Author Topic: What do good evil enhancements count as in the draw and discard piles? (Read 4707 times)

Nameless · « **on:** September 05, 2011, 10:12:44 AM »

Do they count as good or as evil, for the perpesses of searching for them?

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #1 on:** September 05, 2011, 10:14:55 AM »

Quote from: Nameless on September 05, 2011, 10:12:44 AM

Do they count as good or as evil, for the perpesses of searching for them?

Both.

Neil Da BOMB J · « **Reply #2 on:** September 05, 2011, 11:55:47 AM »

I will highjack this thread (seeing that david got his answer) to ask if I can search for counsil of abigail( a Red/Purple enhancment) with a soldiers prayer. I also wqant to know if Curses count as enhancments or/and artifancts in Draw pile.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 05, 2011, 12:06:52 PM »

Yes to the first. A Red/Purple enhancement is both a Red enhancement and a Purple enhancement.

No to the second. A Covenant or Curse in the draw/discard pile is a Covenant or a Curse. It is not an enhancement nor is it an artifact.

The Warrior · « **Reply #4 on:** September 05, 2011, 12:55:54 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 05, 2011, 12:06:52 PM

Yes to the first. A Red/Purple enhancement is both a Red enhancement and a Purple enhancement.

No to the second. A Covenant or Curse in the draw/discard pile is a Covenant or a Curse. It is not an enhancement nor is it an artifact.

This is inconsistent. Shouldn't Good/Evil Card be Neutral until play similar to Cov's?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #5 on:** September 05, 2011, 01:07:52 PM »

No. Covenant and Curse are card types, just as Enhancement is a card type. In deck and discard, all cards are face-value which for a Cov/Curse is a Cov/Curse, and for a DAE is an Evil Enhancement and a Good Enhancement.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 05, 2011, 01:38:20 PM »

Nice explanation.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #7 on:** September 05, 2011, 02:27:56 PM »

As an aside to this, if a good/evil enhancement is played in battle as a good enhancement for a hero, and that hero later plays a card that says "Discard all evil enhancements in battle," would the good/evil enhancement be discarded?

SomeKittens · « **Reply #8 on:** September 05, 2011, 02:32:55 PM »

No. Once they're played, they can only be targeted as the alignment they've been played as. (As long as they stay in territory/battle/set aside.

BubbleBoy · « **Reply #9 on:** September 05, 2011, 02:51:15 PM »

Quote from: Minister Polarius on September 05, 2011, 01:07:52 PM

No. Covenant and Curse are card types, just as Enhancement is a card type. In deck and discard, all cards are face-value which for a Cov/Curse is a Cov/Curse, and for a DAE is an Evil Enhancement and a Good Enhancement.

To further clarify (or perhaps the opposite), covenants and curses are subject to the same default brigade rules as enhancements and characters. For example, if you have a card that says "search discard pile for a Pale Green Curse," that will allow you to search for Covenant with Death because it is both Pale Green and Brown, just as Soldier's Prayer can search for Counsel of Abigail because it is both Red and Purple.

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 05, 2011, 04:33:18 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 05, 2011, 02:32:55 PM

No. Once they're played, they can only be targeted as the alignment they've been played as. (As long as they stay in territory/battle/set aside.

Correct. This is similar to how DoN can take out a covenant or curse that is active as an artifact.

Arch Angel · « **Reply #11 on:** September 05, 2011, 06:04:30 PM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 05, 2011, 04:33:18 PM

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 05, 2011, 02:32:55 PM
No. Once they're played, they can only be targeted as the alignment they've been played as. (As long as they stay in territory/battle/set aside.
Correct. This is similar to how DoN can take out a covenant or curse that is active as an artifact.

I don't think it's similar at all. In fact, from what i can tell the logic of curses being targeted as their face value and what they're used as is the exact opposite of DAEs only being targeted as what they're being used as.

A Cov/Curse is ALWAYS considered a Cov/Curse. It is also targettable according to how it is being used. however, it is still considered good/evil for brigade checks on cards such as Balance.

DAEs should always be treated as BOTH good and evil to follow this logic.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #12 on:** September 05, 2011, 06:09:52 PM »

A Cov/Curse is always a Cov/Curse.

