Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: michaeljl on May 28, 2012, 10:05:31 PM
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In a side battle, I drop both Great Image and Christian Suing Another.
In the inception battle, (battle within a battle within a battle) I play two bears and shuffle Great Image.
Does Great Image's effect still happen?
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I think you are only allowed to create one side battle per turn. However, in this instance great image still works. When 2 bears interrupts the battle it would only interrupt the last enhancement played, which I am assuming was CSA.
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One side battle per turn? That's no fun.
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From the REG:
Each player is only allowed to initiate one side battle per turn. If a player has already started initiated a side battle in the current turn, all characters are restricted from side battle abilities on cards used by that player.
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But hypothetically, you block, drop a GI, drop Christ. Suing Anoth. and then drop a couple bears to bounce GI back to the States to reuse him.
Only problem is, that's pretty useless except for corporate interest.
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But hypothetically, you block, drop a GI, drop Christ. Suing Anoth. and then drop a couple bears to bounce GI back to the States to reuse him.
Only problem is, that's pretty useless except for corporate interest.
First, yes, only one side-battle can be created per player per turn. Additional battles can be created (a la Ambush the City and Grapes of Wrath), but only one side-battle.
On to your question, this is where things get confusing and require the definition of all the cards and Interrupt the Battle:
Great Image
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: All opponents' Heroes in play that are not in the Field of Battle at end of this battle must be discarded.
Christian Suing Another
Type: Evil Enh. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Holder interrupts the battle and chooses a Hero in play to fight the rescuing Hero. The loser is discarded.
Two Bears
Type: Hero Enh. • Brigade: Green • Ability: 4 / 2 • Class: None • Special Ability: If used by a Prophet, interrupt the battle and select one card of each evil brigade in play. Shuffle them into deck.
The phrase “interrupt the battle includes interrupting the following:
-all active ongoing abilities
-abilities that are defeating one of the characters you control in battle
-the last enhancement played in current battle if it was played by your opponent.
-Interrupt the battle only includes such abilities if they are on cards that are in battle.
Now, here's where the fun begins.
Great Image is an ongoing ability, for while it has completed, it has an effect that is ongoing until the end of battle. That is, it is a continuous ability waiting for the end of battle to be triggered, and thus discard all heroes not in the field of battle. It is important to establish that it is ongoing, and also that it is in the field of battle, that is, in any battle.
Christian Suing Another is an instant ability, for it has completed and it has no effects outstanding or awaiting triggers. The act of creating the side-battle was all that it did, and therefore it is an instant ability without ongoing abilities or triggers. It is important to establish not only that it is instant, but that it is in the original battle and not the side-battle.
Two Bears is an Interrupt the Battle, which has 3 targets. It interrupts all ongoing abilities, all abilities causing a losing condition for your side, and the last enhancement played in the current battle if played by an opponent.
In your scenario, nothing is causing a losing condition (the second target), so we can ignore it.
Great Image, however, is an ongoing ability in the field of battle. It may be in the original battle, but Interrupt the Battle targets all abilities that fit the conditions "on cards that are in battle". "In battle" means "in the field of battle", which means "any battle in play". This means that, when played, Two Bears has an Interrupt the Battle effect that would suspend the ongoing ability of Great Image. It must reactivate after Two Bears completes, as per the Interrupt the Battle rules of reactivation.
Christian Suing Another, on the other hand, does not meet any criteria to be targeted. Even if your opponent had played it (notice that Interrupt the Battle cannot target your own enhancements, save the ongoing effects as mentioned above), the condition on the third target reads "played in current battle", meaning only the battle currently being resolved. If Two Bears is played in a different battle, even if Christian Suing Another was the last enhancement played by your opponent, it could not target it. You would need a targeted interrupt or negate to affect it.
This brings us to the conclusion to your question. As shown, Two Bears will suspend the ongoing effect of Great Image while being unable to target Christian Suing Another. Thus, if you targeted Great Image for shuffle with Two Bears, its effect would not take place, as it was unable to reactivate as described in the rules for Interrupt the Battle. You could not use this strategy to recycle Great Image while still using its effect.
However, you could target Christian Suing Another and not undo its effect, for the exact opposite reason. It was never interrupted, so its effect is not suspended. It can be shuffled into deck (making it effectively CBN at that point, as you cannot target cards out of play and no Interrupt the Battle can target it, nor is it causing removal) and the side-battle continues. Once Two Bears completes, Great Image reactivates and the ongoing effect continues, discarding the heroes after battle if it is not negated or interrupted and unable to reactivate.
Short answer: You could use this combo on Christian Suing Another but not on Great Image.
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This is the part that I got hung up on; Great Image is a triggered ability. Just found in the REG where triggered abilites are listed as ongoing. Therefore, I would agree with Redoubter
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From the REG:
Each player is only allowed to initiate one side battle per turn. If a player has already started initiated a side battle in the current turn, all characters are restricted from side battle abilities on cards used by that player.
Woa Woa Woa!!!
Hang on now! This said "Each player is only allowed to initiate one side battle per turn." that means we can actually have 2! I know the standard has been to only allow one but if a blocker plays Christians Suing and then a side battle that has visions played by the rescuing player you get your 3rd battle in one turn 8)
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Woa Woa Woa!!!
