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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Korunks on December 04, 2010, 10:35:06 PM
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My opponent makes a rescue attempt with a purple hero. I block with wandering spirit banded to another generic demon. I also have some Demons in my territory. My opponent plays AoCP. Which Demons go below the deck? Just Wandering Spirit and the one it banded to, or all of them in play? The wording was contested at my tourney today.
Wandering Spirit (TP)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 3 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, put it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. • Play As: Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a demon, place it in your territory. May band to a generic demon. If your demon is being discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Luke 11:24 • Availability: Thesaurus ex Preteritus booster packs ()
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All of them.
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All of them.
i concur
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All of them.
Citation please?
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If you're asking a question it's because you want confirmation. You have access to all the "citation finding" tools we do. That's just how the card is worded, "your demon" means "your demon."
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Let me play the uninformed one then...where do we have another ruling that is similar to this that Your anything includes more than the card it is printed on? I will concur with demons in battle, but territory also? Was that the intent of the card?
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Your (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_your.htm)
Several cards in Redemption® refer to cards that are “your” cards (e.g., your Priest, your Heroes, your demons, your warrior-class Evil Character, ). The possession and control of a card is implied by the use of the word “your”.[/your]
If possession is confusing I've also heard is defined as ownership. In the case of Wandering Spirit, all demons that you own and control are legal targets. Since abilities target cards in play (unless they say otherwise) Wandering Spirit would target all your demons in battle and territory.
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If that is the case....why wasn't demons plural instead of singular? That is my hang-up about the ruling...
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If that is the case....why wasn't demons plural instead of singular? That is my hang-up about the ruling...
if u were going for pinpoint accuracy it should have been
Demon(s)
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- follow-up question...
So if Peter were reprinted to say While in play your disciple could not be discarded, then all 10 of the other disciples in my territory could not be discarded if Peter goes into battle, correct?
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Peter:
Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a disciple, put it in your territory. May band to a disciple. If your disciple is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated.
:P
then yes
basically... "your"="any of your ____s"
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If that is the case....why wasn't demons plural instead of singular? That is my hang-up about the ruling...
I would rule that it's continuously checking the status of each of your demons, and if it is discarded, then the SA kicks in.
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You have Demon A, Demon B and Demon C sitting in front of you.
You also have a card that says if your demon is discarded, take this action.
1a). is Demon A a demon?
1b). is it yours?
1c). is it being discarded?
2a). is Demon B a demon?
2b). is it yours?
2c). is it being discarded?
3a). is Demon C a demon?
3b). is it yours?
3c). is it being discarded?
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Peter:
Reveal the bottom card of deck. If it is a disciple, put it in your territory. May band to a disciple. If your disciple is discarded, place it beneath deck instead. Cannot be negated.
:P
then yes
basically... "your"="any of your ____s"
Now there's a card I'd want. Plus he can use TGT!
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shaef, where were you on saturday to rule this my way? i would have won the tourney!!!!! techno and korunks, said that it referred to demons in battle. they said it didn't so as a result my d got wiped
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shaef, where were you on saturday to rule this my way? i would have won the tourney!!!!! techno and korunks, said that it referred to demons in battle. they said it didn't so as a result my d got wiped
I said that it would work this way but i got outruled...i would have been fine either way but i prefer the way it should work....
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shaef, where were you on saturday to rule this my way? i would have won the tourney!!!!! techno and korunks, said that it referred to demons in battle. they said it didn't so as a result my d got wiped
Well, that what happens at a tournament. The judge has to make the best call that they can. I am human, I make mistakes. I already spend hours upon hours on these forums reading the latest rulings because the REG cannot be trusted to have accurate information.
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Now, without being a jerk, this is really dumb.
I'm honestly getting really tired of inconsistencies. Sometimes we play this huge semantics game and have to take everything literally. Then, we take something literally, and "oh no, that's not how that works." Can we get something uniform? The elders system was supposed to fix this, but that concept doesn't work when only 2-4 of them are talking.
/rant end.
Also, to respond to Shawn's comment, the ruling was Brad and I's fault, not his.
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No I was involved too, I share some of the blame. But if every mistake I make is going to be called out on the forums its going to seriously dampen my desire to host. In almost 2 years of hosting I have had 2 bad calls and both get posted on the boards. Is this normal or am I just unlucky?
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No I was involved too, I share some of the blame. But if every mistake I make is going to be called out on the forums its going to seriously dampen my desire to host. In almost 2 years of hosting I have had 2 bad calls and both get posted on the boards. Is this normal or am I just unlucky?
I'm pretty sure it's normal. I've seen plenty of judging errors posted on the boards, especially when it comes to deciding games for tournaments. Errors happen, and just like in football, occasionally judges make bad calls that cost you/your favorite team a tournament/2010 NFC Championship game. Don't feel bad about it. I just ran my first tournament yesterday, and while I had the luxury of another elder (my brother) and several other experienced players for ruling questions, it still wasn't easy to make rulings on top of the many other things going on.
