Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Arch Angel on July 26, 2009, 09:31:18 PM
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Alright, so a recent ruling was passed by Rob as to the definition of "Use" on artifacts.
Used = activated
Since this is the case, does Unholy Writ get discard after 1 round of being active, rather than after 1 capture? The wording on the two cards is practically the same.
Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use.
Assyria's Tribute
Type: Artifact • Brigade: • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: While you are blocking with an Assyrian, negate all special abilities on Enhancements and Heroes. Cannot be negated during the battle phase. May be used twice per game.
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After you "activate" Writ and capture, it is instantly discarded.
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A human hero in battle MAY be taken prisoner.
-I believe the place of 'may' in Unholy Writ allows it to work the way it always has.
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Key Word: When holder chooses. It has a clause defining a special use for this artifact.
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Ah, but that's not what Rob said. Rob said that Activating an Artifact constitutes using it. The Capture is the SA on Writ, but as demonstrated on Assyrian Tribute a "use" can be used up without ever activating the ability.
A human hero in battle MAY be taken prisoner.
-I believe the place of 'may' in Unholy Writ allows it to work the way it always has.
In the Play as, "may" has been removed.
Key Word: When holder chooses. It has a clause defining a special use for this artifact.
AT has the clarifier "When you Block with an Assyrian" and yet it's used up simply by being activated.
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It's clarifier isn't really a clarifier. It is stating that if your using an Assyrian, you negate such and such. It may be active twice per game. Unholy Writ says Capture a Hero in battle. You can use this once per copy of Unholy Writ. After you capture a hero, discard this card.
Leats, that's how I see it.
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Unholy Writ says Capture a Hero in battle. You can use this once per copy of Unholy Writ. After you capture a hero, discard this card.
If UW gets an Errata/different Play as then I'd agree with you. But as it stands it seems that the working ruling of UW clashes with the ruling of AT. Seeing as AT is the most recent, I'm more inclined to go with it.
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I think we need to avoid the witch hunts every time a ruling comes down.
UW is more like Covenant of Noah.
Assyrian Tribute is more like Ark of the Covenant.
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I think we need to avoid the witch hunts every time a ruling comes down.
No. We must follow Salem's example.
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This isn't a witch hunt. UW is a commonly used card and the ruling was recent, so I brought this up because I thought about it xP
Though, now that you mention it, YMT, Cov of Noah is also worded this way, and should be ruled the same way.
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Thanks YMT. Isn't it your fault he's playing and thus your fault he's ruining staple artifacts? :P
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Thanks Tim. Isn't it your fault he's playing and thus your fault he's ruining staple artifacts? :P
If you're talking to me, then it's Mr. Tim. As for Russell, he was playing long before I arrived in CT. That's why he swept all my tournaments with his speed deck. My students were still using Goliath.
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You've taken what Rob said out of context to create a fallacious arguement. I'll quote his exact statement so you can read it again carefully and see that it doesn't change anything about how Unholy Writ has been or will be played:
Artifacts (or covenants or curses used as artifacts) that have instant abilities that are not optional and do not specify a delayed trigger must be applied upon activation. Artifacts (or covenants or curses used as artifacts) that have instant abilities that are optional can be applied at any time their owner chooses so long as that time satisfies any other existing requirements.
I agree. In other words, these are not "on demand" but must be use during the Prep Phase that the artifact was activated or remained activated. Even so, I think anytime during the Prep Phase is okay. I.E. I change my face up artifact, go on to something else and then come back to it prior to starting my battle.
Also, the rulebook states:
Some artifacts, covenants, or curses have a limited number of times you can use them. When these come to an end, you must discard them immediately. Once such an artifact, covenant, or curse is activated, it must be counted as having been used. This is true even if other events duplicate the effect of the artifact, covenant, or curse during the turn.
This is one reason such artifacts are not "on demand" but must be used when activated.
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First, Gabe, I didn't misquote him. If you click the link in my post you'll see it's a direct quote from a different thread than you're quoting. Second, from what I'm seeing that supports my argument. Use = Activate.
And er, yea. >.>; I did kinda do that didn't I, YMT? :/ Sorry about that.
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Oh. Man. I messed up my sources Mr. Tim :'( Please don't fail me! :)
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Rob's quote in the original post may have been responding to the question that was asked (about AT), rather than a general rule. Only he can say what exactly it meant.
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First, Gabe, I didn't misquote him.
That's correct, you didn't. You've taken this accurate quote out of context. Rob's statement of Used = Activated pertains directly to the question about Assyria's Tribute. It has nothing to do with "on demand" or "optional use" Artifacts like Unholy Writ.
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Why shouldn't it? According to the rulebook activating limited use Arts counts as using them.
Perhaps UW and Cov/Noah and friends have just been being played wrong, like Angel's Sword.
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First, Gabe, I didn't misquote him. If you click the link in my post you'll see it's a direct quote from a different thread than you're quoting.
Maybe you didnt misquote him, But you definitely did not understand what he was saying. The Key explanation is in Tim Maly's Quote above Rob's quote. UW is an optional/delayed trigger. It cannot be used unless someone is in battle so merely having it activated cannot cause it to be used. Furtheremore, UW is an optional (it has the "may" in the title). AT is not optional and activating it does use it up. I dont like the idea that I can be "blocking" without actually presenting a character in battle, but just having it up does have an effect on whether someone makes a RA that turn. So in some ways it is more similar to Burial Shroud than anything else.
Artifacts (or covenants or curses used as artifacts) that have instant abilities that are not optional and do not specify a delayed trigger must be applied upon activation. Artifacts (or covenants or curses used as artifacts) that have instant abilities that are optional can be applied at any time their owner chooses so long as that time satisfies any other existing requirements.
I agree. In other words, these are not "on demand" but must be use during the Prep Phase that the artifact was activated or remained activated. Even so, I think anytime during the Prep Phase is okay. I.E. I change my face up artifact, go on to something else and then come back to it prior to starting my battle.
Also, the rulebook states:
Some artifacts, covenants, or curses have a limited number of times you can use them. When these come to an end, you must discard them immediately. Once such an artifact, covenant, or curse is activated, it must be counted as having been used. This is true even if other events duplicate the effect of the artifact, covenant, or curse during the turn.
This is one reason such artifacts are not "on demand" but must be used when activated.
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Here's the direct quote from the Rulebook.
Some artifacts, covenants, or curses have a limited number of times you can use them. When these come to an end, you must discard them immediately. Once such an artifact, covenant, or curse is activated, it must be counted as having been used.
Emphasis by myself.
