doesn't get used in battle, it goes back to your hand. at least that's how my old playgroup leader used to use it.....
-
I'm pretty sure if it doesn't get used in battle, it goes back to your hand. at least that's how my old playgroup leader used to use it.....
I'm 99.999% sure that is not how this is played. If it was, though, that would be great TGT defense.
-
Yeah.... I didn't think so either. That deck always pwnd me because of that stupid card. but now I use it in my secondary defense. ;D
-
Place in territory. Holder’s Solomon’s Temple and the Artifact in it cannot be discarded or negated by an opponent. Discard this card if Asherah Pole is in holder’s Solomon’s Temple.
Place in any territory. When played, this card becomes an orange brigade 0/12 Evil Character until end of turn.
I was going to say the reason Glory stays is because it says Place, but then I realized Doubt says the exact same thing. Why does Doubt go to the discard pile, while Glory does not?
-
I was going to say the reason Glory stays is because it says Place, but then I realized Doubt says the exact same thing.
Would it even make a difference if it didn't?
-
it would be awesome to have doubt in my territory and my opponent makes a RA with tep nathan then i could shuffle it back in my deck ^_^
-
it would be awesome to have doubt in my territory and my opponent makes a RA with tep nathan then i could shuffle it back in my deck ^_^
Or to reuse it again after an ANB, or to have it as Discarder fodder...the applications are dizzying!
-
Exactly. :D
-
Final answer?
-
Final answer?
-
Final answer?
-
interesting. here is how i see it happening:
1. place doubt in a territory.
2. doubt becomes an orange brigade evil character.
3. doubt ceases to be an orange brigade evil character at end of turn.
4. since there is no language that suggests it is discarded, due to it being 'placed', it would stick around until removed from play.
that is how i logically see it.
-
interesting. here is how i see it happening:
1. place doubt in a territory.
2. doubt becomes an orange brigade evil character.
3. doubt ceases to be an orange brigade evil character at end of turn.
4. since there is no language that suggests it is discarded, due to it being 'placed', it would stick around until removed from play.
that is how i logically see it.
So it would stick around in which part of your territory? I just hope that a ptb can rule on this quickly, if so i'ma make a deck around that
-
interesting. here is how i see it happening:
1. place doubt in a territory.
2. doubt becomes an orange brigade evil character.
3. doubt ceases to be an orange brigade evil character at end of turn.
4. since there is no language that suggests it is discarded, due to it being 'placed', it would stick around until removed from play.
that is how i logically see it.
That's how I see it as well.
-
I was going to say the reason Glory stays is because it says Place, but then I realized Doubt says the exact same thing. Why does Doubt go to the discard pile, while Glory does not?
since there is no language that suggests it is discarded, due to it being 'placed', it would stick around until removed from play.
I am also unsure of why Doubt would be discarded if it survived the battle. I think having a PTB post here is a good idea.
-
Nice thinking! :)
I don't know why it should be discarded. Going strictly by the rules, it seems to me that it should stick around doing nothing, as a dominant, in your territory where surviving evil characters would normally be.
-
Oh wonderful... We now have a card which for 4 years was discarded(Like it's suposed too) now sit in terratory.(OMGosh) this is wonderful.(Sarcasm)
-
I Doubt it.
-
Oh wonderful... We now have a card which for 4 years was discarded(Like it's suposed too) now sit in terratory.(OMGosh) this is wonderful.(Sarcasm)
Instead of useless, spamming sarcasm, can you explain why this is a bad thing?
-
I Doubt it.
:rollin:
-
Could it be used to block, and always win initiative? Or is it just a chill buddy for all the EC's?
The real point is: Does it serve a purpose after use?
It'd make a really nice coaster.
-
Oh wonderful... We now have a card which for 4 years was discarded(Like it's suposed too) now sit in terratory.(OMGosh) this is wonderful.(Sarcasm)
Instead of useless, spamming sarcasm, can you explain why this is a bad thing?
the end was sarcasm. and the card is Suposed to be discarded not sit uselessly in terratory. this creates table clutter.(Same with Holy grail) any limited use card sould be discarded for the tableclutter issue redemption is a big game space wise and this compounds the problem.l
-
the end was sarcasm. and the card is Suposed to be discarded not sit uselessly in terratory. this creates table clutter.(Same with Holy grail) any limited use card sould be discarded for the tableclutter issue redemption is a big game space wise and this compounds the problem.l
Thats the thing, its not a "may be used once" card, so that ruling does not apply. It says its converted to an EC for one turn, nothing about "uses."
