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Unbound would negate Go Into Captivity (activated as an artifact) while trying to capture my hero, right? It says "evil capture abilities."

Unbound
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: White • Ability: 3 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: Negate evil capture abilities. Return all captured Heroes to owners’ territories. Add any number of them to the battle. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Daniel 3:25 • Availability: Faith of Fathers (Set 6)

I would say yes.  I remember a ruling that the brigade on a curse (activated as an artifact) counted as an "evil brigade in play."  I forget which good card this pertained to, but that aside, if the curse maintains it's evil brigade while activated as an artifact, then I say it maintains its evil-ness for Unbound's purposes.

Hey,

Go Into Captivity is an evil capture ability so the Negate on Unbound can target it.  But if Go Into Captivity is used before Unbound is played, then Go Into Captivity is not in play (because of the self discarding) and thus isn't targeted by Unbound.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Quote from: SirNobody on July 17, 2010, 07:30:45 PM

But if Go Into Captivity is used before Unbound is played, then Go Into Captivity is not in play (because of the self discarding) and thus isn't targeted by Unbound.

This is the part that I still do not get. The SA of GiC is not complete until the capture is completed. If I negate the capture, which I am allowed to do by game rule, then I do not see why the "discard this card to" clause matters. The card's SA can not be active if it is in the Discard Pile. The card is on the way to the discard pile. I do not understand why negating my removal cannot target the card that is causing the removal.

FWIW, I know that this is the way it has always been ruled, but I need clarification as to the why, because it makes no sense to me.

The thing is abilities on cards have to complete before you can play anything. You cannot interrupt a card ability while it is completing. Therefore the hero gets captured (pending a negate) and GiC goes to the discard pile. Then by game rule you can play a negate , but since unbound and other cards that could get rid of the curse only target cards in play you cannot negated it. Understand?

You get the opportunity to Negate whatever's killing you, but it's up to you to be legally able to target it.


Wait, I just changed my mind half way through posting this. If Korah's Rebellion can be Negated by something that doesn't target cards removed from the game, why couldn't Unbound Negate GiC?

So...Samson's Sacrifice, Discards my PO, I ITB D2 and get Discarder. Can I Discard my PO with Discarder?

Yes, but SS is also a cost/benefit like GiC. Either Unbound can Negate GiC or in the situation I described, Discarder can't target PO.

Interesting. I have always been a little confused by the way negate is handled, but it works most of the time, so I don't complain. I'm glad a problem has been caused though, because I think a better explanation is needed.

You can't negate something that isn't in play, like you can't DoN Unsuccessful after it's used

I see no reason why GiC cannot be negated just because it was discarded first.

In the Reg quote it say it negates the last enhancement, GiC is not being used as an enhancement

I understand that, but I was using the quote as evidence that you can indeed negate a card that is in the discard pile. Unbound specifically targets an evil capture ability, which GiC has. The fact that GiC is in the discard pile is not grounds for completely disregarding the negate, IMO.

I also understand that I may be wrong, but I'm still not convinced why I am wrong, since there is precedent for negating something in the discard pile.

I agree 100%.

I have always been told that the reason you cannot use DoN to negate Unholy writ is the card is not there to be discarded, and therefore cannot be negated by the second line.  I fail to see why Unbound would not stop GiC.  Unbound is not targeting the card, it is targeting the ability.  No where on unbound does say negate the last capture card, or the last enhancement.  It just says capture ability.

You can't negate something that isn't in play, like you can't DoN Unsuccessful after it's used

This untrue, you can negate Korah's rebellion, you can negate Joseph in Prison.  If the evil card not being there any more actually made it untargetable for negate then how could we ever negate anything?

But Unbound does not target the card, it targets the ability.

It depends on what the rules say. If they say that Enhancements removing you give you initiative to Interrupt, then GiC is safe. But if it says abilities removing you, then Unbound should be able to Negate it.

That quote say you can negate it, but no cards in the game today allow you to negate it.


Let me rephrase my argument.


