Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Smokey on October 11, 2009, 09:45:26 AM
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I'm sure this has been asked before but I can't find the thread or remember the conclusion...
If I Block with Wandering spirit and play Grapes on him with Tartaros in play, does he go to the bottom of my deck or into tartaros.
Wandering Spirit: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it's a demon put it in territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is discarded place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated.
Tartaros: All demons that holder captures, discards or has in Land of Bondage are placed in Tartaros. Release one demon to holder's territory from Tartaros when one of holder's demons wins a battle.
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Tartaros was already active before Wandering Spirit enters battle, so the demon goes to Tartaros, if you played Grapes. If your opponent plays Grapes, then the demon would go beneath deck.
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Because of WS's ability, WS is never discarded. He would be sent to the bottom of your draw pile and then, IF you had any other characters left in battle, get promptly shuffled. Tartaros doesn't get triggered because WS never hits the discard pile.
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One opinion from one side, one opinion from the other.
Hooray for nobody agreeing!
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One opinion from one side, one opinion from the other.
Hooray for nobody agreeing!
i dont agree ;)
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Although Tartaros was active first, I'm pretty sure Wandering Spirit's ability happens first. Mostly a hunch, but it could be the difference between "if your demon is discarded" and "all demons that holder discards."
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Tartaros was already active before Wandering Spirit enters battle, so the demon goes to Tartaros, if you played Grapes. If your opponent plays Grapes, then the demon would go beneath deck.
+1
Wandering Spirit is a replacement effect, so when you discard him, Wandering spirit tells you that instead of discarding him to place him on the bottom of your deck.
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er, thestrongangel, I think you just agreed with me?
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er, thestrongangel, I think you just agreed with me?
Right, not paying attention.
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Wandering Spirit is a replacement effect, so when you discard him, Wandering spirit tells you that instead of discarding him to place him on the bottom of your deck.
Aren't both WS and Tartaros "replacement effects"? One says that after it's discarded it's placed beneath deck, the other says after it's discarded it's placed in Tartaros. Wouldn't you just be able to choose which of the two effects you wanted to use?
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If two replacement effects are in conflict, the first active is followed. Tartaros was active first. YourMathTeacher was correct. You should have learned by now, your math teacher is ALWAYS correct. :)
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If two replacement effects are in conflict, the first active is followed.
Ah, yes; my bad. At least I was right about both being replacement effects :P
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If two replacement effects are in conflict, the first active is followed. Tartaros was active first. YourMathTeacher was correct. You should have learned by now, your math teacher is ALWAYS correct. :)
Have to take issue with this one. Only one ability is a replacement effect.
Tartaros is a conditional trigger ability, Wandering spirit is a replacement effect.
Tartaros says if you discard or capture a demon, place it here. So If you do A (capture or discard) then do B (place that card in Tartaros).
Wandering spirit says if a demon is discarded, place it on bottom of your deck instead. Key word is bolded. While WS's ability is active, a discard effect activated by you never truly discards the demon, but placed it on the bottom of your deck, while Tartaros only checks to see if you discarded or captured a demon, and if so then put on this fortress.
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Tartaros says if you discard or capture a demon, place it here. So If you do A (capture or discard) then do B (place that card in Tartaros).
Wandering spirit says if a demon is discarded, place it on bottom of your deck instead. Key word is bolded. While WS's ability is active, a discard effect activated by you never truly discards the demon, but placed it on the bottom of your deck, while Tartaros only checks to see if you discarded or captured a demon, and if so then put on this fortress.
If you're going to nitpick semantics.... Abilities always finish and complete and then they are redirected and/or negated as the case may be.
WS says if a demon is discarded it goes under the deck instead of the discard pile. The bolded confirms that it does indeed get discarded, it just goes to a different place afterwards. Same with Tartaros. Both cards activate when a card is discarded. Neither un-discards the card, they just change where it goes after it's discarded.
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Tartaros says if you discard or capture a demon, place it here. So If you do A (capture or discard) then do B (place that card in Tartaros).
Wandering spirit says if a demon is discarded, place it on bottom of your deck instead. Key word is bolded. While WS's ability is active, a discard effect activated by you never truly discards the demon, but placed it on the bottom of your deck, while Tartaros only checks to see if you discarded or captured a demon, and if so then put on this fortress.
If you're going to nitpick semantics, then so will I. WS says if a demon is discarded it goes under the deck instead of the discard pile. The bolded says that it does indeed get discarded, it just gets discarded to a different place. Both cards activate when a card is discarded. Neither un-discards the card, they just change where it goes after it's discarded.
Again, this is a confusing of two seperate and non-congruent effects.
WS says when being discarded, do this (place on bottom of deck) instead. Whereas Tartaros triggers from the act of being discarded, and the evil character is treated as a discarded EC all the way.