And its not "supposed" to be discarded, or else it would specify on the card to discard it.
-
Oh wonderful... We now have a card which for 4 years was discarded(Like it's suposed too) now sit in terratory.(OMGosh) this is wonderful.(Sarcasm)
Instead of useless, spamming sarcasm, can you explain why this is a bad thing?
the end was sarcasm. and the card is Suposed to be discarded not sit uselessly in terratory. this creates table clutter.(Same with Holy grail) any limited use card sould be discarded for the tableclutter issue redemption is a big game space wise and this compounds the problem.l
It actually makes the card usable, thanks to cards like Nathan. Doubt is chillin' in my territory after making a successful block, then I shuffle it to make you shuffle one of your cards, and then I can use it again. I honestly might actually Doubt in decks now.
-
Oh wonderful... We now have a card which for 4 years was discarded(Like it's suposed too) now sit in terratory.(OMGosh) this is wonderful.(Sarcasm)
Instead of useless, spamming sarcasm, can you explain why this is a bad thing?
the end was sarcasm. and the card is Suposed to be discarded not sit uselessly in terratory. this creates table clutter.(Same with Holy grail) any limited use card sould be discarded for the tableclutter issue redemption is a big game space wise and this compounds the problem.l
It actually makes the card usable, thanks to cards like Nathan. Doubt is chillin' in my territory after making a successful block, then I shuffle it to make you shuffle one of your cards, and then I can use it again. I honestly might actually Doubt in decks now.
Could also be fodder for the evil discard LS :) But yeah, the chance to reuse a Dominant... Pretty cool.
-
Nice thinking! :)
I don't know why it should be discarded. Going strictly by the rules, it seems to me that it should stick around doing nothing, as a dominant, in your territory where surviving evil characters would normally be.
So can you reuse it, or does it just sit there...
-
You can't place it into battle after the first turn its in play. But you can manipulate it, use it to pay costs, shuffle it back in via any number of ways. etc.
-
Nathan, Discarder LS, A New Beginning, fodder for Levi or Astrologers...
I'm just wondering, why didn't anyone think of this before? The card doesn't even need a play as or anything; the whole world has just been playing it wrong. :D
-
Now I'm going to make an ANB-Doubt deck just so I can say "I used the same dominant twice this game!"
-
it still has to survive the battle though, which is still highly unlikely. i can see it useful in a mono-orange deck to further help get by tgt, and successfully block with it.
-
it still has to survive the battle though, which is still highly unlikely. i can see it useful in a mono-orange deck to further help get by tgt, and successfully block with it.
+ Madness + TGoH ::)
-
yes. orange probably has the most hard tgt-counters (doubt, madness, gates, destructive sin).
-
I rule that Doubt stays in play unless Son of God is played while Thomas is in battle.
-
Of course, all this is negated by the Mountain Dew card.
-
I rule that Doubt stays in play unless Son of God is played while Thomas is in battle.
+1 :rollin:
-
I don't seem to find anything in the rules that tells me why we discard any of the Dominants after they're played. Maybe I'm missing it. Can anyone point me to where that rule is written?
-
They all go off to a dominant tea party, which is nice and civil until someone claims the Phillies should have won it all last year.
-
They all go off to a dominant tea party, which is nice and civil until someone claims the Phillies should have won it all last year.
That would be me. Maybe this year...
-
I wasn't much into sports until I found a Phillies hat this weekend. Though my roommate is for every Philly team.
-
I don't seem to find anything in the rules that tells me why we discard any of the Dominants after they're played. Maybe I'm missing it. Can anyone point me to where that rule is written?
But none of the other dominants save GotL say "Place in territory". Which is why the thinking is that since Doubt says "Place in territory", it stays there indefinitely. It's not doing anything there, but it says to place it there, and there it is placed until further notice. Other dominants are never placed anywhere (except GoYS of course) so their effect is carried out, and they go to the only natural place for them. They might as well be removed from the game after they are used though, it would make zero difference in game play.
-
Right. Doubt has a "place" ability, like Glory of the Lord and Guardian of Your Souls. Place has rules that say it stays unless an ability removes it.