Hang on now! This said "Each player is only allowed to initiate one side battle per turn." that means we can actually have 2! I know the standard has been to only allow one but if a blocker plays Christians Suing and then a side battle that has visions played by the rescuing player you get your 3rd battle in one turn 8)
That's what we said, "one side-battle per player per turn". Yes, you can have 2 if both players use one. If you had it ruled differently, then that was incorrect. Each player may start one per turn, but they are restricted to that one.
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I actually had it ruled (no names but at a tourny we both were at) a wile back that I couldn't start a side battle because my opp had already done so. I was told one side battle per turn.
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Actually, I'm not sure that Redoubter is correct. I know that cards that remove/shuffle/discard all cards "in battle", as opposed to "in the Field of Battle" (like Joseph in Prison, Grapes of Wrath, or Deceit of Sapphira (G)) only target cards in the side battle. So I think that per the wording of what ItB does, it only interrupts ongoing abilities in the current battle, not any other battles going on. In order for Two Bears to interrupt Great Image in this scenario, the definition of interrupt the battle would have to extend to the "Field of Battle".
So I would rule that Great Image triggers as normally, and you get it shuffled in your deck for another shot. I don't see anything wrong with that, as there are far easier ways to recur evil enhancements than that, and I think it would probably be more hassle than less to say that ItB interrupted ongoing abilities in the main battle.
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Christian Suing Another is ITB as well, so doesn't that interrupt Great Image (since it's ongoing), so that anything you do to it during the side battle happens while it's interrupted?
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Side battle issues seem to be a recurring theme these days. It seems that we need to establish clearly defined rules for side battles. I know I posted a week or two ago about Moses's FBTN ability carrying over from/to a side battle and their was never any clear agreement on that ruling. I guess what needs to be established is whether cards played in side battles should be able to target cards in the original battle and vice versa.
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Christian Suing Another is ITB as well, so doesn't that interrupt Great Image (since it's ongoing), so that anything you do to it during the side battle happens while it's interrupted?
Ouch. Aggie'd.
Yes, Aggie is correct. However, in the case of a non-interrupting side battle card, I would be correct.
Side battle issues seem to be a recurring theme these days. It seems that we need to establish clearly defined rules for side battles. I know I posted a week or two ago about Moses's FBTN ability carrying over from/to a side battle and their was never any clear agreement on that ruling. I guess what needs to be established is whether cards played in side battles should be able to target cards in the original battle and vice versa.
Yeah, side battles always have been and probably always will be tricky to deal with, because whenever cards are being made, the question always needs to be asked: "what happens with this card in a side battle?" A lot of really creative proposed abilities have had to be reworded/nerfed because of their potential side battle abuse.
AFAIK, Moses always negates all abilities in all battles that occur during the same phase that he is used. That would include the main battle and any side battles regardless of when or which battle he entered. The one exception I can think of is if the side battle is CBN (say it's caused by Rehoboam with Gates of Jerusalem up) and Moses comes into the main battle after the side battle is completed; in that case, I don't think that the abilities that completed during the side battle on cards that are no longer in play are negated, as they would be if the side battle was negatable.
I don't recall the thread exactly, but is there a synopsis of who disagreed with that and why? Or a link to the thread?
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no aggie is wrong because csa is not an ongoing interrupt it simply interrupts just long enough to begin the sb. im quite sure csa is instant.
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I don't recall the thread exactly, but is there a synopsis of who disagreed with that and why? Or a link to the thread?
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/ambush-the-city-and-moses/
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Side-battles create an umbrella. The side-battle SA is not completed until the side-battle completes. That's why when you block with Rehoboam with GoJ up, you draw following the side-battle.
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ok fine so no virtual gi but still a good hit vs multi color defenses
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FWIW, That thread is regarding Ambush the City, which is a different issue than side battles. I don't see anything in that thread that contradicts what I said about side battles, and I don't think anyone ruled opposite to what Tim said in that thread regarding AtC. I'm not sure what the lingering doubts are precisely, but if you outline them, I'd be happy to take a look at it.
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FWIW, That thread is regarding Ambush the City, which is a different issue than side battles.
The thread was actually about starting a side battle with Christian Suing Another ;)
Also, you were right to correct me about "in battle". I confused myself while reading the REG, and was incorrect.
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FWIW, That thread is regarding Ambush the City, which is a different issue than side battles.
The thread was actually about starting a side battle with Christian Suing Another ;)
I was referring to the thread Adotson linked to which was titled "Ambush the City and Moses".
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Ouch. Aggie'd.
I hope Southeast Regionals get Aggie'd again. ;)
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FWIW, That thread is regarding Ambush the City, which is a different issue than side battles.
The thread was actually about starting a side battle with Christian Suing Another ;)
I was referring to the thread Adotson linked to which was titled "Ambush the City and Moses".
And I leave this thread before I misread something else or say something else dumb :P
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And I leave this thread before I misread something else or say something else dumb :P
Saying something dumb has never stopped me before. ;D