The hitch here comes when WS changes the outcome of the discarding effect. The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile. Therefore when Tartaros checks for discarded demons, it would find none, because the effect happening to the demon is no longer a discard effect.
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Again, this is a confusing of two seperate and non-congruent effects.
WS says when being discarded, do this (place on bottom of deck) instead. Whereas Tartaros triggers from the act of being discarded, and the evil character is treated as a discarded EC all the way.
The hitch here comes when WS changes the outcome of the discarding effect. The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile. Therefore when Tartaros checks for discarded demons, it would find none, because the effect happening to the demon is no longer a discard effect.
Tartaros and WS would both check simultaneously for discarded demons since they both have the same condition (a demon that is discarded). As such, Bryon's statement then comes in where whichever one was in play first gets to overrule the other(s) and do it's thing.
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The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile.
The ability is not being changed, just the destination. This is still a discard ability.
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Again, this is a confusing of two seperate and non-congruent effects.
WS says when being discarded, do this (place on bottom of deck) instead. Whereas Tartaros triggers from the act of being discarded, and the evil character is treated as a discarded EC all the way.
The hitch here comes when WS changes the outcome of the discarding effect. The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile. Therefore when Tartaros checks for discarded demons, it would find none, because the effect happening to the demon is no longer a discard effect.
Tartaros and WS would both check simultaneously for discarded demons since they both have the same condition (a demon that is discarded). As such, Bryon's statement then comes in where whichever one was in play first gets to overrule the other(s) and do it's thing.
Again, your ignoring the fact that WS changes the outcome of the battle. Tartaros says this: All demons that holder captures, discards, or has in Land of Bondage are placed in Tartaros. In order for the demon to go there, it must be discarded. WS sets up an ongoing effect that says any demon that is discarded get placed on the bottom of the deck instead. Granted, this only happens when WS is in battle. But simply put, when a discard ability is being completed against a demon with WS in battle, the discard effect never ends up discarding the demon. Tartaros says that a demon must be discarded.
WS says: If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. So, in essence this is what this looks like:
Normal situation: You discard a demon, demon goes to discard pile.
Tartaros in play: You discard a demon, it goes to your Tartaros.
WS in battle: You discard a demon, it goes beneath deck instead of being discarded.
Both WS and Tartaros: You play an ability to discard a demon. WS's effect changes the discard ability to place the demon beneath the deck. Because the demon was not ever discarded, the demon cannot be placed on Tartaros.
The status of being discarded is completely changed to the status of placed on the bottom of draw pile.
The ability is not being changed, just the destination. This is still a discard ability.
The discard ability is not changed, but the outcome is changed. Tartaros checks to see if a character was discarded, which it cannot be discarded until after an ability completes. WS is saying to do B (place beneath deck) instead of doing A (discard demon). Again, not that the ability affecting the demon is changed, but the outcome is changed. The demon is not discarded, but placed beneath deck when the discard ability is completed.
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For all intents and purposes, WS makes you move the demon from your discard pile to the bottom of your deck and Tartaros makes you move the demon from your discard pile to itself. It's still a discard, it still lets the discarding ability complete, it just moves it once the discard is complete. As such, the demon is discarded and the normal rule of whichever was out first then takes over to decide which card moves it where.
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Hey,
The only reason Wandering Spirit says instead and Tartaros doesn't is because Tartaros was printed before the playtesters started emphasizing the use of instead and Wandering Spirit was printed after. I agree with Bryon.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
The only reason Wandering Spirit says instead and Tartaros doesn't is because Tartaros was printed before the playtesters started emphasizing the use of instead and Wandering Spirit was printed after. I agree with Bryon.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Heh, I was just about to edit my post with this information, but you beat me to it :P
If Tartaros was printed with recent wording, it would probably say something like: "If holder discards or captures a demon, place it here instead" in which case thestrongangel's point about "instead" would be moot. They're the same kind of effect, so precedence is given to the one in play first.
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Hey,
The only reason Wandering Spirit says instead and Tartaros doesn't is because Tartaros was printed before the playtesters started emphasizing the use of instead and Wandering Spirit was printed after. I agree with Bryon.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
If that is the case, then it needs to have a play as wording. As it currently stands, how I have laid out the abilities is how it would go.
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If that is the case, then it needs to have a play as wording. As it currently stands, how I have laid out the abilities is how it would go.
I still disagree with that. There is nothing in their current wording that gives one precedence over the other. No SA "changes" another SA to something different (like you suggested with WS changing the "discard" into a "put beneath deck"), though some change what happens after. They both still have the exact same trigger.
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Hey,
Play As is never "needed" because it doesn't actually change anything, it just makes things easier to understand.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
Play As is never "needed" because it doesn't actually change anything, it just makes things easier to understand.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
I know this is not true, because of Zaccheus's ability. Originally it never was allowed to put a fortress in play, and yet its play as ability states that the fortress goes into play.