According to that, cards with limited uses (like UW) MUST count as being used once activated.
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but just having it up does have an effect on whether someone makes a RA that turn. So in some ways it is more similar to Burial Shroud than anything else.
I can't tell you how many times I've been stalled by Unholy Writ because I had no banding and no way to deal with that artifact.
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Here's the direct quote from the Rulebook.
Some artifacts, covenants, or curses have a limited number of times you can use them. When these come to an end, you must discard them immediately. Once such an artifact, covenant, or curse is activated, it must be counted as having been used.
Emphasis by myself.
According to that, cards with limited uses (like UW) MUST count as being used once activated. Once they are used
Fixed your quote for you ;)
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I don't see how you fixed anything. What I said is compliant with the Rulebook. Activating it counts as "using" it, then once it come to my turn again, It's been "used" one time, so it must be discarded.
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In all fairness, the McDonald's Angel is taking Rob's quote in context. The "Play As" may simply need to be deleted. The original wording of UW, along with Rob's quote, would let UW stay as-is. The "Play As" leaves the possibilty of it being interpreted as a "delayed trigger" ("When holder chooses") of a "non-optional instant ability (Capture)."
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but just having it up does have an effect on whether someone makes a RA that turn. So in some ways it is more similar to Burial Shroud than anything else.
I can't tell you how many times I've been stalled by Unholy Writ because I had no banding and no way to deal with that artifact.
Sacrifical lambs.
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but just having it up does have an effect on whether someone makes a RA that turn. So in some ways it is more similar to Burial Shroud than anything else.
I can't tell you how many times I've been stalled by Unholy Writ because I had no banding and no way to deal with that artifact.
Sacrifical lambs.
Yeah. pretty much. That an I Am Redemption is how I deal with it unless I have banding. :-\
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I sacrifice the least useful character and hope they use it.
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I use Covenant of Palestine.
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Meh, I know I can throw I am Redemption in but... Combo decks hate Unholy Writ.
Also, those of you saying you can waste a RA to eat up UW... why not waste two to eat up AT? Same deal isnt it?
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Also, those of you saying you can waste a RA to eat up UW... why not waste two to eat up AT? Same deal isnt it?
1 =/= 2
Remember the thread about games being over in 5 turns..... ;)
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I don't care about AT because I use cmobo decks or decks that can not be negated. That's right, the whole deck, as a whole, can not be negated. ;)
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Still. You all say "noooo way, AT can totally change how you play" when UW can stall an opponent for a while if they arent prepared for it as well.
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Also, those of you saying you can waste a RA to eat up UW... why not waste two to eat up AT? Same deal isnt it?
1 =/= 2
Remember the thread about games being over in 5 turns..... ;)
1 =/= 2-1 either, the -1 being the condition of AT (must block with an Assyrian) anyone can use UW in a deck, only Assyrian decks use AT
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Stop arguing logic. This game's rules are based on how I want it to so I can win.
;)
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1 =/= 2-1 either, the -1 being the condition of AT (must block with an Assyrian) anyone can use UW in a deck, only Assyrian decks use AT
I'm assuming that you are using TI Graphing Calculator script, which reads 2-1 as "two times negative one," which I agree does not equal one.
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1 =/= 2-1 either, the -1 being the condition of AT (must block with an Assyrian) anyone can use UW in a deck, only Assyrian decks use AT
I'm assuming that you are using TI Graphing Calculator script, which reads 2-1 as "two times negative one," which I agree does not equal one.
Exactly, I used AT -2 times before you used unholy writ... ;D
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In all seriousness, I fought for consistancy with Angels Sword, and the consistancy bat symbol just went up... so I'll fight again.
The Rulebook clearly states, that when an artifact is ACTIVE, it must be counted as having been used.
Unholy Writ says discard after one use. What is there that is stopping it from dying after one use? Both AT and UW have a trigger of some sort (Block with an assyrian, when holder chooses)... but apparently that trigger doesnt mean squat for AT. It can die if you never ONCE get to block with an assyrian. Whats so different about UW that it gets to wait for you to choose to use it?
*EDIT* typo fix.
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Wait...Lambo and Arch Angel, are you arguing that the "discard after use" applies to its activation but not the action of capturing? In other words, if your correct, then I could active UW in multiplayer and have it active for a whole round, capturing as many heroes as I want, because the "use" condition applies to the activation and not the capture. Is that correct? Or am I missing something?
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No, your right in what they want.
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I am going by what the rulebook and REG say. I did not argue against AS because I wanted it weaker, I argued because the way that card worked just wasnt functional and inconsistant.
Same here, One card is ruled to die because it says "use," so why not all other cards that are worded in the same way?
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The Rulebook clearly states, that when an artifact is ACTIVE, it must be counted as having been used.
The rulebook clearly states that.... for "limited use" artifacts, which Rob clarified in the post quoted earlier. UW is not a "limited use" artifact. The phrase "discard after use" is one of those "clarifying text" thingies that have since been done away with. An artifact that says "May be used twice" is a "limited use artifact."
The issue at hand is that UW's "Play As" becomes muddled with present rulings, so it should just be dropped. It is still not a "May be used twice" artifact, so there is no reason to treat it as one.
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And yea, assuming this passes you could. Good thing it's limited to "In Battle" right?
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Hmm...I can see the following combo being useful.
Rescue with low numbered Purple or Teal hero. Play Jehoida's Strength or Unified Kingdom to band in all their guys. Then use UW to send them all to your Raider's Camp.
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UW isn't a human EC so that doesn't work.
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The whole thing doesn't work.
Y'all are going looney.
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The rulebook clearly states that.... for "limited use" artifacts, which Rob clarified in the post quoted earlier. UW is not a "limited use" artifact. The phrase "discard after use" is one of those "clarifying text" thingies that have since been done away with. An artifact that says "May be used twice" is a "limited use artifact."
How is UW not limited? It can only be used a set amount of times, in this case once.
Both cards can only be used a set amount of times, Both cards can potentially do nothing (Holder not choosing to use UW, Holder not blocking with an assyrian), and both cards are killed by being used.
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The whole thing doesn't work.
Y'all are going looney.
I don't think it should work. I'm just trying to convince others that it would be way too powerful if it did. =D
UW isn't a human EC so that doesn't work.
Fine...use HQ at Riblah to discard 'em all.