To everyone else, please remember to be gracious to hosts/judges, even when they make mistakes/incorrect rulings. Unlike NFL referees, who I believe it can be perfectly within our rights as Christians to despise*, hosts don't make a ton of money and the only real motivation for them to host is because they love the game and the fellowship it provides. Without them, tournaments cannot exist. I believe that judges should try to be as informed on current rulings as they can, but they also have to make rulings that can't be strongly supported one way or another, and they might end up being wrong. But they are the judges, and thus whatever they say goes. That's part and parcel of playing in a tournament.
*I don't really think that. It is unchristian to hate referees. But they still deserve it sometimes...
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I would like to say sorry in front of everyone to TechnoEthicist and Korunks. I caused distention among brothers and that is not my heart or my intentions in any way, shape, or form. In my previous post, I acted immature and angry. That is not what God wants. I don't want heat or anything like that. I am very sorry for how rude and disrespectful I was to the judges.
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This does highlight, yet again, the utterly ridiculous state Redemption is in right now. I know some people get all huffy when I talk about the REG not being reliable, and they come back with "99% of the REG is correct..." Well, that's not nearly good enough. If a ruling document is not 100% correct it's less than zero percent correct. The whole point of the REG is to have an official document to refer to so that bad rulings don't happen, happen with less frequency, or can be diverted by a simple search of an online document.
I understand that there's a new REG coming out some time, but sorry, the grace period for that ended when we went through an entire season with no reliable ruling document and are four months into the next one with still nothing. It wouldn't be as bad if the current REG were still being maintained and fixed every time another error is found (something that would be easy if it weren't such a stupid setup where only one person in the world can access it). But we've got elders disagreeing, absolutely NO official definition for something as simple as "play," no clarification on blocks, successful rescue, defeats, etc. and we're rapidly approaching another tournament season.
Whatever is taking so long with the new REG, it's not a good enough reason. We need a rules document.
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No I was involved too, I share some of the blame. But if every mistake I make is going to be called out on the forums its going to seriously dampen my desire to host. In almost 2 years of hosting I have had 2 bad calls and both get posted on the boards. Is this normal or am I just unlucky?
It happens like that sometimes. Nobody is upset. A judgment call was made. Don't let something this little make you not want to host again...I don't wanna be the only host in this state.... :o ::) lol
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It happens like that sometimes. Nobody is upset. A judgment call was made. Don't let something this little make you not want to host again...I don't wanna be the only host in this state.... Shocked Roll Eyes lol
I said it would dampen my desire not eliminate it. I am far to stubborn to give up on hosting that easily. I apologize if my tone was harsh. It was late, I was grumpy, and then I came to the ruling sections and saw this and my head went *boom*. Its all good I don't think anymore needs to be said about it.
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This does highlight, yet again, the utterly ridiculous state Redemption is in right now. I know some people get all huffy when I talk about the REG not being reliable, and they come back with "99% of the REG is correct..." Well, that's not nearly good enough. If a ruling document is not 100% correct it's less than zero percent correct. The whole point of the REG is to have an official document to refer to so that bad rulings don't happen, happen with less frequency, or can be diverted by a simple search of an online document.
I understand that there's a new REG coming out some time, but sorry, the grace period for that ended when we went through an entire season with no reliable ruling document and are four months into the next one with still nothing. It wouldn't be as bad if the current REG were still being maintained and fixed every time another error is found (something that would be easy if it weren't such a stupid setup where only one person in the world can access it). But we've got elders disagreeing, absolutely NO official definition for something as simple as "play," no clarification on blocks, successful rescue, defeats, etc. and we're rapidly approaching another tournament season.
Whatever is taking so long with the new REG, it's not a good enough reason. We need a rules document.
Keep in mind that the system is being run by a bunch of volunteers. You get what you pay for.
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It happens like that sometimes. Nobody is upset. A judgment call was made. Don't let something this little make you not want to host again...I don't wanna be the only host in this state.... Shocked Roll Eyes lol
I said it would dampen my desire not eliminate it. I am far to stubborn to give up on hosting that easily. I apologize if my tone was harsh. It was late, I was grumpy, and then I came to the ruling sections and saw this and my head went *boom*. Its all good I don't think anymore needs to be said about it.
Wanna hear a star wars joke?
who da man?
yo-da man
*insert laughter here* lol
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It happens like that sometimes. Nobody is upset. A judgment call was made. Don't let something this little make you not want to host again...I don't wanna be the only host in this state.... Shocked Roll Eyes lol
I said it would dampen my desire not eliminate it. I am far to stubborn to give up on hosting that easily. I apologize if my tone was harsh. It was late, I was grumpy, and then I came to the ruling sections and saw this and my head went *boom*. Its all good I don't think anymore needs to be said about it.
Wanna hear a star wars joke?
who da man?
yo-da man
*insert laughter here* lol
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nuevavida-cn.net%2Fforums%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fstar-wars-smiley-023.gif&hash=43d06b9c26888b921524fad14827be2901b56cf4)
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Keep in mind that the system is being run by one or two volunteers. You get what you pay for.