A DAE is always an Enhancement. Good Enhancement and Evil Enhancement are not card types, they are alignment designations of the card type "Enhancement."

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #13 on:** September 05, 2011, 07:12:29 PM »

Quote from: Arch Angel on September 05, 2011, 06:04:30 PM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 05, 2011, 04:33:18 PM
Quote from: SomeKittens on September 05, 2011, 02:32:55 PM
No. Once they're played, they can only be targeted as the alignment they've been played as. (As long as they stay in territory/battle/set aside.
Correct. This is similar to how DoN can take out a covenant or curse that is active as an artifact.
I don't think it's similar at all. In fact, from what i can tell the logic of curses being targeted as their face value and what they're used as is the exact opposite of DAEs only being targeted as what they're being used as.

Huh?

When a Covenant is put into play as an artifact (for example), you can target it as an artifact and you cannot target it as an enhancement. When a good/evil enhancement is put into play as a good enhancement (for example), you can target it as a good enhancement and you cannot target it as an evil enhancement. The two situations are complete analogous. I am confused as to why you think in-play targeting is the "exact opposite" between the two.

In play targeting (and my statement above which is talking about in-play targeting) have absolutely nothing to do targeting in deck or discard pile.

Red Dragon Thorn · « **Reply #14 on:** September 05, 2011, 09:01:06 PM »

I believe the precieved difference is that Curses and Covenants are additonal card types - I am Patience being used as an artifact cannot be targeted as an enhancement, but it can be targeted as both a curse and an artifact.

Dual-Alignment-Enhancement isn't an official card type - There isn't a single card in the game that refers to them as such, And so comparing them to Covs/Curses is kind of like comparing a Crab apple to a Fuji or Braeburn. That is where the confusion comes in.

NOW, before somebody tries to quote me on this, I'm just stating why I think some players (Myself included) Don't fully understand why we can't Grapes Foreign Sword off of Ahimelek.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #15 on:** September 05, 2011, 09:17:28 PM »

Can you use DoN to Discard a CoM that Balaam played in battle?

WesterForever · « **Reply #16 on:** September 05, 2011, 09:28:13 PM »

No, because if a covenant is used in battle it is played as an enhancement. So it loses its Artifact identifier.

Master KChief · « **Reply #17 on:** September 05, 2011, 11:21:24 PM »

thats exactly why you cannot grapes a foreign sword on a red brigade hero, it was designated as a good enhancement so it loses its evil enhancement identity.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #18 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:15:01 AM »

would this also apply to multiple brigade good enhancements? if I play spritual warfare on a green hero could it not be targeted as a silver enhancement?

lightningninja · « **Reply #19 on:** September 06, 2011, 01:29:03 AM »

I believe it could, that's still the same type of card. Both silver and green enhancements are good enhancements.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #20 on:** September 10, 2011, 10:33:56 AM »

So is this an official ruling?

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #21 on:** September 10, 2011, 12:05:25 PM »

I don't know how official it is, but that is the way it has been played forever.*

*Or given the confusion about what happens when you unprevent a prevented enhancement, maybe I should say that is how everyone I have seen has played it forever. Pol may have played it differently.

browarod · « **Reply #22 on:** September 10, 2011, 01:29:04 PM »

Maybe I live under a rock, but I've never heard that a green/silver enhancement loses its green-ness if played on a silver hero.

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #23 on:** September 10, 2011, 02:25:41 PM »

Quote from: Red Dragon Thorn on September 05, 2011, 09:01:06 PM

Dual-Alignment-Enhancement isn't an official card type - There isn't a single card in the game that refers to them as such, And so comparing them to Covs/Curses is kind of like comparing a Crab apple to a Fuji or Braeburn. That is where the confusion comes in.

I agree with RDT that this is the crux of this issue. Either:

1 - DAE should be its own card type, and then when it is played it becomes a DAE/GE -OR- a DAE/EE.

2 - DAE is NOT a card type, and then the card is always both a GE -AND- an EE.

