Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: LukeChips on October 15, 2014, 12:56:46 PM
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What does the redemption term toss mean?
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From the wiki:
"A toss ability allows a player to play an enhancement in a different way than normal; instead of activating the numbers and/or special abilities of the enhancement, the enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character by X/X (where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement)."
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Try the REG (http://cactusgamedesign.com/downloads/REG_PDF_v1.0.2.pdf) for information about specific abilities, and let us know if something is unclear from there. Quoting from that entry:
Toss
Last Updated: 3/4/2013
Released: 3/4/2013
General Description
A toss ability allows a player to discard an enhancement to decrease an opposing character in battle.
How to Play
A toss ability allows a player to play an enhancement in a different way than usual; instead of activating the numbers or special abilities of the enhancement, the enhancement is discarded to decrease an opposing character by X/X (where X is the strength of the discarded enhancement).
Default Conditions
Enhancements disards to the toss ability must come from hand.
The strength of the discarded enhancement is determined by the face valye of the card.
Targets for the decrease must be in battle and controlled by opponent.
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Thanks guys. This is really helpful. I just thought you discard the enhancement.
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So toss allows you to discard to the toss ability or forces you to?
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So toss allows you to discard to the toss ability or forces you to?
Depends on how the ability is worded. Both we have so far (Foreign Spearmen (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Foreign_Spearman_(RA3)) and Peace (http://redemption.wikia.com/wiki/Peace_(TEC))) cause ALL enhancements played to be tossed. But if an ability were worded "You may toss an enhancement..." then it would be optional as it states.
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The default conditions says that the tossed enhancements must come from hand, does that mean weapons don't get tossed when they enter battle on a character when the battle is in a Toss condition?
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That is the default, but weapons are a card type where they are 'played' from play instead of from hand ('placed' on a character and 'played' when they enter battle). The definition of playing a weapon takes precedence, and the weapon is tossed if the Toss ability is already in place.
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I wouldn't think so, but I'm definitely no elder.
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That is the default, but weapons are a card type where they are 'played' from play instead of from hand ('placed' on a character and 'played' when they enter battle). The definition of playing a weapon takes precedence, and the weapon is tossed if the Toss ability is already in place.
That's what I thought, but was confused by the default conditions in the Toss rules. Really it would make more sense to get rid of the entire line since that's just the default for how playing enhancements works.
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If the strength is dynamic (x) does it still decrease them by the x amount?
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If the strength is dynamic (x) does it still decrease them by the x amount?
I can't see why it wouldn't
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Since the card is discarded, and the decrease is instant, it does not dynamically change the value later, but it certainly has that value when played.
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Is the discarding the enhancement part of the cost of Toss? Can I instead the discard and still receive the -X/X?
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Is the discarding the enhancement part of the cost of Toss? Can I instead the discard and still receive the -X/X?
I am pretty sure that the answer is no.
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You can never instead a cost and still get the benefit. For instance if you play grapes on an NT Evil character and your opp uses Herod's temple, the shuffle and new battle attempt never trigger.
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If your hand is protected from discard/opponents do you play the enhancements normally or does Toss get through that sort of protection also?
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If your hand is protected from discard/opponents do you play the enhancements normally or does Toss get through that sort of protection also?
I don't think Toss would overrule that kind of stuff.
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Toss would still happen because you are still playing the enhancement. Toss just changes the effect. You are not forced to do anything so the protection of hand and deck is irrelevant.
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^Correct.
Toss doesn't target your cards for discard, it's simply causing them to be "tossed" which is playing them in a different way. Tossing a card is playing it, not discarding it.
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However, I believe we ruled it that Thaddeus would stop Foreign Spearmen (if the X were large enough) because he also protects cards in play, and thus protects the enhancements wherever they are from the Toss effect.
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Maybe that should be revisited then because it seems a bit convoluted (especially since we just ruled that the decrease aspect of TOSS happens regardless of protection or immunity).
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So just say toss is regardless of effect. It's concise and makes the ability a tad bit more playable on D.
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Maybe that should be revisited then because it seems a bit convoluted (especially since we just ruled that the decrease aspect of TOSS happens regardless of protection or immunity).
It is the right ruling by the current rules. Thad protects cards in play, and that is where they are when they are 'played'. They are also protected in hand if we're looking at all points along the way. You cannot instead discard them if they are protected.
So just say toss is regardless of effect. It's concise and makes the ability a tad bit more playable on D.
The recent update to Toss does not include that clause for the 'regardless', but that's a discussion we could have.
