Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on August 13, 2009, 12:06:18 AM
-
I know Wasting Disease is considered a disease, but what heroes become diseased by it? Meaning, if I played Face of Death, what heroes would be killed? Just those with play next abilities, or all heroes?
Wasting Disease, Brown Curse, Prevent all good abilities that allow a player to play an Enhancement.
-
I don't see how any heroes are "diseased" by this card. By definition, the heroes would have to be subject to a decrease.
-
The disease is not being able to play enhancements. The diseased are those who normally could play enhancements.
Just my thoughts.
-
The disease targets a SA, not a hero. Face of Death specifies "heroes who are diseased."
Face of Death has no effect in connection with Wasting Disease.
-
The SA is part of the hero.
Alzhiemer's targets your brain, but your still ocnsiered diseased, because it is a part of you.
-
Thanks Doctor, but this is just a game.
What if an artifact grants the SA. Does the artifact become diseased?
-
Thanks for the sarcasm targeted at a legit comparison.
I would rule the heroes are diseased. I would use a comparison to a exoskeleton to explain it. If I am wearing an exoskeleton and it got a virus and malfunctioned, and I was stuck inside the armor, I would be affected by it.
In Redemption terms, diseased.
-
LOL, exoskeleton.
this isn't metal gear solid.
-
But it is Halo.
-
...in that case, i agree with alex. :D
-
It's neither. This is Crysis.
-
Crysis is just Halo for PC, because Bungie is too $ to care about PCs anymore. Even Micro$oft doesn't care. Heck, you'd figure if they bought some stupid little mac game company, they'd have them make games for windows.
But no, they'd rather sell their console and make a bunch of money, only to have the fledging games makers buy back their indendence on 7/7/7.
Tru7h.
-
:rollin:
-
long live bungie.
-
I know Wasting Disease is considered a disease, but what heroes become diseased by it? Meaning, if I played Face of Death, what heroes would be killed? Just those with play next abilities, or all heroes?
Wasting Disease, Brown Curse, Prevent all good abilities that allow a player to play an Enhancement.
Nice discussion. However, nobody addressed the question. The Wasting Disease "disease" card targets the special ability "play an enhancement". Hence, the only characters Face of Death will be able to target are those that have that special ability. Ethiopian Treasurer comes to mind immediately. What I wonder is how to deal with characters that have one of the "Horsees" as a weapon-class enhancement (they include the "play an enhancement" special ability). What about a regular enhancement "on" a character at the time Face of Death is played?
The interesting question for me is that last issue - namely, whether a character is effected by the special ability on a card "on" a character. I am not sure.
Mike
-
Nice discussion. However, nobody addressed the question. The Wasting Disease "disease" card targets the special ability "play an enhancement". Hence, the only characters Face of Death will be able to target are those that have that special ability.
That's what Alex said in his first post.
I still disagree, and your uncertainty about weapons is the reason. I would still argue that weapons, enhancements, artifacts, fortresses, etc. cannot be "diseased" by Redemption standards. This card should therefore have no impact in connection to Face of Death.
-
I would say that a character holding a "horsee" would not be diseased as a result of wasting disease. That character would not be able to use the ability of "play the next enhancement" but if face of death were played I would say they would not be discarded. The "horsee" is not part of that character (if you are a riding a diseased "horsee" you can just get off, if you have a diseased brain you cannot remove it without dying-the brain being the hero SA). Hope that made sense, but that is my two cents worth :laugh:
-
Wasting Disease is not a disease card. However, it is very confusing as it has the word "Disease" in the title. This is similar to the fact that the original Poison card is not a poison card, because it does not have a poison ability.
Kirk
-
http://redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_disease.htm (http://redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_disease.htm)
“Disease” is a label given to certain cards which represent harmful diseases.
-
I didn't realize Wasting Disease was on that list. Regardless, I have contested that Plagued with Diseases is not a disease card and should not be, and I will say the same about Wasting Disease. I talked with Tim Maly briefly about PwD at nationals, and he mentioned that it will not be considered a disease when the new REG comes out.
Kirk
-
There is a distinct difference here, though. PwD specifically targets heroes, as does Face of Death. Wasting Disease does not target heroes. I agree that the issue is simply the fact that Wasting Disease has the word "disease" in it, therefore it is forced into the Disease list. However, it does not function like any other disease. All other diseases (and poisons) specifically target heroes.
-
I didn't realize Wasting Disease was on that list. Regardless, I have contested that Plagued with Diseases is not a disease card and should not be, and I will say the same about Wasting Disease. I talked with Tim Maly briefly about PwD at nationals, and he mentioned that it will not be considered a disease when the new REG comes out.