If #1 is correct, then you could not target a DAE played on a hero as an EE. If #2 is correct, then you could. At this time, I don't know whether we will declare DAE's to be a new card type.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #24 on:** September 10, 2011, 02:58:02 PM »

My understanding (and how I've been playing it) is that a good/evil enhancement only has the identifier of what it's been played as, once it's been played. However, in the draw pile, discard pile, or hand, it functions as both. Honestly, this seems the logical way to play it, based on the way that covenants and curses are used once put in play. If played as an artifact, it cannot be targeted as an enhancement, and vice versa.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #25 on:** September 10, 2011, 03:52:18 PM »

That is my understanding as well.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #26 on:** September 10, 2011, 04:20:30 PM »

The only problem with that analogy is that when a covenant is in draw pile or hand, it can't be targeted as an artifact or enhancement, but dual alignment cards can be targeted as both good and evil in deck/hand. This to me draws a distinction between covenants and dual cards and shows that they are different on some level, meaning they should be ruled differently. I would say that because the can be targeted as both good and evil in deck, then they are both good and evil all of the time, or that they should be considered neutral in deck/hand and when you play them they are then good or evil.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #27 on:** September 10, 2011, 04:27:57 PM »

That is not very logical. At all times their card type is Enhancement. At face value, the alignment of that card type is both Good and Evil. When the card is played, one alignment or another is chosen, and it loses the other.

This is the only way to be consistent with the rule that Heroes don't play EE's and EC's don't play GE's. It's also the most logical and the most consistent with similar rulings on similar card types.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #28 on:** September 10, 2011, 05:17:00 PM »

I would be supportive of making an official "joint" card type, provided that it functions the way I described earlier.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #29 on:** September 10, 2011, 05:35:44 PM »

That may boost the Green brigade too much.

Chronic Apathy · « **Reply #30 on:** September 10, 2011, 05:38:22 PM »

I don't think so. Zeke and Isaiah both already search for a good card from their respective books. Unless I'm missing something, that's the main thing I'd be worried about.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #31 on:** September 10, 2011, 05:40:28 PM »

Then you either need to create a new dual alignment card type that functions this way or change the rule that heros can only play enhancements that are good and not exclusively good and evil characters can play enhancements that are evil and not exclusively evil. To me it should not be a new card type because it doesn't have its own symbol and it is no different that a regular enhancement except for the fact that it both good and evil. Here is the REG definition of enhancement, it says nothing about notbeing able to play an evil enhancement on a hero of visa versa, it just says that the brigae color must match. Please alert me to any other REG entries that say otherwise, but according to this, you can play an enhancement that is both good and evil on a hero, as long as 1 of the brigates matches the hero.

Enhancement
Enhancements have abilities and/or special abilities that affect game play. Abilities on enhancements are combined with the character’s abilities. Enhancements are generally used in the Battle Phase. However, healing enhancements, set-aside enhancements, and weapon-class enhancements can be played outside of battle. Good enhancements have a Bible icon and are used by Heroes. Evil enhancements have a skull icon and are used by Evil Characters. An enhancement must be of the same color brigade as the character upon which it is played.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #32 on:** September 10, 2011, 05:42:49 PM »

Gold Hero plays Wonders Forgotten. Your argument is invalid.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #33 on:** September 10, 2011, 06:01:26 PM »

Don't blame me, that's what is in the REG. As of right now a gold hero could play wonders forgotten unless there is something in the REG that says otherwise. Of course this will need to be changed in the REG if it is not in there already somewhere.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #34 on:** September 10, 2011, 06:45:22 PM »

Whether or not it's in the REG, nobody is making a serious argument that it's not a rule.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #35 on:** September 11, 2011, 12:12:00 AM »

Idk what I'm really arguing anymore

mainly I just don't think it should be its own classification on enhancement because it doesn't have its own symbol and it could lead to confusion for something like seigeworks with people not being able to remember if it was played as a good or evil enhancement halfway through a game. I think it would be easier to change the rule to make it so that you just have to play an enhancement to match the character's brigade and officially classify the gold brigades as good gold and evil gold than to make dual alignment its own kind of enhancement. Redemption has enough different kinds of enhancements and classifications, we don't need to add another, its alreay a confusing enough game to learn, no need to make it harder

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #36 on:** September 11, 2011, 12:47:13 AM »

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 10, 2011, 06:01:26 PM

As of right now a gold hero could play wonders forgotten unless there is something in the REG that says otherwise. Of course this will need to be changed in the REG if it is not in there already somewhere.