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You can never instead a cost and still get the benefit. For instance if you play grapes on an NT Evil character and your opp uses Herod's temple, the shuffle and new battle attempt never trigger.
I've been out of the game for a year and this makes no sense to me, can anyone explain why if I pay a cost and someone instead's it that it doesn't count?
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You can never instead a cost and still get the benefit. For instance if you play grapes on an NT Evil character and your opp uses Herod's temple, the shuffle and new battle attempt never trigger.
I've been out of the game for a year and this makes no sense to me, can anyone explain why if I pay a cost and someone instead's it that it doesn't count?
Do you not get the Grapes part or the Toss part?
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You can never instead a cost and still get the benefit. For instance if you play grapes on an NT Evil character and your opp uses Herod's temple, the shuffle and new battle attempt never trigger.
I've been out of the game for a year and this makes no sense to me, can anyone explain why if I pay a cost and someone instead's it that it doesn't count?
Because if someone insteads your paying the cost, then in game terms it was never payed and thus, no benefit.
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You can never instead a cost and still get the benefit. For instance if you play grapes on an NT Evil character and your opp uses Herod's temple, the shuffle and new battle attempt never trigger.
I've been out of the game for a year and this makes no sense to me, can anyone explain why if I pay a cost and someone instead's it that it doesn't count?
Because you never paid the cost. Expounding on Praecep's answer, whatever was supposed to happen initially 'never happened' and 'instead' you have a new effect.
If I play Tenants Kill the Son, it says "Discard a hero to draw a card." If you use Herod's Temple to 'instead' the discard, then it never actually happened, because 'instead' you discarded a card of matching brigade and the top X of your deck. I don't get to draw a card, because I never discarded a hero.
Cost/Benefit and Conditional abilities are like that, where you have to actually meet what's on the card to get the related things to happen.
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How would TEC Peace's Toss ability work with Widows' Tables. Would enhancements discarded return to Tables for an infinite loop if you're using a deacon?
TEC Peace
Place on your clay or blue Hero: When this Hero is in battle alone, toss all Enhancements played this battle. Cannot be interrupted.
Widows' Tables
If a clay Enhancement is discarded (or underdecked) from your hand during battle, you may place it here instead. Your deacons may use Enhancements from here as if played from hand.
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How would TEC Peace's Toss ability work with Widows' Tables. Would enhancements discarded return to Tables for an infinite loop if you're using a deacon?
No, as with the other stuff mentioned above, Toss is a cost-benefit because it says that you 'discard the enhancement to decrease.'
If the discard is insteaded, that means it never happened, so you don't get the decrease.
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How would TEC Peace's Toss ability work with Widows' Tables. Would enhancements discarded return to Tables for an infinite loop if you're using a deacon?
No, as with the other stuff mentioned above, Toss is a cost-benefit because it says that you 'discard the enhancement to decrease.'
If the discard is insteaded, that means it never happened, so you don't get the decrease.
Its the same with primary objective and widows tables, right?
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Its the same with primary objective and widows tables, right?
That's a different discussion altogether for the other thread where that is going on, and it is still being discussed to make sure that everyone is on the same page ;)
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Its the same with primary objective and widows tables, right?
That's a different discussion altogether for the other thread where that is going on, and it is still being discussed to make sure that everyone is on the same page ;)
Ok, So the elders are debating it.
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Okay, so I've been looking through my TEC cards thinking about what everyone has said about Widows' Tables not working with Peace (Toss). I noticed 3 cards from TEC that all had similar wording in their special ability that sounds like you could still instead a cost and get the effect. Parmenas, Nicolas of Antioch and Fortunatus. All three allow you to discard a clay card (or enhancement in either case) from hand to do an effect. But they also include text referencing to Widows' Tables insteading the cost and still getting the effect.
Parmenas - you may discard a clay enhancement from hand (or place it on widows tables) to negate an evil card and return it to owner's hand.
Nicolas of Antioch - negate evil character with toughess less than x. You may discard a clay enhancement from hand (or place it on widows tables) to search your deck or discard pile for a clay convert enhancment.
X= # of your deacons
Fortunatus - look @ the top x cards of deck: you may discard a clay card from hand (or place a clay enhancement on widows tables) to take one to hand, then underdeck the rest. Cannot be interrupted.
X = # of your corinth heroes in play.
Feed back?
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Those specific cards have alternate conditions for satisfying the 'cost'. Either one can be done and still count as the cost, that is how they are worded. And as browarod stated, we already have some cards that do that in different ways like Herod's Temple, but this one gives you two choices rather than an ability and an instead in a specific circumstance.
Those cards you mentioned were intentionally designed to be boosted when you play them with Tables out.