Doubt reverts to a dominant in your territory at the end of your turn, but that does not undo the place ability. Doubt stays.
-
Right. Doubt has a "place" ability, like Glory of the Lord and Guardian of Your Souls. Place has rules that say it stays unless an ability removes it.
Doubt reverts to a dominant in your territory at the end of your turn, but that does not undo the place ability. Doubt stays.
I agree up to this point. What I disagree with is the multiple use of a Dominant. Example - Successful block with Doubt. Doubt sits in territory as a Dominant. ANB is played and Doubt is shuffled back in to be reused. I thought the game rule was Dominants could be used once per game. Some how I'm not finding that game rule / wording in the REG. Maybe it has just been an assumption we have been making about Dominants, similar to our assumption of discarding Doubt at the end of battle. Is there a hard fast rule about how many times a dominant can be used during a game?
Godspeed,
Mike
-
I agree up to this point. What I disagree with is the multiple use of a Dominant. Example - Successful block with Doubt. Doubt sits in territory as a Dominant. ANB is played and Doubt is shuffled back in to be reused. I thought the game rule was Dominants could be used once per game. Some how I'm not finding that game rule / wording in the REG. Maybe it has just been an assumption we have been making about Dominants, similar to our assumption of discarding Doubt at the end of battle. Is there a hard fast rule about how many times a dominant can be used during a game?
7. :3
-
No, it's just that they were careful to make it so none of them could be recurred after use.
Besides, would being able to use doubt a few times, with some turns in between to draw him again, really be that bad?
-
Right. Doubt has a "place" ability, like Glory of the Lord and Guardian of Your Souls. Place has rules that say it stays unless an ability removes it.
Doubt reverts to a dominant in your territory at the end of your turn, but that does not undo the place ability. Doubt stays.
I agree up to this point. What I disagree with is the multiple use of a Dominant.
Glory of the Lord can be used twice if ANB is played. Doubt would be no different.
-
Glory of the Lord can be used twice if ANB is played. Doubt would be no different.
Alrighty........play on
Godspeed,
Mike
-
Hey,
Necroposting FTW!
I don't seem to find anything in the rules that tells me why we discard any of the Dominants after they're played. Maybe I'm missing it. Can anyone point me to where that rule is written?
Gabe might be right that it isn't written anywhere, but I'm pretty sure the rule is that Dominants are discarded after their ability has completed.
Glory of the Lord and Guardian of Your Souls have abilities that last until the end of the game, so they remain on the table until their ability completes, or until the end of the game. Doubt's ability lasts until the end of the turn. At the end of the turn it's ability completes at which point it is discarded by the (unwritten?) rule that dominants are discarded after their ability completes.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
At the end of the turn it's ability completes at which point it is discarded by the (unwritten?) rule that dominants are discarded after their ability completes.
If the rule isn't written, then until it is written, I agree with Gabe, Bryon, and Prof A that Doubt sticks around.
-
At the end of the turn it's ability completes at which point it is discarded by the (unwritten?) rule that dominants are discarded after their ability completes.
If the rule isn't written, then until it is written, I agree with Gabe, Bryon, and Prof A that Doubt sticks around.
-
Hey,
At the end of the turn it's ability completes at which point it is discarded by the (unwritten?) rule that dominants are discarded after their ability completes.
If the rule isn't written, then until it is written, I agree with Gabe, Bryon, and Prof A that Doubt sticks around.
Are you also saying that Son of God sticks around after it is played?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
SoG doesn't have a place ability.
-
Are you also saying that Son of God sticks around after it is played?
Pol is right. Doubt stays around because of the "place" ability. SoG doesn't have that. Bryon already covered that earlier in the thread. In case you missed it, I'll copy it below.
Doubt has a "place" ability, like Glory of the Lord and Guardian of Your Souls. Place has rules that say it stays unless an ability removes it.
-
At the end of the turn it's ability completes at which point it is discarded by the (unwritten?) rule that dominants are discarded after their ability completes.
If the rule isn't written, then until it is written, I agree with Gabe, Bryon, and Prof A that Doubt sticks around.
Where was this reasoning when I brought up the Storehouse / definition of unused ruling? ;D
-
At the end of the turn it's ability completes at which point it is discarded by the (unwritten?) rule that dominants are discarded after their ability completes.