It is in there already...

Quote from: sepjazzwarrior on September 10, 2011, 05:40:28 PM

Enhancement
Enhancements have abilities and/or special abilities that affect game play. Abilities on enhancements are combined with the character’s abilities. Enhancements are generally used in the Battle Phase. However, healing enhancements, set-aside enhancements, and weapon-class enhancements can be played outside of battle. Good enhancements have a Bible icon and are used by Heroes. Evil enhancements have a skull icon and are used by Evil Characters. An enhancement must be of the same color brigade as the character upon which it is played.

Wonders Forgotten does not have a Bible icon, so it cannot be used by a hero.

sepjazzwarrior · « **Reply #37 on:** September 11, 2011, 01:20:05 AM »

Good catch EmJayBee83

So under the rules right now there is nothing wrong with playing a dual alignment enhancement on a character. From what I see, you need to fill 2 requirements to play an enhancement on a hero/EC:
1. It must have the correct icon (Bible or dragon)
2. It must be of matching brigade

As long as the enhancement meets these requirements, you can play it. We don't need to create a new card type or anything, dual alignment enhancements follow all the rules right now, so no need to make it any more confusing.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #38 on:** September 11, 2011, 01:26:19 AM »

Agreed, no new card types. DAE's are Enhancements.

*EDIT* Just thought of another flaw to your letter-of-the-law argument. Gold Hero plays Seven Years of Famine. According to you, legal (has a Bible icon and is gold).

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #39 on:** September 20, 2011, 11:56:23 AM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on September 20, 2011, 11:53:22 AM

Dual Alignment Enhancements (DAEs) are both good and evil while not on the table (in deck, hand, discard pile), but that once they are played they lose their other identity. Therefore, a DAE played on a hero is no longer an EE, and can't be targeted as such. And a DAE played on an evil character is not longer a GE, and can't be targeted as such.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #40 on:** September 20, 2011, 12:05:43 PM »

EmJayBee83 · « **Reply #41 on:** September 21, 2011, 12:00:18 AM »

Prof, I don't think quoting yourself counts as two elders being in agreement.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #42 on:** September 21, 2011, 12:01:57 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 21, 2011, 12:00:18 AM

Prof, I don't think quoting yourself counts as two elders being in agreement.

He has a Dual Personality Disorder (DPD).

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #43 on:** September 21, 2011, 03:15:21 AM »

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 21, 2011, 12:00:18 AM

Prof, I don't think quoting yourself counts as two elders being in agreement.

You are of course correct. However, this is an instance where I am merely reporting the consensus decision of the elders in general, and not just my own opinion about a ruling. Therefore, this should be taken as official at this time.

P.S. I know you were joking

SomeKittens · « **Reply #44 on:** September 21, 2011, 09:21:12 AM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 21, 2011, 12:01:57 AM

Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 21, 2011, 12:00:18 AM
Prof, I don't think quoting yourself counts as two elders being in agreement.

He has a Dual Personality Disorder (DPD).

Depends on if he's played on Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde.

YourMathTeacher · « **Reply #45 on:** September 21, 2011, 04:01:32 PM »

Quote from: SomeKittens on September 21, 2011, 09:21:12 AM

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 21, 2011, 12:01:57 AM
Quote from: EmJayBee83 on September 21, 2011, 12:00:18 AM
Prof, I don't think quoting yourself counts as two elders being in agreement.

He has a Dual Personality Disorder (DPD).
Depends on if he's played on Dr. Jekyll or Mr. Hyde.

There's no need to use fictional names. His personality split is already well documented. His good side (Prof Underwood) and his evil side (ProfessorAlstad) are constantly at war with each other.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #46 on:** September 21, 2011, 05:40:48 PM »

Quote from: YourMathTeacher on September 21, 2011, 04:01:32 PM

There's no need to use fictional names. His personality split is already well documented. His good side (Prof Underwood) and his evil side (ProfessorAlstad) are constantly at war with each other.

News:

Author Topic: What do good evil enhancements count as in the draw and discard piles? (Read 4707 times)

browarod

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy

Chronic Apathy