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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on December 28, 2009, 08:20:38 PM

Title: Trembling Demon
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 28, 2009, 08:20:38 PM
Trembling Demon says "If no good Enhancement is played this battle..."

The language sounds like you start counting from when TD enters battle, but I could also see it being ruled that even if a Good Enhancement was played before he entered battle, LS's would not be Protected from Rescue. Which is it?
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: BubbleBoy on December 28, 2009, 08:35:26 PM
I would say it means from the time TD activates.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Gabe on December 28, 2009, 08:46:31 PM
The battle begins when the Hero enters the field of battle, not when the Evil Character blocks.  If Jacob, ET or a green prophet with Hidden Treasures plays first, don't expect to "coward block" with Trembling Demon.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Cameron the Conqueror on December 29, 2009, 01:11:36 AM
The battle begins when the Hero enters the field of battle, not when the Evil Character blocks.  If Jacob, ET or a green prophet with Hidden Treasures plays first, don't expect to "coward block" with Trembling Demon.
+1 totally.  The "this battle" sets the range to before TD entered battle.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: BubbleBoy on December 29, 2009, 11:08:54 AM
So TD's trigger actually reaches into the past?
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: SirNobody on December 29, 2009, 11:15:48 AM
Hey,

It's a condition, not a trigger.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 29, 2009, 11:16:45 AM
Since the question is whether or not any enhancements were played in the battle, which would be an end of battle decision, I don't see how the trigger/condition would not be reaching into the past.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: BubbleBoy on December 29, 2009, 11:21:27 AM
Since the question is whether or not any enhancements were played in the battle, which would be an end of battle decision, I don't see how the trigger/condition would not be reaching into the past.
I look at things gramatically. In the English language, are played refers to anything played from that time forward, not anything in the past. Otherwise, it would have been have been played. Am I right here at least?
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 29, 2009, 11:24:19 AM
That I cannot answer, since I am a Math Teacher, not Grammar Teacher.  ;)
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 29, 2009, 12:12:44 PM
That's correct. A literal interpretation of the card will always yield a ruling of "from this point forward." I am just wondering if that's the actual ruling.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 29, 2009, 12:18:46 PM
However, the gameplay sequencing interpretation would be that the "condition" of whether any enhancements were played this battle would not be decided until the end of battle, and would encompass the whole battle.

i.e. The battle is over. I want to meet the conditions of TD so I can use the SA. The question is now: "Was a good enhancement played this battle?"
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 29, 2009, 01:00:21 PM
But that's not what the SA on TD says. "Is" is not past-tense. When the battle is resolved, if we're going by the grammar on TD, the question would not be "was an Enhancement played," but "was an Enhancement played after TD entered battle?"
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 29, 2009, 01:13:24 PM
... if we're going by the grammar on TD, ...

I'm not so sure that grammar is going to be the deciding factor.  ;)

However, I will concede the point. I still would rule otherwise, but I am willing to take the side of grammar if that is what the PTBs choose.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Master KChief on December 29, 2009, 01:21:11 PM
ah, i never saw it that way. good point pol/bb.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on December 29, 2009, 01:36:45 PM
Silly pol... you don't use English Grammar to rule cards!  ;)
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: SirNobody on December 29, 2009, 03:41:24 PM
Hey,

The battle begins when the Hero enters the field of battle, not when the Evil Character blocks.  If Jacob, ET or a green prophet with Hidden Treasures plays first, don't expect to "coward block" with Trembling Demon.

This is correct.  Cards are often worded grammatically based on the usual case not based on all cases, so an unusual case like an enhancement played off of ET before a blocker is presented doesn't fit quite right with the grammar of Trembling Demon, but does qualify as satisfying the condition.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 30, 2009, 01:46:11 AM
"Doesn't fit quite right" in this case is Maly cutsie for "doesn't fit in the least, at all." Bryon or Schaef, could you confirm that the official special ability on TD is different than what it says? Perhaps we can issue a "play as," if that is the case?
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: TimMierz on December 30, 2009, 09:45:17 AM
"If your homework is done by 8:00, you can have ice cream."