Also, cards like Enoch, which were originally affected by such things as Holy of Holies, are now not affected by them. So yes, a play as wording does change how a card is used.
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If that is the case, then it needs to have a play as wording. As it currently stands, how I have laid out the abilities is how it would go.
I still disagree with that. There is nothing in their current wording that gives one precedence over the other. No SA "changes" another SA to something different (like you suggested with WS changing the "discard" into a "put beneath deck"), though some change what happens after. They both still have the exact same trigger.
What I am trying to point out here is that simply put, the discard ability is not being changed, but its outcome is being changed as it is being completed.
Look at it this way. If a discard ability is played against a character, it becomes discarded. A discarded character would go to the discard pile, unless a card says to put it somewhere else, like Potters Field or Tartaros.
Wandering spirit is taking that ability a step further. When the discard ability is played, while the evil character is being discarded, it is instead changed to being placed on the bottom of the deck. The discard effect, while played as such, never ended up occuring because the replacement effect of Wandering Spirit changed the outcome of the ability, not what the ability was.
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Hey,
I know this is not true, because of Zaccheus's ability. Originally it never was allowed to put a fortress in play, and yet its play as ability states that the fortress goes into play.
Also, cards like Enoch, which were originally affected by such things as Holy of Holies, are now not affected by them. So yes, a play as wording does change how a card is used.
Zaccheus' play as is an error. Last I checked, Holy of Holies still affects Enoch.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Hey,
I know this is not true, because of Zaccheus's ability. Originally it never was allowed to put a fortress in play, and yet its play as ability states that the fortress goes into play.
Also, cards like Enoch, which were originally affected by such things as Holy of Holies, are now not affected by them. So yes, a play as wording does change how a card is used.
Zaccheus' play as is an error. Last I checked, Holy of Holies still affects Enoch.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Zaccheus's play as cannot be an error, as the default condition for any card that does not specify a destination is "in play".
Enoch's play as reads:
Enoch may be removed from the game, but is protected from being discarded.
Holy of Holies prevents the words interrupt, prevent and negate, not protect.
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A discard ability discards, there is no other outcome. Moving a card that was discarded is different than "changing the outcome" of the discard.
Anyways, it doesn't really matter because Tartaros does the same type of thing as WS, just with a different destination. As such, when you have conflicting abilities, whichever was in play first wins.
Zaccheus's play as cannot be an error, as the default condition for any card that does not specify a destination is "in play".
Enoch's play as reads:
Enoch may be removed from the game, but is protected from being discarded.
Holy of Holies prevents the words interrupt, prevent and negate, not protect.
I've always played Zaccheus as adding it to the hand, not the territory. When nothing is specified, you default to game rules. Game rules say you cannot place fortresses during the battle phase, so it goes to your hand.
Also, Holy of Holies targets the effects not the words.
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A discard ability discards, there is no other outcome. Moving a card that was discarded is different than "changing the outcome" of the discard.
Anyways, it doesn't really matter because Tartaros does the same type of thing as WS, just with a different destination. As such, when you have conflicting abilities, whichever was in play first wins.
Again, they are not the same ability, as there is not even a classification of abilities for replacement effects in the REG.
A discard ability discards, there is no other outcome. Moving a card that was discarded is different than "changing the outcome" of the discard.
No arguement that a discard ability discards, however, on the completion of the effect, the discard effect is not discarding the Wandering spirit, it is placing it beneath draw pile instead of discarding it. Tartaros says you place a demon you discarded on it. They are two seperate effects.
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No arguement that a discard ability discards, however, on the completion of the effect, the discard effect is not discarding the Wandering spirit, it is placing it beneath draw pile instead of discarding it. Tartaros says you place a demon you discarded on it. They are two seperate effects.
Yes, they are two separate abilities. However, they share the same trigger: a discarded demon. Regardless of what each individual one does once the trigger is pulled, they both do something to the card that triggered them, thus they both can't complete on the same trigger card. Neither card by itself has initiative (lol) over the other, which is why we default to the rule I've said at least half a dozen times now.
WS completes if WS was out first, and Tartaros completes if Tartaros was out first. End of story.
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No arguement that a discard ability discards, however, on the completion of the effect, the discard effect is not discarding the Wandering spirit, it is placing it beneath draw pile instead of discarding it. Tartaros says you place a demon you discarded on it. They are two seperate effects.
Yes, they are two separate abilities. However, they share the same trigger: a discarded demon. Regardless of what each individual one does once the trigger is pulled, they both do something to the card that triggered them, thus they both can't complete on the same trigger card. Neither card by itself has initiative (lol) over the other, which is why we default to the rule I've said at least half a dozen times now.