This situation is not the same as removing all cards in battle or discarding all heroes in play,etc.. In that situation the abilities complete but the cards are not placed in the discard pile because of the game rule that lets you negate it. You can use interrupt the battle or negate whatever, but the main point here is that you can target it with cards that default to play because nothing is allowing that enhancement to be discarded (the game rule prevents the ability from completing, otherwise you could not negate the enhancement). GIC completes discardes itself to capture the hero, you cannot target it with interrupt the battle or negates because they can only interrupt/negate enhancements that were played or cards in play.  Do you understand?

you cannot target it with interrupt the battle or negates because they can only interrupt/negate enhancements that were played or cards in play.  Do you understand?

I understand what your position is, I am just disagreeing with it.  The REG does not say you can only negate enhancements, Unbound clearly specifies an ability not an enhancement, if it were any other card I would probably agree with you.  GiC is a capture ability, Unbound negates capture abilities, not capture enhancements but capture abilities.

the quote still doesnt say the limited use artifacts can be negated after use.

Speaking for myself, I understand what you are saying.

Now, let me rephrase my argument. 

The REG says that there is no difference between "immediately discarded" and "about to be discarded." The fact that GiC was discarded first is not relevant to fact that it can be negated. In fact, GiC's ability would have to be active after it is discarded, right? Otherwise it would discard itself and then nothing would happen because it is no longer in play. I am arguing that GiC is "about to be discarded," and is therefore negatable.

By that logic I can DON GIC on the way to the discard pile.

Quote

the quote still doesnt say the limited use artifacts can be negated after use.

It also does not say that they cannot be negated. 

  In a situation where we have no rule saying that the capture ability itself cannot be negated, we have to assume that a negate, with the proper wording (which unbound has) can negate an artifact or enhancements capture ability, regardless of the location of the actual card.  Why would we assume otherwise?

It says negate capture abilities, those capture abilities have to be in play because the card defaults to play. Since GIC is in the discard pile and the abilities are on GIC I fail to see how you can negate it. Furthermore is the abilities are technically floating around somewhere if you cannot target the card I don't see how you can negate those abilities, that just doesn't make sense.

I agree that Unbound will negate GiC whether it's used as an Artifact or as an Enhancement.

The following quote from the REG indicates that it's possible to negate the ability of an Artifact even after it's been "exhausted" (used once in the case of GiC) because it clearly states that only the 'Discard after Use' part is CBN.

Quote from: REG > Instant Abilities > Interrupt or Negate Last > Special Conditions

Exhausted artifacts  (and covenant cards or curse  cards used as artifacts) that must be discarded  after use are discarded immediately after use.  The ‘Discard  after Use’ phrase on artifacts cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated(e.g., Ark of the Covenant, Unholy Writ, etc.).

This doesn't say that you can though. I don't understand your point with the quote.

By that logic I can DON GIC on the way to the discard pile.

Korunks already addressed this, but just to clarify, my use of "about to be discarded" is to empahsize that GiC's SA is not complete until the capture completes. Therefore, GiC is "about to discarded" when I negate the capture, and is therefore still targetable. The only reason I can negate GiC is because I have intiative by removal, so I am allowed to play a negate.

DoN, on the other hand, is a "discard" ability. There is also a "negate" ability, but that cannot activate until the discard completes, since it is a different sentence. I cannot play a "discard" ability while GiC is trying to complete. I can only play an interrupt. Your DoN on GiC situation is more like trying to play AotL to stop a capture.

what about other enhancements, like scapegoat?

Again, I disagree. It's the same as unbound.

Exhausted artifacts  (and covenant cards or curse  cards used as artifacts) that must be discarded  after use are discarded immediately after use.  The ‘Discard  after Use’ phrase on artifacts cannot be interrupted, prevented or negated(e.g., Ark of the Covenant, Unholy Writ, etc.).

The author(s) of the REG went out of their way to specify which part of limited use Artifact is CBN (bolded above).  If the entire ability was CBN, and not just the discard after use portion, I can't see any reason why they would have only mentioned that phrase.  

The conclusion I draw is that it's possible, although rare, to negate other abilities on limited Artifacts/Curses.

i seem to recall before that once artifacts are discarded for effect, they were no longer open for being negated.

I recall the same thing.  In fact that's what I was searching for but the only thing I found related to that idea was what I quoted.