If a kid did his homework before his parent said the above statement, he's entitled to ice cream, isn't he? Seems like the same thing as Trembling Demon.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: BubbleBoy on December 30, 2009, 09:51:33 AM
In that case, the reason the kid would still get the ice cream is simply because it can be easily stated that finishing your homework is always better to be done sooner than later.

However, I can see your side as well.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 30, 2009, 10:13:01 AM
If ice cream is involved, you might as well throw out the REG, rulebook, and pertinent grammar rules. I'm getting the ice cream and nothing is going to stop me.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 30, 2009, 10:13:21 AM
"If your homework is done by 8:00, you can have ice cream."

If a kid did his homework before his parent said the above statement, he's entitled to ice cream, isn't he? Seems like the same thing as Trembling Demon.
Actually, in Redemption terms, [homework] would have already completed and I would again argue that "is done" would not apply to a prior [homework]. You also have the difficulty of the fact that TD is a negative and your example is a positive. If your boss says, "if no customer rings the satisfaction bell today, you're fired," you'd better hope someone rings the bell after he says that, regardless of if someone had before that day. As an aside, this is why I find real-world examples ridiculous when trying to figure out Redemption rules, and will only use one to show that another is not definitive. The question is not the check, but the targeting of the check based on the grammar.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on December 30, 2009, 10:39:06 AM
But is done refers to the current condition of that homework. So Is done would still work on that  ;) But with TD I could see it from both sides of view. Either way would be fine with me...
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: TimMierz on December 30, 2009, 10:58:36 AM
I give up, I'm joining YMT for ice cream. We're in the South, it's still above freezing here. :)
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 30, 2009, 12:03:52 PM
I give up, I'm joining YMT for ice cream. We're in the South, it's still above freezing here. :)
But its more tasty when its below 0
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on December 30, 2009, 01:37:09 PM
do weapon-class enhancements placed on a hero before battle count as an enhancement played in battle?
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 30, 2009, 02:04:59 PM
Yes.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on December 30, 2009, 03:35:26 PM
IDK if there has been a ruling on that, but Im kinda torn on it. On one hand, it activated in battle, so it could be "played." On the other hand, it was not played INTO battle from hand... it was played before battle.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 30, 2009, 05:13:56 PM
The definitive ruling on Weapons and previously place Enhancements is that they are not "played" when their bearer enters battle. Therefore circumventing a lot of problematic DD questions.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on December 30, 2009, 09:32:43 PM
but they count as the last enh (last I knew)
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: BubbleBoy on December 31, 2009, 10:20:55 AM
They're the last played, but not the last played in battle.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 31, 2009, 11:45:40 AM
For some reason, they aren't Played for the purposes of DD, but they are played for the purposes of a "Negate Last."
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Bryon on December 31, 2009, 04:24:18 PM
Tim is correct.  Understand it as "If no good enhancement is (or was) played this battle, protect..."
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: sepjazzwarrior on December 31, 2009, 05:22:37 PM
so wait, does a weapon stop trembeling demon?
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Bryon on January 01, 2010, 12:26:42 AM
Only if it was played in that battle.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Prof Underwood on January 01, 2010, 03:15:57 PM
Only if it was played in that battle.
So are you saying that if an enh was "placed" on a character who then goes into battle and it activates before being blocked by TD, then TD wouldn't protect?  But if a WC GE was "put" on a character who then goes into battle and it activates before being blocked by TD, then TD WOULD still protect?
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: TheHobbit13 on January 01, 2010, 04:18:46 PM
I think he is saying if you play the Wc enhancement in territory and then enter battle trembling still protects lost souls, but if you attack with a little warrior then play the weapon after they block the protect doesn't work.
Title: Re: Trembling Demon
Post by: Prof Underwood on January 01, 2010, 10:20:55 PM
I think he is saying if you play the Wc enhancement in territory and then enter battle trembling still protects lost souls, but if you attack with a little warrior then play the weapon after they block the protect doesn't work.
If he's saying that, then he is also making the distinction that I just asked about regarding "placed" enhs and "put" WC enhs.  The apparent inconsistency is what led to my question.
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