Kirk
Why should PwD NOT be a disease? Not only does it have disease in the name, but it targets heroes for decrease. Diseases most often have decrease abilities. I do not see why PwD should be considered anything other than a disease.
-
It does target heroes. Wasting disease just targets specific heroes, similar to cards that target heroes by testament.
-
It does target heroes. Wasting disease just targets specific heroes, similar to cards that target heroes by testament.
They are not similar, since those cards specify "NT Heroes (or humans)."
-
If anything i would say Plagued with Diseases is more obviously a disease that Wasting Disease...but either way they both target heroes and are both diseases and I would say it seems pretty clear that Face of Death would discard heroes targeted by both cards. The question we were trying to answer is what about a character holding a "horsee" (draw two, play next enhancement)? They now have the ability to play the next enhancement so is the hero targeted by wasting disease or only the "horsee"?
-
wasting disease only targets good cards..so i hope your talking about a converted EC ;D
-
does it? ......after further review you are correct! Ok, well then yes a converted EC...like lets say Naaman and Naamans Chariot and Horses. Thanks for the correction!
-
There are plenty of "Play Next" enhancements that are good, including Words of Encouragement and Reach of Desperation. Angel's Sword is also specifically a weapon-class enhancement.
-
right well we needed a weapon class enhancement for an example because that sticks with a hero...so Wasting Disease will target that hero now. Does Face of death discard an angel holding angels sword or not?
-
Why should PwD NOT be a disease? Not only does it have disease in the name, but it targets heroes for decrease. Diseases most often have decrease abilities. I do not see why PwD should be considered anything other than a disease.
I created a large discussion 2 years ago about this when the entries in the REG for Disease/Poison were worded much differently than they are today. There were several things written in the REG at the time that proved my point that PwD did not fit the definition. Subsequently, the REG was updated to make PwD fit the definition better. I somehow missed the fact that Wasting Disease and Palsy were added to the list. Diseases were never anything that did not decrease the abilities of cards in the past. Therefore, I do not know why the definition of disease was changed to simply allow a card that has "disease" in the name to be treated as such (Wasting Disease). I don't think a card title should make a card without a disease ability be classified the same as a card with a disease ability.
Kirk
-
It was changed because the overwhelming majority thought that a card with disease in the title that affected heroes should be a disease. The discussion has surely been purged by now.
-
It was changed because the overwhelming majority thought that a card with disease in the title that affected heroes should be a disease. The discussion has surely been purged by now.
I know that. It is still not a valid reason.
I did find this in the REG.
A poison or disease is a special ability that adds an ability to the card it targets. The gained ability is permanent, ongoing, and negative (from the perspective of the card targetted).
Wasting Disease and Plagued with Diseases are both temporary, not permament. They only take effect when the respective curses are active, compared to every other card with a disease ability that is actually permanent.
Kirk
-
Regardless of the "permanent" clause... PWD still decreases heroes AND has disease in the title. I think the argument for PwD being a disease is stronger than the your current argument.
-
Regardless of the "permanent" clause... PWD still decreases heroes AND has disease in the title. I think the argument for PwD being a disease is stronger than the your current argument.
I specifically said they made changes after my initial argument two years ago, so therefore it would be logical that there is a stronger argument now for PwD being a disease...
But you can't just throw out a clause in the REG like the permanent clause. Thankfully I know the disease section of the REG is redone and I read it at nationals. Therefore there is no real reason to discuss diseases until it releases.
Kirk
-
I'll be highly disapointed if PwD is taken out of the disease category when the REG is updated. Wasting disease I wouldnt mind as much, but PwD should rightfully be in there... :-\
-
I'll be highly disapointed if PwD is taken out of the disease category when the REG is updated. Wasting disease I wouldnt mind as much, but PwD should rightfully be in there... :-\
+1
-
i agree with lambo
-
I completely agree with Lambo (especially since it will hurt the Nuke deck that I'm trying to perfect).
-
Hey,
Face of Death refers to "diseased heroes." A "diseased hero" is a hero that has been targeted by a disease ability. A "diseased hero" is not a hero that has been targeted by an ability on a disease card. Wasting Disease has a prevent ability. Plagued with Disease has a decrease ability. Neither of them have a disease ability so neither of them create any diseased heroes.