Fixed. Therein lies the problem, methinks.
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Keep in mind that the system is being run by one or two volunteers. You get what you pay for.
Fixed. Therein lies the problem, methinks.
And nobody else is allowed to help either... I've asked before.
I propose an idea:
Would it be possible for Rob or someone to appoint some experienced players to make approved edits in the current REG, to keep that updated until the New REG comes out?
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Keep in mind that the system is being run by one or two volunteers. You get what you pay for.
Fixed. Therein lies the problem, methinks.
Er, we've got more than one or two elders. They're part of the "system" your whole text wall was about.
And nobody else is allowed to help either... I've asked before.
Wonderful.
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Keep in mind that the system is being run by one or two volunteers. You get what you pay for.
Fixed. Therein lies the problem, methinks.
Er, we've got more than one or two elders. They're part of the "system" your whole text wall was about.
Elders do not all have the power to modify the REG as far as I know, just a smaller group is able to.
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The problem is Berkenpas set up the REG so literally nobody else can access it. Literally only his computer can even attempt to edit the REG. Good for preventing it from being hacked, bad for efficiency.
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And who would want to hack the REG maliciously?
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And who would want to hack the REG maliciously?
Ring Wraith, so his combo decks work again... ::)
;)
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I'm honestly getting really tired of inconsistencies. Sometimes we play this huge semantics game and have to take everything literally. Then, we take something literally, and "oh no, that's not how that works." Can we get something uniform? The elders system was supposed to fix this, but that concept doesn't work when only 2-4 of them are talking.
I don't really think there's a great leap that needs to be made to apply the standard default target of cards in play for this scenario. The ability does not say "in battle" and there are plenty of other cards that don't say "in battle" which people (correctly) use to target cards just about anywhere in play. I don't understand how the system failed in this case.
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And who would want to hack the REG maliciously?
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
NOW WITH MY HACKING SKILLS, I CAN MAKE ANB AND SPLIT ALTAR SENSIBLE, EASY-TO-UNDERSTAND CARDS!!!!!!!
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Can we get something uniform? The elders system was supposed to fix this, but that concept doesn't work when only 2-4 of them are talking.
Actually the system is working. 2 elders (Gabe and Schaef) both posted on this thread and indicated that Wandering Spirit DOES target all "your" demons in battle and in territory. I also agree with them. That is a clear and concise ruling, and is exactly what the elder system is designed to give you.
As for all the comments about wanting a more accurate REG, I completely agree that it would be wonderful. When I first became an Elder, I tried to push on this some. Since then I regret to admit that I have somewhat given in to the malaise that it'll never finish. However, I will go back and try to push again. I apologize that we don't have an accurate and authoritative source that is written down and that hosts can use to make rulings. Apparently the info was there on this specific ruling, but I understand people not bothering to even look these days when so much of it has changed.
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I'm honestly getting really tired of inconsistencies. Sometimes we play this huge semantics game and have to take everything literally. Then, we take something literally, and "oh no, that's not how that works." Can we get something uniform? The elders system was supposed to fix this, but that concept doesn't work when only 2-4 of them are talking.
I would never claim that all Redemption rulings are perfect, but this particular ruling is definitely consistent with the concept that abilities default to "in play" when seeking targets. It's simply a matter of realizing that "Discard a demon" = "Discard a demon [in play]" or "If your demon is discarded put it beneath deck instead" = If your demon [in play] is discarded put it beneath deck instead." Ruling it otherwise would be the inconsistent thing.
As for the Elders comment, Bryon, Schaef, Gabe, Prof U, Prof A and myself are fairly regular posters in this section, and several other Elders give input on the playtester side of the forum.
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Frankly, those people who just comment on the playtester board should be commenting where everyone can see.
I'm really not trying to be a jerk. I'm just incredibly tired of every tournament I go to having some discussion that is not directly addressed anywhere. Then, when I make a judgment call based on prior knowledge and what I assume to be common sense, and end up being wrong. I understand the concept of your. But it really should be written "Demon(s)" because of every other semantics argument we have. If things can be worded one way and interpreted another, then why couldn't we assume Split Altar meant to say what it was meant to do instead of making it the most useless National Promo known to man?
It's not working because of what Lambo said. It's controlled by one or two people, the game is how they want it, the new sets and new cards are planned out ahead of time by one or two people and there is little to no variation on it. The REG is incredibly out of date, has an offline version that's way too old to be useful, and there's nothing being done about it. Not all churches have internet access; where Korunks hosts is one of those churches. We can't look up things on the REG because it's not compatible on a Blackberry and it's so outdated it doesn't matter. I should not have to spend hours a week reading a forum in order to figure out rulings. I love you guys, but really, I'd rather read something more interesting than ruling arguments.
Listen, I hope I didn't come off as offensive, I just think that things are not as they should be with the game in general.... maybe I shouldn't be saying these things on a public forum, but I just wanted to throw my opinion out there...