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Is this a serious thread? Arch Angel just stop posting about this. Sorry if I am coming across rude but after reading all your "points" and seeing how every single person on here is telling you otherwise yet you are still arguing it, just for the sake of arguing. Unholy Writ is activated and one, there is no hero in battle, two it says MAY (which is a dead giveaway), and three why would you want this changed? Nothing good comes out of this being changed and what is your reasoning behind trying to get it changed? I see nothing good coming out of this "arguement". The only reason this is an arguement is because you are the only person that disagrees. Now I can guarentee you that this will NOT be changed to your liking, and it will stay the same way that it has been, and should be, for the past decade. Sorry, but come on dude for real? Drop this thread because this is a pointless conversation.
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Not really. Read the play as.
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Unholy Writ is activated and one, there is no hero in battle
If there is no hero in battle, AT is still counted as being used. Your point is?
two it says MAY (which is a dead giveaway
Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use.
Funny, I must be blind because I don't see MAY in there... and the Play As is what rulings are based on.
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For one I'm not the only one arguing this. For another, I'd be fine with Erratas or Play as on these cards so things can be consistent.
Also, I'm not the type to drop an opinion just because it's unpopular, especially when there's rulings that back it.
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Also, I'm not the type to drop an opinion just because it's unpopular, especially when there's rulings that back it.
Agreed. Look at me with Angels Sword. Everyone had settled with one ruling, I pointed out an inconstancy, and it got changed... quite a few people fought tooth and nail against me then too.
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First off lambo don't quote me and be sarcastic. Second it might be a play as but it says on the card, which is what I said, that it says may. Next thing is the wording on Assyria's Tribute is worded completely different than that of UW. Comparing the two is not even fair. Once you capture a human in hero in battle you then discard it after use. You guys are seeing this wrong just because you want to say that you got something changed in the REG. It is being played right and always has been. The discard after use does not mean once activated regardless of being used discard it. It means if you capture a human hero in battle then discard after being used.
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Agreed. Look at me with Angels Sword. Everyone had settled with one ruling, I pointed out an inconstancy, and it got changed... quite a few people fought tooth and nail against me then too.
Right here shows what I said is true. So does your old signature. You got so hot headed and arrogant and can not stop talking about how you changed angel's sword. Cool, good find. But this is different, so quit trying to change something else. Win a tournament if you want recognition, don't try to get something changed due to technicalities.
Also look t how many rulings and sets came out between this and Assyria's Tribute. The wording was different back then. It is being played how it should, so leave it alone.
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It means if you capture a human hero in battle then discard after being used.
Just like Split Altar means the artifact pile.
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Second it might be a play as but it says on the card, which is what I said, that it says may.
Doesnt matter what is written on the card if it gets a play as or errata. Those override the original wording.
I'm still waiting on your response to this:
Unholy Writ is activated and one, there is no hero in battle
If there is no hero in battle, AT is still counted as being used. Your point is?
Right here shows what I said is true. So does your old signature. You got so hot headed and arrogant and can not stop talking about how you changed angel's sword. Cool, good find. But this is different, so quit trying to change something else. Win a tournament if you want recognition, don't try to get something changed due to technicalities.
I am NOT doing this for recognition. I am just want the game to be consistant. Is there something wrong with wanting a game to function correctly? You brought up that we were simply arguing for arguing, and I brought that up and you claim I am being arrogant? The first part of my first post in this thread was largely just being funny, but me wanting consistancy was true.
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Go Into Captivity
Type: Curse • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 0 / 6 • Class: None • Special Ability: If your warrior class Evil Character is in battle, you may discard this card to capture a Hero. • Play As: When holder chooses, if your warrior class Evil Character is in battle then you may discard this card to capture a Hero. • Identifiers: OT • Verse: Deuteronomy 28:41 • Availability: Priests booster packs (Uncommon)
Maybe it should be 'play as' like above for clarification:
Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: You may discard this card to capture a human hero in battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
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I agree with Clift except it should keep the "human" clause. Especially since I believe that's the way we worded that one card in the new set... ::)
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Maybe it should be 'play as' like above for clarification:
Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: You may discard this card to capture a human hero in battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Acts 9:2 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
I'd be cool with that.
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that play as would fix all the problems, I'm happy with it... otherwise, I agree with AA and Lambo.
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I'll third this. Change the wording of the play as. That's clearly what was intended.
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I think the simple change streamlines the wording and makes things easier.
Kirk
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I also agree that a play as like that would work very well. Cov/Noah will need one as well, though. Unsuccesful as well. (which, btw, was made MUCH more recently than UW and still has that same wording.)
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Hey,
What Rob said:
"Used = activated"
What Rob meant:
"For artifacts that are conditional and for artifacts that simply happen, activating the artifact (and it not being negated) is all that has to happen for it to qualify as a use. For artifacts that are optional, the option must be invoked to qualify as a use."
Assyrian Tribute is a conditional artifact. Unholy Writ is an optional artifact.
Does that clear things up?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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Not when you're contradicting what the rulebook says. Namely that any limited use (which UW and friends ARE limited use) artifact MUST count as being used when it is activated.
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"Whoa, kill the motor, dude." - Crush (from Finding Nemo)
Russell, what he is trying to clear up is what Rob had tried to clarify. The rule you are talking about applies to "Limited Use" artifacts, which is a classification not a dictionary reference. Unholy Writ is an "Optional Use" artifact, by classification, so it has different rules than a "Limited Use" artifact. You are focusing too much on semantics, rather than the categories established by the game's founder.
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Hey,
Not when you're contradicting what the rulebook says.
Can you point me to what part of the rulebook you are referring to?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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It's been quoted a few times on this thread already, but heres the quote and a link as well :)
Some artifacts, covenants, or curses have a limited number of times you can use them. When these come to an end, you must discard them immediately. Once such an artifact, covenant, or curse is activated, it must be counted as having been used. This is true even if other events duplicate the effect of the artifac, covenant, or curse during the turn. (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/default.htm?turl=artifactactivation.htm)
Also, how is an Unholy Writ ANY different than Assyria's tribute? The current phrasing is practically the same. If it's play as'd or errata'd to work like Unknown Nation (eg, discard this card to...) then it would work as you all say, but right now the ruling for one should be the same as the other. Especially since one of the main arguments I've seen for why AT works how it does (apart from Used = Activated) is that "It can effect how your opponent plays" which is also true for UW. Double standards = broken game.
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It is going in one ear out the other. ???
Read YMT's post russ dog.
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Hey,
Thanks for the rulebook quote. It's worth noting the the PDF rulebook (and the printed rulebook) do not have the sentence you bolded. So apparently that's a modification made by Mike, presumably as a response to Rob's post. In which case Unholy Writ was an oversight. Now that you have brought Unholy Writ up we can correct the sentence to account for Unholy Writ.