So the REG lists Plagued with Disease and Wasting Disease as diseases, great. Have fun discarding them with Brass Serpent. It doesn't mean they work with your Face of Death combo.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Leprosy
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Pale Green • Ability: 2 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Selected Hero decreases 0/2 per turn. If Hero reaches */0 or less, discard Hero. Then Leprosy is placed on another hero in that territory and continues. • Play As: Selected Hero decreases 0/2 per turn. If Hero reaches */0 or less, discard Hero. If discarded, place Leprosy on another Hero in that territory. Disease is ongoing. • Identifiers: OT, Disease • Verse: II Kings 5:27 • Availability: Warriors booster packs (Common)
It appears Leprosy also has a decrease ability, but no disease ability. I think we can safely say that Faces of Death is a useless card.
-
Hey,
Face of Death refers to "diseased heroes." A "diseased hero" is a hero that has been targeted by a disease ability. A "diseased hero" is not a hero that has been targeted by an ability on a disease card. Wasting Disease has a prevent ability. Plagued with Disease has a decrease ability. Neither of them have a disease ability so neither of them create any diseased heroes.
So the REG lists Plagued with Disease and Wasting Disease as diseases, great. Have fun discarding them with Brass Serpent. It doesn't mean they work with your Face of Death combo.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
That quote is bogus. What is a "disease ability" then? ALL the decrease cards listed as diseases are decreases, not "diseases." Only four disease cards even SAY the word disease in their special ability.
Im going to call shenanigans on that quote. It needs to change, because it makes no sense at all. I target you with a disease card, you should be diseased. Period.
-
Hey,
What is a "disease ability" then?
From the new REG:
"A poison ability makes one or more characters 'poisoned.'"
"A poison ability is always followed by or paired with another ability that is not a poison ability but rather is a permanent ongoing ability. The ability that follows or is paired with the poison ability is treated as the effect of the poison."
"A disease functions exactly the same as a poison with the one exception that it makes the character 'diseased' rather than 'poisoned.'"
I target you with a disease card, you should be diseased. Period.
Cards don't have targets, abilities do. It's not the "disease card" that targets you it's the "disease ability."
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Say what?
"A poison ability is always followed by or paired with another ability that is not a poison ability but rather is a permanent ongoing ability. The ability that follows or is paired with the poison ability is treated as the effect of the poison."
Care to explain this part...? That is just plain confusing...
Only four cards in the game make heros diseased?
It's not the "disease card" that targets you it's the "disease ability."
I find that to be stupid. I have a card classified as a disease, why is its ability not considered a disease ability? Does a card that protects from evil cards not protect from CM, because it doesn't say "Treat as an evil card"? How can I protect myself from your card, when cards dont target?
I seriously think something needs to be fixed here.
-
I agree with Lambo, not only does the ruling not make sense, the sentences themselves do not make sense.
-
The "disease" classification (noun) is simply a vehicle for SAs that target diseases. A hero that is "diseased" (adjective) means that a "disease ability" (as defined by the REG/rulebook) has been applied to them. Since the title is the only thing that earns Wasting Disease the classification of disease, it is no more a "disease ability" than Captured Ark is a "capture ability," Place of Temptation is a "place ability," or "Drawn Out" is a "draw ability."
-
The "disease" classification (noun) is simply a vehicle for SAs that target diseases. A hero that is "diseased" (adjective) means that a "disease ability" (as defined by the REG/rulebook) has been applied to them. Since the title is the only thing that earns Wasting Disease the classification of disease, it is no more a "disease ability" than Captured Ark is a "capture ability," Place of Temptation is a "place ability," or "Drawn Out" is a "draw ability."
Well, then, I vote the REG should not be worded like the Tractatus- Philosophicus Logicus.
-
Well, then, I vote the REG should not be worded like the Tractatus- Philosophicus Logicus.
I would agree if I had any idea what that was or if I had time to look it up.
But I don't and I won't, so I can't.
-
Now those examples are pushing it a little...
Seriously though, I'm not here to debate if WD is a disease. It says currently in the REG that it is a disease, so I want to know what heroes become diseased.
Also,
"A hero that is "diseased" (adjective) means that an ability has been applied to them."
What ability? The ability of a card that has been labled a disease? I still want to hear a serious reason (other than that new REG quote which makes 0.4% sense) for why the ability of a disease card is not a disease ability?
Well, then, I vote the REG should not be worded like the Tractatus- Philosophicus Logicus.
Amen. So many new rulings get overly complicated for no reason.
-
Now those examples are pushing it a little...
I would argue that you are pushing it a little... ;)
What ability? The ability of a card that has been labled a disease? I still want to hear a serious reason (other than that new REG quote which makes 0.4% sense) for why the ability of a disease card is not a disease ability?
I would actually just go by the definition in the rulebook (p.43):
Disease is a special ability that is similar to a poison in that it weakens or restrains a character over a number of turns.
Wasting Disease does not weaken or restrain a hero since the hero with the ability being targeted can still enter battle at full strength.