WS completes if WS was out first, and Tartaros completes if Tartaros was out first. End of story.
It's whos SA was active first, not who was in play first correct?
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It's whos SA was active first, not who was in play first correct?
I believe so, yes. So, if you have WS out, but not in battle, and play Tartaros, Tartaros would become the one you default to.
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thestrongangel, careful. You're against people who KNOW what they're talking about.
You are right that a play as can affect a card's ability. And I think you are right on Enoch.
You are wrong to say that cards default to in play. Special abilities that target cards default to in play. Search cards default to hand.
You are wrong with the topic of this discussion. Sorry. Kerith Revine refers to itself as a site and a fortress, so can you not discard it with a card that does either, since it's 'both?' No, cards change and how we word things change. Bryon might have designed these cards, as he is the top playtester, so he knows best what cards wording really does. They are worded differently, yes, but they do the same thing because they are only worded differently because Tartaros is old (but still awesome).
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thestrongangel, careful. You're against people who KNOW what they're talking about.
I am not going to defend my credentials or my experience with playing redemption. Believe me, I played back in the days when it was a tournament to tournament basis wether or not CotH or KoT negated the other's ability.
The problem here is that we are dealing with two abilities that are worded to work completely differently, and yet everyone seems to think that they are exactly the same.
Tartaros is a card that holds demons that its holder discards or captures. Whenever a demon is successfully discarded or captured, it goes into that fortress. It is very similar to the effect of Potter's Field. If you will note, a discarded demon on Tartaros is considered a discarded demon, just like a discarded hero on Potter's Field is considered a discarded hero.
The wording of the effect on Wandering Spirit, and implies working in a different manner. What it has is not a triggered ability, but a replacement ability. The difference is Tartaros says if A happens, then do B. Wandering Spirit says that if A is going to happen, instead of A happening, B happens.
In order for a demon to make it into Tartaros, it must be discarded. Wandering Spirit's ability is worded so as to say if a demon is about to be discarded, it is instead placed on the bottom of the deck. This is the critical difference. Wandering Spirit's ability never allows for the demon to be discarded, as the effect is changed when the discard ability is completed. Therefore Tartaros never triggers, and the demon goes to the bottom of the deck.
Please understand, I don't mind being a lone voice here, but do take exception to the fact that people mistake my making the arguement for simple ignorance.
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The wording of the effect on Wandering Spirit, and implies working in a different manner. What it has is not a triggered ability, but a replacement ability. The difference is Tartaros says if A happens, then do B. Wandering Spirit says that if A is going to happen, instead of A happening, B happens.
The playtesters already posted that Tartaros should be treated as an "instead" ability. Wandering Spirit doesn't say "if A is going to happen" at all, just the "instead of A happening, B happens."
Both, therefore, say, "If A happens, do B." As Bryon said, that results in Tartaros winning out.
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Hey,
I know this is not true, because of Zaccheus's ability. Originally it never was allowed to put a fortress in play, and yet its play as ability states that the fortress goes into play.
Also, cards like Enoch, which were originally affected by such things as Holy of Holies, are now not affected by them. So yes, a play as wording does change how a card is used.
Zaccheus' play as is an error. Last I checked, Holy of Holies still affects Enoch.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Zaccheus's play as cannot be an error, as the default condition for any card that does not specify a destination is "in play".
Enoch's play as reads:
Enoch may be removed from the game, but is protected from being discarded.
Holy of Holies prevents the words interrupt, prevent and negate, not protect.
You misunderstood what SirNobody was saying. Zaccheus does not put the fortress in play. He puts it in hand, since that is the default. The word in the Zaccheus "play as" should be "hand." It is a typo. That is the error SirNobody was talking about.
As for Enoch, the word "prevented" is still on his card, so Holy of Holies still stops that part of his ability. The "play as" just explains what "prevented from being discarded" means, since it is very confusing wording. But, as SirNobody said, that does not change what the card does.
"Play as" is ONLY for clarification, such as when two viable interpretations of an ability exist, or when old wording is confusing. If you want to change what the card does, or add a restriction (see Holy of Holies), then it requires Errata.
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There is no "going to happen" about WS's ability. It says if your demon IS discarded, not if your demon is ABOUT TO BE discarded. As such, it is the same as Tartaros.
The playtesters already posted that Tartaros should be treated as an "instead" ability. Wandering Spirit doesn't say "if A is going to happen" at all, just the "instead of A happening, B happens."
Both, therefore, say, "If A happens, do B." As Bryon said, that results in Tartaros winning out.
I've been trying to explain this to him for the last 2 pages or so :P
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Oh yeah... I was thinking of errata. lol ;D ;D ::) ::)
Playing the game for a long time and talking to the people who made the cards are different. They are telling you HOW to play that card; it does sound like a different ability, but it's not. It's just worded confusingly.