Also, how is an Unholy Writ ANY different than Assyria's tribute?
Unholy Writ is optional. Assyrian Tribute is conditional. With an optional ability you choose whether or not you will use it. With a conditional ability you have to use it and the game (whether or not the condition is satisfied) determines whether or not it has any effect. Does that explain the difference?
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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It is going in one ear out the other. ???
Read YMT's post russ dog.
Your posts have become just as irrelevant as you claimed Arch Angel's were several pages back. The discussion seems to have moved on to whether or not Unholy Writ needs a play-as to establish consistency with the rulebook; you should start looking at this argument with that context in mind.
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I disagree on the difference between "optional" and "limited use" as you're putting it because the wording on UW is much more like a limited use than an optional ability (such as Unknown Nation) which don't list turn limits.
Here's an example with another card that's got split wording on it, I Am Healing.
I Am Healing
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Yellow • Ability: 0 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder may heal all of holder's Heroes in play. May be used twice.
In that ability it has the word "May" in it, BUT it also has the same turn limit as AT. Right now it's played as "May be used to heal twice" instead of the ability that's actually written.
Right now there are 4 cards that need to either be ruled differently than they are now, or be given (new) play as. (These cards are UW, Cov/Noah, Unsuccessful and IaHealing) Though there are likely more. I really don't care which option is chosen, just as long as it's consistent so that the game functions as it should.
(also, I read YMT's post, I just respectfully disagree. I'm currently attempting to get tournaments set up myself and I don't want to have to try and explain to players "Used means activated, except on this list of cards!")
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The important difference is the inclusion of the phrase, "May be used twice." That is the defining characteristic of a "Limited Use" artifact. Maybe an easier fix would be to change "Limited Use" to "Two Use." ;D
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Hey,
I disagree on the difference between "optional" and "limited use" as you're putting it because the wording on UW is much more like a limited use than an optional ability (such as Unknown Nation) which don't list turn limits.
Unholy Writ is both a limited use and an optional ability.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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So if it's limited use, then it counts as being "used" by being activated, whether or not you make a capture with it. Correct?
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So if it's limited use, then it counts as being "used" by being activated, whether or not you make a capture with it. Correct?
No It counts as being "used" when it is "used".
The important difference is the inclusion of the phrase, "May be used twice." That is the defining characteristic of a "Limited Use" artifact. Maybe an easier fix would be to change "Limited Use" to "Two Use." ;D
This is what a limited use artifact is. While UW is only limited to one use just like Go into captivity and UN and therefore "technically" a limited use artifact, they are not treated as such by the clause that you have pulled from the rulebook. THey are triggered arts that May, or may not be used when the triggers apply.
This whole thread really annoys me because this seems completely obvious to everyone but you Arch angel
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I can't believe this thread has gone on for this long.
Artifacts that have an optional use can be used at the holder's discretion. Rob very clearly stated this. I don't understand why anyone would argue that's not the case when he said it directly.
Arguing that the word "may" absent means it is a required use, even though "may" was replaced with "when holder chooses", is nonsense. If it MUST be used when it's activated, that's not when the holder chooses, is it? They both mean the same thing, that the ability is optional, and I can't think of a single logical reason to argue that either one of those statements don't clearly give an option.
The paragraph added in the REG about required uses refers to the number of times you can use the Artifact. Since Rob stated (see above) that Artifacts with an optional ability are used when the holder chooses to use it, what you have to do is understand the rules as a whole and not nitpick the tiny parts.
1). Some Artifacts are used immediately and by requirement, some Artifacts are used when the holder chooses.
2). In both cases, a use is a use is a use. Meaning, you don't get to cancel a use of Ark just because someone played Zeal, and you don't get to cancel a use of Tribute just because you banded to Spirit of Doubt and negated a Hero's ability.
Trying to map one statement onto another in order to manufacture a contradiction solves nothing. Look at all of the rules together.
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Hey,
So if it's limited use, then it counts as being "used" by being activated, whether or not you make a capture with it. Correct?
No.
As I said before,
For artifacts that are conditional and for artifacts that simply happen, activating the artifact (and it not being negated) is all that has to happen for it to qualify as a use. For artifacts that are optional, the option must be invoked to qualify as a use.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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@ Crustpope.
Er, I'm being oblivious? I've read people's arguments and understand them, and all I want is consistency. Crustpope, Unknown Nation and Go Into Captivity don't have turn limits. Their ability is "Discard the card to..." not "May be used X times" like AT, UW, and the other arts I've listed. If you'd like to ignore the rulebook, go ahead, but as it stands some form of change needs to be made for consistency's sake. I don't really care what change happens (Play As, Errata, Rulebook edit, ruling these arts to work like AT) but the current system doesn't work the way it is.
Also, if a thread's annoying you, you don't have to read it :/
Thanks for the rulebook quote. It's worth noting the the PDF rulebook (and the printed rulebook) do not have the sentence you bolded. So apparently that's a modification made by Mike, presumably as a response to Rob's post. In which case Unholy Writ was an oversight. Now that you have brought Unholy Writ up we can correct the sentence to account for Unholy Writ.
I don't usually have the PDF or printed rulebooks on me, so I was simply going off of what was in the REG one :) Also, that works for me, like I said all I care is that it's consistent.
Unholy Writ is optional. Assyrian Tribute is conditional. With an optional ability you choose whether or not you will use it. With a conditional ability you have to use it and the game (whether or not the condition is satisfied) determines whether or not it has any effect. Does that explain the difference?
But I view "When holder chooses" as a condition, and I'm not the only one. Just because that condition isn't fulfilled doesn't mean the artifact wasn't activated (read: used)
Artifacts that have an optional use can be used at the holder's discretion. Rob very clearly stated this. I don't understand why anyone would argue that's not the case when he said it directly.
Arguing that the word "may" absent means it is a required use, even though "may" was replaced with "when holder chooses", is nonsense. If it MUST be used when it's activated, that's not when the holder chooses, is it? They both mean the same thing, that the ability is optional, and I can't think of a single logical reason to argue that either one of those statements don't clearly give an option.
The paragraph added in the REG about required uses refers to the number of times you can use the Artifact. Since Rob stated (see above) that Artifacts with an optional ability are used when the holder chooses to use it, what you have to do is understand the rules as a whole and not nitpick the tiny parts.
1). Some Artifacts are used immediately and by requirement, some Artifacts are used when the holder chooses.
2). In both cases, a use is a use is a use. Meaning, you don't get to cancel a use of Ark just because someone played Zeal, and you don't get to cancel a use of Tribute just because you banded to Spirit of Doubt and negated a Hero's ability.