If the rule isn't written, then until it is written, I agree with Gabe, Bryon, and Prof A that Doubt sticks around.
Where was this reasoning when I brought up the Storehouse / definition of unused ruling? ;D
I agree, any negated enhancement could be considered "unused"....
Also, the final ruling on Doubt is that it is an Orange EC until end of turn, when it then becomes a Dominant and just chillaxes until shuffled/whatever?
-
Also, the final ruling on Doubt is that it is an Orange EC until end of turn, when it then becomes a Dominant and just chillaxes until shuffled/whatever?
That is the current ruling. But it's not the intuitive ruling. Until this thread, everyone (all 5 of you) that has played Doubt since Priests was released have discarded it at the end of the turn.
Don't get me wrong, nobody is in any hurry to change a rule that will make Doubt less playable but we value consistent, intuitive rules over individual cards, even Doubt. So I'm only suggesting that this might change in the future.
-
I understand that Gabe, but in reality if we want cards to be played as intuitively as possible, perhaps the wording should be exactly what it was intended to be as opposed to us having to assume what the person authoring the card intended for it to mean. This is not an attack on the PTB, but it is a desire of mine to be able to teach a card game to a new player without having to explain that a card doesn't do what the card says it does. That is a major turn off for Redemption and a large barrier to seeing a bigger player base introduced to the game. I have at least one guy in our playgroup that as soon as the new cards are released, has several questions about card wording that is not resolved in the card itself, not even considering the combos with that card and others. I actually think he would be an asset to the play testing process although he is not very involved on the boards (Perri)...
-
... we value consistent, intuitive rules ...
... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Good one, Gabe. ;)
-
it makes nathan better!
-
Hey,
Don't get me wrong, nobody is in any hurry to change a rule that will make Doubt less playable
If we wanted to do that we'd just say that it's ability activates when it enters battle as an evil character :)
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Don't get me wrong, nobody is in any hurry to change a rule that will make Doubt less playable but we value consistent, intuitive rules over individual cards, even Doubt. So I'm only suggesting that this might change in the future.
everybody certainly seemed in a hurry to change a rule that makes Eleazar's Sword less playable...
but that rule isn't official yet, is it?
-
it may not be intuitive, but it sure is consistent (Eleazar's sword)
-
but that rule isn't official yet, is it?
IMPROMPTU IMPROMPTU IMPROMPTU IMPROMPTU IMPROMPTU. WE STILL HAVE A CHANCE, WE HAVE A CHANCE WE HAVE A CHANCE.
-
but that rule isn't official yet, is it?
Yes, but only in MN.
-
Austin is like 10 minutes from the IA border. Your move.
-
Austin is like 10 minutes from the IA border. Your move.
I call in my AC-130 and get 13 kills. Hardline FTW.
... we value consistent, intuitive rules ...
... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Good one, Gabe. ;)
Dear Mr. Boy,
Having the priviledge to post before the Elders gives me the chance to speak for them. I (and they) would appreciate that you cease and desist with the put-downing remarks. Yes, I am guilty of posting these remarks as well, but I wish to apologize to the Elders and Playtesters for my childish behavior. They take a lot of junk from us about consistent rulings and whatnot, and if I were a PT/Elder, I would very much feel like I wasn't worth contributing my time if all people did was make fun of my rulings/whatnot. They should be highly appreciated and valued, which I (and probably they) do not feel they are.
In addition, this is to all of you who post such comments (including myself), not a personal attack on Bubble Boy.
/endrant
Master_Chi
-
why only in MN? are we the guinea pigs of redemption carding? or am i just totally lost?
but that rule isn't official yet, is it?
Yes, but only in MN.
-
why only in MN? are we the guinea pigs of redemption carding? or am i just totally lost?
but that rule isn't official yet, is it?
Yes, but only in MN.
Gabe just doesn't want to face my deck in the T2 only. ;)
-
I've got a beautiful t2 deck you need to see. It is probably the worst deck ever, but it is awesome.
-
I've got a beautiful t2 deck you need to see. It is probably the worst deck ever, but it is awesome.
heh, you haven't seen mine yet. so beautiful, yet so terrible. too bad I only have it down on paper...
-
I don't even have mine totally on paper.... yet its awesome. It is an improved version of one of Lambo's combos :-*
-
send me list please. :)