-
Wasting Disease restrains their special abilities, does it not?
-
You're pushing it again.... ;)
"Restrain" means to restrain them from entering the Field of Battle (which is what the other non-decreasing diseases do).
-
Lol. For once in this debate, someone is providing me with a clear to understand and logical answer.
So, If what you are saying is true, then I guess I can agree that WD doesnt "disease" characters. PwD however should, unlike what Maly is saying.
-
I absolutely agree that PwD should be a disease with a disease ability. I was only talking about WD.
-
I know, and I totally understand the way you explained it. :)
-
I know, and I totally understand the way you explained it. :)
YMT should be promoted within the redemption community ::).
-
I think you guys are being a little harsh. Let me try to restate what Tim has stated. What Tim is trying to explain is true - (1) special abilities have targets (e.g., cards), (2) poison** is a special ability, and (3) the poison special ability is always linked to another special ability. Linking special abilities is nothing new - the special ability "set aside" is always tied to another special ability.
Poison is a special ability that does nothing more than classify a card into the catetory "poison". Think of poison as a special ability that writes an additional classification into the identifier area of the card (like we currently name categories like king, prophet, fought in earthly battle, etc...) Old cards don't have identifier areas, so explaining poison as "stamping a card" is valid. Notice that new card sets do (notice that the new orange Poison of Dragons card has the word "poison" in the identifier area already, noting explicitly what the poison special ability does). This is redundant for new cards, but that only helps new players understand more easily. When we created the category list called poison in the back of the REG, we listed cards that could be categorized as having a poison special ability. It could be debated that the list isn't perfect - perhaps Wasting Disease does not belong in this classification (even though it has the word "disease" in the title).
However, a poison special ability really doesn't "do" anything to the character - it simply places it into a category. It "marks" a card. The ability we (mistakenly) associated with a poison card is really not the poison special ability itself. The poison special ability that was originally always linked to it was increase/decrease ability (e.g., Boils, Poison, Bad Figs). This is no longer the case. We now link the poison SA with other special abilities (e.g., Lacking Sleep links the disease SA to play next enhancement, Judah's Sin links disease to ignore). What muddied the situation was adding cards to the REG category list that had "poison" or "disease" in the card name but didn't really follow the traditional poison special ability linked to a traditional linked special ability.
Wasting Disease is a difficult card to get a handle on. Perhaps we should not classify it as a poison, since it doesn't fit easily and it seems to cause more confusion than provide clarity. If we want to understand it and other cards yet to be printed, can we help each other understand how it can be classified and used as a poison or disease (or not)? Be more helpful.
Mike
** I will use the word "poison" but could just as easily make the same argument with the word "disease".
-
So would you say that any card that is the target of a "poison" card has been poisoned, with the same being true for diseases?
I agree WD could or could not "disease" heroes, but would you say that Plagued with Diseases still "diseases" the opponents heroes while they are being decreased?
-
I would agree that Plagued with Diseases (Decrease all opponents’ Heroes by 0/2 (or 0/3 if you have the fewest Redeemed Souls).) can be viewed as "stamping" or categorizing all opponent's Heroes as a disease, and linking the disease to the increase/decrease ability SA.
I would also say that a card categorized as a "disease" allows another SA that targets cards with the "disease" classification separately from those that target cards with a "poison" classification. This would be like targeting "all kings" vs. "all prophets". They are representing two separate categories of cards, based on how they are classified.
Does that make sense?
Mike
-
I would also say that a card categorized as a "disease" allows another SA that targets cards with the "disease" classification separately from those that target cards with a "poison" classification. This would be like targeting "all kings" vs. "all prophets". They are representing two separate categories of cards, based on how they are classified.
Are you basicly saying that a disease is not a poison and visa versa...? Sorry, but that long sentence hurt my brain. XD
-
Are you basicly saying that a disease is not a poison and visa versa...?
No, he is saying that all poisons come from Australia (as everbody knows).
-
Are you basicly saying that a disease is not a poison and visa versa...?
No, he is saying that all poisons come from Australia (as everbody knows).
Just like Kangaroos and Dingos...
Are you implying Kangaroos are master poisoners :o.
-
Just like Kangaroos and Dingos...
Are you implying Kangaroos are master poisoners :o.
You're trying to trick me into giving something away. It won't work. ;)
-
Sorry. That was a long sentence. Yes, I am saying they are separate from each other, just as kings and prophets are separate from each other. What I am not saying (since I haven't gone to see what the rulebook or REG says) is whether cards in different categories (poison or disease) are targeted at the same time.