Trying to map one statement onto another in order to manufacture a contradiction solves nothing. Look at all of the rules together.
The thing is I've not seen a portion where Rob referred to Optional Artifact abilities mixed with limited uses. If someone could point me to that I'd be glad to read it, but the two quotes shown on this thread aren't referring to these sorts of artifacts.
Also, it's not that the ability must be used, it's that the artifact must count as being used (source: REG rulebook), which is only really important for limited use artifacts.
I'm really not trying to be argumentative. :|As I said before,
For artifacts that are conditional and for artifacts that simply happen, activating the artifact (and it not being negated) is all that has to happen for it to qualify as a use. For artifacts that are optional, the option must be invoked to qualify as a use.
But that's not what Rob said, and it's also not what's in the rules. If this was edited in/added/whatever to the rules, then that'd be fine too I suppose.
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But I view "When holder chooses" as a condition, and I'm not the only one.
The "condition" is that the holder CHOOSES to use the Artifact. Treating it like a condition is what is CAUSING this supposed contradiction, because you're trying to make it required and optional at the same time.
The thing is I've not seen a portion where Rob referred to Optional Artifact abilities mixed with limited uses.
All it takes is an ounce of common sense to mix the two ideas together. An optional ability is used when you CHOOSE to use it. Cards with limited uses can only be used a certain number of times. I just explained it in less than 25 words. Where's the complication?
Also, it's not that the ability must be used, it's that the artifact must count as being used (source: REG rulebook), which is only really important for limited use artifacts.
That doesn't make sense. How do you use a card and not use it at the same time?
But that's not what Rob said.
Actually, that's exactly what Rob said. Some Artifacts are "on demand" and some "must be used when activated". How can he list these two different kinds of Artifacts, spell out the difference between them, and still be saying to you that "on demand" also "must be used when activated"
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I don't usually have the PDF or printed rulebooks on me, so I was simply going off of what was in the REG one Also, that works for me, like I said all I care is that it's consistent.
This is not about consistency! What do you not get? These are two different meanings and phrases, how many people that are more knowledgeable than you have to tell you this so you get it? It is not inconsistent since it is not the same thing like everyone has been trying to get through to you. If the examples you stated were the same then maybe you would have a case, but just in one page crustpope, Tim, and Stephen, all came on here and said otherwise, yet you still are lingering around. This is ruled the way it should be and will NOT get changed and everyone has given you plenty of evidence of why. Crustpope was completely right when he said what he said. Just leave this alone, it will not be changed and the wording is how it should be.
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But I view "When holder chooses" as a condition, and I'm not the only one.
The "condition" is that the holder CHOOSES to use the Artifact. Treating it like a condition is what is CAUSING this supposed contradiction, because you're trying to make it required and optional at the same time.
I can CHOOSE to block with an assyrian as well, yet that still gets used after a turn regardless.
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I can't believe this thread has gone on for this long.
Artifacts that have an optional use can be used at the holder's discretion. Rob very clearly stated this. I don't understand why anyone would argue that's not the case when he said it directly.
Arguing that the word "may" absent means it is a required use, even though "may" was replaced with "when holder chooses", is nonsense. If it MUST be used when it's activated, that's not when the holder chooses, is it? They both mean the same thing, that the ability is optional, and I can't think of a single logical reason to argue that either one of those statements don't clearly give an option.
The paragraph added in the REG about required uses refers to the number of times you can use the Artifact. Since Rob stated (see above) that Artifacts with an optional ability are used when the holder chooses to use it, what you have to do is understand the rules as a whole and not nitpick the tiny parts.
1). Some Artifacts are used immediately and by requirement, some Artifacts are used when the holder chooses.
2). In both cases, a use is a use is a use. Meaning, you don't get to cancel a use of Ark just because someone played Zeal, and you don't get to cancel a use of Tribute just because you banded to Spirit of Doubt and negated a Hero's ability.
Trying to map one statement onto another in order to manufacture a contradiction solves nothing. Look at all of the rules together.
+1
End of story.
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I can CHOOSE to block with an assyrian as well, yet that still gets used after a turn regardless.
That has nothing to do with whether you MAY USE an ARTIFACT, and you know it.
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I don't really care what the artifact's special ability is. What I'm talking about is use limits, and how the rulebook defines them. the RULEBOOK in the REG says that when an artifact says "Used" it means Activated. The entry on Manually Triggered Abilities on Artifacts says NOTHING about them not being counted as "used" unless the ability is completed.
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But Rob explained the difference, and HOW Artifacts with optional abilities are used:
Artifacts... that have instant abilities that are optional can be applied at any time their owner chooses
I agree.
If I'm wrong, then you tell me how "such artifacts are not 'on demand' but must be used when activated" means to you "Artifacts that are on demand must also be used when activated."
Also, if you're now saying use limits are separate from the type of ability, then logically you are forced to acknowledge that it is in fact possible for an Artifact to have limited uses, but those uses can be applied at a time of the user's choosing. Separating them out only proves the point, you CAN have both.
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Rob's ONLY talking about special abilities in that thread. He doesn't once reference turn limits except as a side note from the rulebook quote he posted. I'm not saying that when you activate UW you HAVE to capture a hero RIGHT THEN. The SA on Writ is very clear that you can, at any time UW is active, capture a hero in battle.
What I AM saying is that, at least following the AT ruling, an artifact can be used without it's SA ever effecting anything. The turn limit has no dependence on any other abilities the card may or may not have. For example, if I activate The Silver Trumpets, but never enter battle with a Priest during that turn, it still should still count as having been "used" as it was active for that round.
Similarly, with it's current wording, UW should be discarded after being active for one round regardless of whether it ever captured any hero.
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Rob's ONLY talking about special abilities in that thread.
... right... cause that's what you "use" when you "activate" the Artifact. That's the entire point.
The SA on Writ is very clear that you can, at any time UW is active, capture a hero in battle.
Therefore, you may use it at any time UW is active.
What I AM saying is that, at least following the AT ruling, an artifact can be used without it's SA ever effecting anything. The turn limit has no dependence on any other abilities the card may or may not have.
Yes it does. The turn in question is a turn in which the special ability of AT is active. It simply is not affecting any cards. Just like if Red Dragon is immune to human Heroes, and you're using angels, the ability is still active, even though it's not affecting anything. Those two ONGOING NON-OPTIONAL abilities work the same way. UW with its OPTIONAL INSTANT ability does not.
Similarly, with it's current wording, UW should be discarded after being active for one round regardless of whether it ever captured any hero.
These two concepts are completely incompatible. It is not possible to use the Artifact and not capture a Hero, because the only thing it does... is capture a Hero. Capturing the Hero USES the ability.
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I still think it is simpler to change "Limited Use" artifacts to "Two Use" artifacts. Are there any artifacts that fall under the "activation=use" rule that do not have two uses? All the "optional use" artifacts are single use, correct?
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I Am Healing is optional and has 2 uses. So does The Silver Trumpets.
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The ability may not have been used, but the artifact was. Just like in my Silver Trumpet's example.
An artifact can be used without ever effecting anything. Just like there's the stipulation in the rulebook that if an artifact's ability is negated, it doesn't negate the use of it. Even though it's not doing anything, the artifact has still been activated.
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The ability may not have been used, but the artifact was. Just like in my Silver Trumpet's example.
I don't think that's correct. The ability on Silver Trumpets is optional also.
In addition, your claim about the Artifact being used separately from the ability contradicts Rob's statement that on-demand Artifacts are different from Artifacts that must be used when activated, and in all your replies, you have not addressed this one time.
An artifact can be used without ever effecting anything.
I already stipulated that and then went on to point out that the issue is not whether it is affecting when active, it is about when it is used. Can we move forward and not repeat, please?
Just like there's the stipulation in the rulebook that if an artifact's ability is negated, it doesn't negate the use of it.
If it's been active for at least one phase, yes, because it was already active for part of the turn. If you activate an ongoing Artifact and I negate it the same phase, so it has had no effect whatsoever, absolutely it negates the use.
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So If I play Burial Shroud and you activate Cov W/ Moses, I still get two uses of Shroud? cool.
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So If I play Burial Shroud and you activate Cov W/ Moses, I still get two uses of Shroud? cool.
That's not what he said. ;)
If you activate BS and I activate Cov w/Moses during the same phase then it negates the use of BS. If I activate Cov w/Moses during any other phase BS still gets a use because it has already been activated for an entire phase.
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Ah, that why I should read, and not post at midnight right before nationals....
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i just read all 7 pages of that. I want my 25 minutes back. :P
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i just read all 7 pages of that. I want my 25 minutes back. :P
Then you are a stronger man than me
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I'm still waiting for anyone to explain to me why Thirty Pieces of Silver/Ark of the Covenant, two non-optional limited-use artifacts, are treated differently than the similarly worded Assyria's Tribute. Both have a condition (battle resolution, block with an Assyrian), both are twice-per-game, so why is it that if a battle never takes place, AT is used up but Silver/Ark are not?
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Ark specifies 2 discards, not 2 uses. Currently, I think Thirty Pieces should be used up even if no discard occurs.
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I agree with 30 pieces being used up, especially since it also negates David's Harp, which is a continuous non optional ability
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Or better, reverse the ruling that never should have been made in the first place and let each of them play as they seem to upon reading.
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Or better, reverse the ruling that never should have been made in the first place and let each of them play as they seem to upon reading.
+1
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I agree, This was all started when the AT ruling came through and it is fouling up the works. Now people do not know how to rule on any artifact that seems to be clear in wording, but because of AT few players are sure of anything when it comes to Arts.
I would really rather preffer that there be a list of Arts that are used upon activation and those used upon condition and that list stay put. That way people know hhow to play those arts. Nothing makes me more angry that when I get to a tournament and have a card, especially an Art crucial to my offense or defense, ruled the wrong way.
Someone tell us how it is to be played and settle this. I think Arch Angel is a fool for trying to make UW a one turn use art just like AT is a two turn use art because UW does not limit its use of turns, it only says d/c after use, but if this AT ruling id going to change other Arts, let us know NOW so that we can know how to play them.
These rulings coming down before Nats is simply insane.
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In addition, your claim about the Artifact being used separately from the ability contradicts Rob's statement that on-demand Artifacts are different from Artifacts that must be used when activated, and in all your replies, you have not addressed this one time.
Yes I did. Manual Triggers are very different from ongoing arts because the ability starts right away regardless. This a "When holder Chooses" artifact its "Used" when it's activated, but then you get to decide when it's ability functions or not. You can be "using" the artifact without ever tapping it's ability. For example activating UW to try and force someone to play DoN so you can freely use your CoF. The artifact, according to the current rulebook, is being used simply by being activated. The ability is going constantly, it's just waiting for you to use it.
It's like if lay Words of Encouragement, but decide not to Interrupt, Draw or even Play Next with it, I still used the enhancement without activating it's special ability.
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Someone tell us how it is to be played and settle this. I think Arch Angel is a fool for trying to make UW a one turn use art just like AT is a two turn use art because UW does not limit its use of turns, it only says d/c after use, but if this AT ruling id going to change other Arts, let us know NOW so that we can know how to play them.
I'm not trying to make it be a 1 turn use artifact, I'd actually much prefer it to recieve a Play As so that it functions like Go Into Captivity. I've said that probably about five times by now.
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Manual Triggers are very different from ongoing arts because the ability starts right away regardless.
That directly contradicts what Rob said. That is the part you have not addressed. Repeating the same statement you've been making does not address the problem.
It's like if lay Words of Encouragement, but decide not to Interrupt, Draw or even Play Next with it, I still used the enhancement without activating it's special ability.
Wrong. You activated the special ability when you played it.
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I think Arch Angel is a fool for trying to make UW a one turn use art just like AT is a two turn use art because UW does not limit its use of turns, it only says d/c after use..
I'm not trying to make it be a 1 turn use artifact, I'd actually much prefer it to recieve a Play As so that it functions like Go Into Captivity. I've said that probably about five times by now.
Yes you are trying to make it a one turn artifact. The problem I have is that you have Zero basis for making that claim. I think this whole thread is foolishness because there are probably artifacts that are much more like AT that you could pick a fight with like "The Silver Trumpets" or "Thirty Pieces of Silver" and make a case for them to be expired after two turns. I would still argue with you on those points as well because I see them as Optional that may be applied at any time, but at least you would have a leg to stand on.
Unholy Writ says nothing in its SA about only being used for one turn. It talks about being used and it sets the conditions for that use. period.
Unholy Writ
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: A human Hero in battle may be taken prisoner. Discard Artifact after use. • Play As: When holder chooses, capture a human Hero during battle. Discard Artifact after one use.