As an aside, I keep track of the following separate categories: (1) poison, (2) disease, (3) sin, (4) plague, and (5) disaster. I believe they are targeted separately (but I don't say that with 100% surety).
Mike
-
.... (5) disaster. I believe they are targeted separately (but I don't say that with 100% surety).
Spoiler Alert!! ;D
-
I noticed that right away as well. ;D
*EDIT* we may already have some.
Deluge of Rain
Romans Destroy Jerusalem
Thrown into the Sea
the Trumpets
and more...
-
Hailstones is a disaster. I didn't spill any beans (yet).
Mike
-
Hey,
Rules get complicated so that they can be precise. They need to be precise because if they aren't precise they end up contradicting one another. The next REG is further along in the "being precise" aspect than it in the "being understandable" aspect. The understandability will improve with time.
When a character is targeted by a disease ability two things happen. (1) The character gains a temporary identifier "diseased." The identifier remains on the character until the character is healed or resets to face value. [this is what makes a diseased character healable and what is needed to make Face of Death affect the character] and (2) The character is affected by an ability that acts as "the effect of the disease." The classic example of "the effect of the disease" is a 0/2 decrease each turn. "The effect of the disease" can be a variety of different abilities but they all have two things in common, they always do something bad to the character and they always last as long as the "diseased" identifier lasts.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
The identifier remains on the character until the character is healed or resets to face value. [this is what makes a diseased character healable and what is needed to make Face of Death affect the character]
So, when PwD is active, you can indeed use a healing card to reset a hero to face value. Also, the effect remains while PwD is up, so do you feel that they can't gain the disease label during the time PwD is active?
-
Hey,
Does the decrease from Plagued with Disease last until the affected characters are healed or until Plagued with Disease is deactivated?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
Both?
PwD stops if you kill it with a healing card, OR stops if you deactivate it.
-
Hailstones is a disaster. I didn't spill any beans (yet).
Yes, but there are currently no SAs that target "disasters." ;)
The Weather Channel - Good Fortress
All evil disasters are negated. All good disasters cannot be negated. If Noah, Noah's Sons, or Jim Cantore are about to be discarded or removed from the game, place them here instead. Return them to territory after 40 days.
-
Hailstones is a disaster. I didn't spill any beans (yet).
Yes, but there are currently no SAs that target "disasters." ;)
The Weather Channel - Good Fortress
All evil disasters are negated. All good disasters cannot be negated. If Noah, Noah's Sons, or Jim Cantore are about to be discarded or removed from the game, place them here instead. Return them to territory after 40 days.
:rollin:
-
I don't believe a healing card targets PwD - it targets the characters targeted by PwD. A heal card would instantaneously take the 0/2 (or 0/3) away from the effected characters and PwD would instantaneously put the 0/2 (or 0/3) back.
Mike
-
I don't believe a healing card targets PwD - it targets the characters targeted by PwD. A heal card would instantaneously take the 0/2 (or 0/3) away from the effected characters and PwD would instantaneously put the 0/2 (or 0/3) back.
Mike
+1
-
Hey,
PwD stops ... if you deactivate it.
"The effect of the disease" can be a variety of different abilities but they all have two things in common, they always do something bad to the character and they always last as long as the "diseased" identifier lasts.
If Plagued with Disease stops when you deactivate it (and I agree that it does) then it can't be a disease ability because disease abilities always last as long as the "diseased" identifier lasts.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
It is very hard to believe though (and I think I agree with you) that a card with "plagued" and "disease" in the title is NOT a poison. I mean there are poisons you can recover from that weaken you for a time. But I guess the way to look at this is you can't go by the name necessarily. PwD is the same exact ability as Crown of Thorns and CoT is not a disease so why should PwD?
-
Jobs Three Friends decrease heroes "permanently" and are not a disease. Comparing similar abilities to determine if a card is a disease doesnt quite work IMO.
-
I guess you're right...I kinda said that without thinking of any other cards like that. Well I think that based on the name it needs to be a disease. If you are plagued with diseases then I think you are a pretty diseased person. Plagued with Diseases is similar to say, a bee sting. That is certainly a disease but it doesn't last forever. PwD is like that, it isn't a permanent disease but nonetheless definitely a disease. It is hard to say but like with DD this shouldn't be as complex as it is being made. I have been all over the map with this card but I have settled (after arguing with myself) that PwD is a disease/poison.
-
Whoo! I got out at a good time. :D
-
I am necroposting this thread because I eel this issue needs answering. If this comes up at my tournament, how should I rule it? Is Wasting Diseases a disease? Is PwD still a disease? I dislike ruling questions left up in the air, can anyone clear this up?