It is as clear as it can be written. It is optional and may be used at the discresion of the holder. Tim Maly has already pointed out that the REG quote you keep using is not in ANY of the other rulebook material and is likely a misprint yet you keep slogging away at this. This Argument of yours is bordering on insanity and frankly is doing nothing to clear up the problems that originaly started it, The "faulty" AT ruling. My problem is not that you are making this argument as an example of the potential problems with the AT ruling, it is that you have chosen perhaps the POORESt example of a possible problem and have continued ot hammer away at it long after TPTB have noted that your arguments are based on:
1) a faulty understanding of optional or conditional uses artifacts,
2) a wrong Quote in the REG and
3) perhapst the WORST EXAMPLE of a potential problem with the AT ruling.
do yourself a favor an please stop
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I've got peace like a river, regardless of how this is eventually worded in the REG. :)
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That directly contradicts what Rob said. That is the part you have not addressed. Repeating the same statement you've been making does not address the problem.
Where did I contradict anything Rob said?
Yes you are trying to make it a one turn artifact. The problem I have is that you have Zero basis for making that claim.
Ok so wait you said I'm being oblivious, and then said I'm doing something that i just said I'm not. Way to be.
I'm NOT trying to make UW a one time use art. I'm simply trying to get either a ruling (on either side) or the abilities on the cards changed via play as so that things don't contradict.
Here's what I've been trying to say the whole time:
Scenario one (Ongoing, no Limit):
On my turn, I activate Tables of the Law, it is now that artifact I'm using. The round goes through and it's once again my turn. Because TotL was my active artifact it loses a "use." TotL has no limit on uses, though, so this is not recorded.
Scenario two (Ongoing, Limit):
On my turn. I activate AT, it is now the artifact that I'm using. The round goes through without me blocking with an Assyrian and comes back to my turn, and because AT was my active artifact it loses a "use." I leave AT active again, the round goes through and it comes back to my turn. AT is now discarded because there's an understood "Discard this card..." after the two 'uses' are completed. Even though the SAs say they "May" be used twice, activating them automatically applies a Use because of game rule.
Scenario three (Manual Trigger, Limit):
On my turn, I activate UW, it is now the artifact I'm using. The round goes around, but I decide not to capture a Hero in Battle. It's now my turn again, and because UW was active it loses a "use." Because UW says "discard after one use" I discard it.
Scenario four (Manual Trigger, no Limit):
On my turn, I activate Unknown Nation, it is now that artifact I'm using. The round goes through and it's once again my turn. Because UN was my active artifact it loses a "use." UN has no limit on uses, though, so this is not recorded.
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Where did I contradict anything Rob said?
I have explained it to you three times. It is very simple. Rob clearly differentiated between Arts used on demand and Arts used when activated. You are saying that on-demand Artifacts are still used when activated.
I'm NOT trying to make UW a one time use art. I'm simply trying to get either a ruling (on either side) or the abilities on the cards changed via play as so that things don't contradict.
They don't contradict. You just refuse to see this any way other than one way, based on something added to the rulebook to clarify a completely different issue, and ignoring everything else that has been said.
I activate Tables of the Law, it is now that artifact I'm using.
Because it is ongoing and mandatory, and therefore is active the entire time it is turned up.
On my turn. I activate AT, it is now the artifact that I'm using. The round goes through without me blocking with an Assyrian and comes back to my turn, and because AT was my active artifact it loses a "use."
Because it is ongoing and mandatory, and therefore is active the entire time it is turned up.
The round goes around, but I decide not to capture a Hero in Battle. It's now my turn again, and because UW was active it loses a "use."
You did not use Unholy Writ. The ability is optional and you did not exercise the option.
Because UN was my active artifact it loses a "use." UN has no limit on uses, though, so this is not recorded.
You did not use Unknown Nation. The ability is optional and you did not exercise the option.
You were careful to point out that the first two abilities were ongoing, but "conveniently" left out that the last two were non-ongoing (and completely neglected the optional/non-optional abilities).
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You were careful to point out that the first two abilities were ongoing, but "conveniently" left out that the last two were non-ongoing (and completely neglected the optional/non-optional abilities).
Er, how did i 'conveniently' leave it out? I just used the term the REG uses, "Manual Trigger"
Also, Like I said Rob was talking about the activation of the special abilities, he didn't once mention the physical use of an artifact. According to the entry in the rulebook (which according to Rob's post existed BEFORE he posted it) Activation constitutes "Using" the ability. There isn't anything in the REG or Rulebook that says "But if the Artifact's ability is optional, it's only a use if you trigger it's ability." If such a statement WERE in the REG/Rulebook then I wouldn't be debating this. In fact if such a thing were added it'd be a fine solution as well.
Also, I would appreciate not being falsely accused of things I haven't done.
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Yes you are trying to make it a one turn artifact. The problem I have is that you have Zero basis for making that claim.
Ok so wait you said I'm being oblivious, and then said I'm doing something that i just said I'm not. Way to be.
I'm NOT trying to make UW a one time use art. I'm simply trying to get either a ruling (on either side) or the abilities on the cards changed via play as so that things don't contradict.
Oh, I'm sorry I must have misunderstood you. Currently, as schaef, Maly and many others have pointed out, UW is used as an optional ability that may be used at any time that it is up, even if it is up for the whole game.
but here you said:
Scenario three (Manual Trigger, Limit):
On my turn, I activate UW, it is now the artifact I'm using. The round goes around, but I decide not to capture a Hero in Battle. It's now my turn again, and because UW was active it loses a "use." Because UW says "discard after one use" I discard it.
Obviously I am wrong because in this preceding description you did not describe UW as being a one use artifact like you claim you are not trying to do.
no, wait, you DID just decribe that very scenario.
I ham having a hard time understanding how you are tranlating an optional ability as a mandatory use? UW has ALWAYS been seen as an optional ability that MAY (or may not) the holder when the conditions are met. It is discarded after its use. But you have translated the term "use" to be synonamous with "activation" and "one use" to be synonymous with "one turn"
While There are artifacts that have a "per turn " use, UW has NEVER been interpreted to be like that and your leaps in logic are just plan buffonery. Its like you aretrying to compare Armpits to Apricots and say that one scenario is the same as the other because they both begin with the letter A.
One "Use" of UW is a sucessful capture of a human hero in battle. Not a single turn that it is activated. This has been explained thouroughly to yo uby Multiple people yet you insist that you are in the right. I just dont understand how you can still think you are.
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Er, how did i 'conveniently' leave it out? I just used the term the REG uses, "Manual Trigger"
Well, first of all, what I said you left out was the fact that they are instant abilities when activated. You made it a point to note ongoing Artifacts, but not non-ongoing Artifacts, even though that is a key part of how these work. And here, you're questioning me for saying so, but still make no mention of their instantaneous effect.
And the part you are neglecting is the description of how optional Artifact uses work that was laid out in plain English on page 1. You used the term but you didn't bother to apply any significance to it, nor apply that in your scenarios to determine the outcome. So "using the term" doesn't really impress me when it's just a throwaway phrase.
Also, Like I said Rob was talking about the activation of the special abilities, he didn't once mention the physical use of an artifact.
He specifically differentiated between using an Artifact on demand and using an Artifact when activated. You are inventing a distinction that does not exist.
If such a statement WERE in the REG/Rulebook then I wouldn't be debating this.
Alternately, if something the creator of the game specifically said mattered to you at all, you wouldn't be debating this.
Manually Triggered Ability (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_manuallytriggeredability.htm)
A manually triggered ability is an ongoing ability that is directly triggered by the holder... Manually triggered abilities can be identified by the phrase “when holder chooses”... If the condition for the trigger is met, the holder must be given the choice to activate the ability before another card can be played.
Also, I would appreciate not being falsely accused of things I haven't done.
I'm only going on what you said, and I don't say anything that I can't back up.
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As I tried to say, in those scenarios i was describing how it should work currently following the current wording and rules. I don't care whether UW is ruled as a one turn use art, or if it gets a play as to function how it always has been played. I really honest to goodness don't care which way it goes, as long as it goes SOMEWHERE.
But you have The Rulebook has translated the term "use" to be synonamous with "activation" and "one use" to be synonymous with "one turn"
Fixed.
Also, the only art/cov/curse that actually specifies "may be used X Rounds" on it is Carcasses, and NO art/cov/curse specifies "may be used X turns". The others simply say "May be used X times" with the understood "Discard after X uses" meaning. UW just says the understood meaning instead of the typical ruling. Kinda like how AoCP says "Cannot be Interrupted, Negated or Prevented" instead of the modern Cannot Be Negated.
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Well, first of all, what I said you left out was the fact that they are instant abilities when activated. You made it a point to note ongoing Artifacts, but not non-ongoing Artifacts, even though that is a key part of how these work. And here, you're questioning me for saying so, but still make no mention of their instantaneous effect.
I didn't include that they were instant abilities because it wasn't relevant to the scenarios I presented. I also presumed that it was understood that a Manual Trigger Artifact always was an optional ability because that's the definition.
And the part you are neglecting is the description of how optional Artifact uses work that was laid out in plain English on page 1. You used the term but you didn't bother to apply any significance to it, nor apply that in your scenarios to determine the outcome. So "using the term" doesn't really impress me when it's just a throwaway phrase.
... Why would I include a description that I not only disagree with, but that is not found anywhere in the rules.
"Manual Trigger" ONLY applies to the ABILITY of the artifact, not how many "uses" it has.
He specifically differentiated between using an Artifact on demand and using an Artifact when activated. You are inventing a distinction that does not exist.
He specified between how the SAs on them functioned, not as to whether or not activating them does/does not count as a use.
Manually Triggered Ability (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/gloss_manuallytriggeredability.htm)
A manually triggered ability is an ongoing ability that is directly triggered by the holder... Manually triggered abilities can be identified by the phrase “when holder chooses”... If the condition for the trigger is met, the holder must be given the choice to activate the ability before another card can be played.
Fixed your emphasis.
Ability =! Use
Activated as an Artifact = Use
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Pretty sure Arch Angel isn't gonna give this up until Rob specifically addresses it... Or divine revelation is imparted. I'm praying for the latter.
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As I tried to say, in those scenarios i was describing how it should work currently following the current wording and rules.
That's not correct because you have been shown repeatedly how your interpretation is contradictory and you have not addressed that contradiction.
UW just says the understood meaning instead of the typical ruling.
It is understood because of the rules regarding the optional use of Artifacts.
I didn't include that they were instant abilities because it wasn't relevant to the scenarios I presented.
It IS, because ongoing abilities are active for an extended period of time, and therefore those are always used when active. That was THE POINT of what Tim and Rob said earlier, and the fact that you think it doesn't matter demonstrates your lack of understanding.
I also presumed that it was understood that a Manual Trigger Artifact always was an optional ability because that's the definition.
Apparently not, because you are making the usage mandatory.
"Manual Trigger" ONLY applies to the ABILITY of the artifact, not how many "uses" it has.
You are inventing a distinction that does not exist. Using the ability IS the use.
He specified between how the SAs on them functioned, not as to whether or not activating them does/does not count as a use.
He specifically used the term "used when activated" and specifically differentiated them. "USED WHEN ACTIVATED" is the EXACT thing you are talking about, and it is blatantly false to limit his words to the special ability, as though there was somehow a difference. You have been shown repeatedly that the places you think there is a difference are wrong.
Ability =! Use
Activated as an Artifact = Use
This statement directly contradicts the REG definition that says the holder can CHOOSE TO ACTIVATE. You are inventing a distinction that does not exist.
Pretty sure Arch Angel isn't gonna give this up until Rob specifically addresses it.
Rob addressed it on page 1, actually BEFORE because he was QUOTED on page one. It hasn't made a lick of difference because he refuses to accept any information beyond the small amount he is drawing from.
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So basically, what you are looking for is a "Play As" for "Optional Use" Artifacts that read more like Unknown Nation.
Although this thread has dragged on tirelessly, I do agree that rulings would be much easier if only "Limited Use" Artifacts actually had the word "use" in the SA. Just saying "discard this card in order to..." makes "Optional Use" artifacts more logically different.
I realize that I am Healing and Silver Trumpets would need to be tweaked, but if those are the only exceptions, I'm sure we can all agree on a compromise.
I also realize that some would say the difference is already obvious, but we should remain hopeful that new hosts and players are joining the game every week, so any way to streamline rulings would be advantageous for all.
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Look, Arch, I know you don't agree with the ruling. You have established this. However, ROB HAS RULED ON THIS ISSUE. Once Rob rules, that's it.
I'm not going to say Rob has never changed his mind, but he's a lot like a baseball umpire in that he's not likely to do it very often.
I don't agree with every ruling Rob has ever made. But we all accept them. There has to be a final call in Redemption, and Rob makes those calls. He has made a call. Please live with it and move on.
Kevin Shride
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Look, Arch, I know you don't agree with the ruling. You have established this. However, ROB HAS RULED ON THIS ISSUE. Once Rob rules, that's it.
Arch,
The Tribe has spoken! You have been voted off Redemption lawyer Survivor ,Technicallity Island. Come live with us in exile here in Minnesota.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0MvURDiu2s&feature=related# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0MvURDiu2s&feature=related#)