Author Topic: Throne of David and blocked (Read 5785 times)

galadgawyn · « **on:** May 01, 2012, 12:15:26 PM »

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Seven Wicked Spirits (FF)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Orange • Ability: 7 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: You may interrupt all Fortresses and exchange this Evil Character with any other Evil Character in play or set-aside area. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Demon • Verse: Luke 11:26 • Availability: Faith of our Fathers booster packs (None)

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The Throne of David (RA)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Play As: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an Enhancement that is from the O.T. and purple brigade. • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play.

The qestion is what exactly triggers Throne of David?

If I block with 7WS which interrupts Throne and then bring in other characters, by the time Throne is active again, the evil characters are already in battle. Similar situation: he rescues, I block, he bands in King Solomon to search and play Throne of David. Does it trigger with evil characters already in battle? What if I then band in another evil character?

What if I block with a banding chain of evil characters? does it trigger just once?

I've been encountering this recently so some clarification would be nice.

Minion of Jesus · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:36:52 PM »

If EC's are already battle, throne probably does not work. However, I am not an Elder, so don't trust me...

Chris · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2012, 01:49:22 PM »

Throne activates after all blocking is finished. It doesn't interrupt any evil character's special ability, so in your example, after SWS's ability completes, bringing in a new evil character, and that character's ability completes (along with any subsequent character abilities from characters having been banded in), THEN TToD activates.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:03:35 PM »

galadgawyn · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:10:44 PM »

Not true. TToD activates when you place it in your territory. What you're describing is when TToD TRIGGERS. For that part your right but it triggers after characters have blocked when it was active before they blocked.

My question is partly about if it triggers when TToD is activated after the characters block. Because SWS interrupts TToD, I think it effectively would be the same situation as Solomon bringing TToD out and activating it post block but I'm not sure.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:16:34 PM »

SWS is just staying forts for a momment. He isn't int and preventing forts so all the forts would reactivate after the exchange is done. (The Int is on the character so you can take an evil character from your opponent that would otherwise be protected)

galadgawyn · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:20:50 PM »

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so all the forts would reactivate after the exchange is done

Exactly. So the fort becomes active AFTER the evil character has blocked when normally it is active BEFORE.

Chris · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:27:17 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 01, 2012, 02:20:50 PM

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so all the forts would reactivate after the exchange is done

Exactly. So the fort becomes active AFTER the evil character has blocked when normally it is active BEFORE.

No, I don't believe this is the case. SWS's interrupt ability only lasts until he exchanges, because it's not a negate, and it doesn't do anything to the fort itself. At that point, the interrupt is finished. I'm reasonably sure about that, and if it doesn't, then it definitely kicks back in after any banding is finished and all character abilities complete, so it would work.

galadgawyn · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2012, 02:33:50 PM »

TToD may still work but I don't think you're understanding the situation. SWS's interrupt ability does last until the exchanged character's ability completes. This I'm sure of. I understand and agree that TToD would be active AFTER the evil characters are in battle but the point is whether it TRIGGERS at that point.

If it helps, ignore SWS and look at the Solomon example.

Part of my question here is that TToD, to me, reads as if you're looking for something to happen in the future and when it does, then it triggers. What if the blocking is in the past? Does it check for "if this is true" or "if this happens"? I hope you see difference of what I'm saying.

Professoralstad · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2012, 03:03:30 PM »

I would rule that TToD reactivating after the EC has blocked (such as in the case of SWS) that it would not trigger.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2012, 05:11:29 PM »

Would TToD take out Uzzah?

Just thinking through it, would TToD give you inish to int or negate Uzzah?

mjwolfe · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2012, 05:37:05 PM »

Quote from: Professoralstad on May 01, 2012, 03:03:30 PM

I would rule that TToD reactivating after the EC has blocked (such as in the case of SWS) that it would not trigger.

Doesn't TToD reactivate as part of the completion of SWS' special ability that started when SWS entered battle? The trigger for a character blocking then happens AFTER the re-activation of TToD, so TToD is still triggered by it.

Mike

browarod · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2012, 05:58:57 PM »

From what I know of triggers, I would disagree with Profalstad. It seems that the trigger of TToD actually trips when the first EC enters battle. However, it has to wait to resolve until all special abilities on the blocking evil character(s) finish (and any subsequent abilities that are related). SWS interrupts that, but unless you swap for an EC that negates or discards TToD, I don't see why the trigger wouldn't still be there when the exchanged-for EC finishes. Having to wait to resolve til after the exchanged EC is done is no different than having to wait for the original EC to finish. At least to me....

Redoubter · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2012, 07:39:18 PM »

I would disagree with the Prof actually based on the most recent ruling update regarding when abilities activate, but I am not as certain as I'd like.

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Triggers have to wait for active special abilities to finish first. Triggered abilities are started by an instant event ("when X happens, do Y") or are manually triggered ("at any time X is true, you may do Y" abilities).

Conditions do NOT have to wait for active special abilities to finish. Conditions are always checking for an ongoing state and always result in ongoing abilities ("while X is true, give ongoing effect Y").

Card Trigger Effect Ability to insert during SAs
Unknown Nation Manual Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Gates of Samaria Automatic Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Bearing Bad News Automatic Ongoing No, never for triggered abilities
Iron Pan none Ongoing Yes, it updates constantly

Another example of an "always working" ongoing check in Redemption is X/X values on characters like Silly Women or The Angel with the Secret Name. Those Xs can change during other effects, too. They don't wait and do checks after each card completes. They are fluid.

For triggered abilities like TToD (and it is an automatic triggered ability, comparable to GoS above), they never insert their ability during another cards SA. Thus, whenever an EC presents in battle (no matter who that EC is, mind you), if they have an SA it resolves immediately and then you check the ability on the triggered ability.

In the case of Uzzah, by the time TToD is able to activate (that is, after his SA completes) there is no blocker. Therefore, you cannot use its ability. It couldn't activate when the block occurred, and now it has no one to trigger off of.

In the case of SWS, TToD is going to be waiting until after the SA on SWS anyway in order to trigger. It cannot trigger before then anyway. It checks after the exchange is made, and now it finds that its condition is met. It should result in a draw + play. The interrupt actually does nothing, because the rule change means that essentially all special ability EC 'interrupt' it, or delay its activation until they are done.

Praeceps · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2012, 11:49:43 PM »

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 01, 2012, 12:15:26 PM

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The Throne of David (RA)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an O.T. purple brigade Enhancement. • Play As: When your purple brigade King is blocked, if no Evil Character in battle has a weapon, you may draw X cards and play an Enhancement that is from the O.T. and purple brigade. • Identifiers: X = the number of evil brigades your opponent has in play.

It doesn't say when a blocker is presented, it says when the Hero is blocked so I think that once Solomon enters battle, puts Throne into play and all waiting abilities complete, then Throne would trigger without having to have a new EC presented. As long as Solomon is still being blocked Throne would trigger.

Redoubter · « **Reply #15 on:** May 02, 2012, 12:55:37 PM »

The problem with "blocked" is that it is not the same thing as "blocking". "Blocked" or "Blocks" is the action of placing an EC in the field of battle. "Blocking" refers to any time that an EC is in battle blocking a hero. If Solomon were to be banded in, and you dropped TToD in territory, the EC are currently "Blocking" but he is not "Blocked". Does that make sense?

I still maintain that the new ruling changes how this card should be addressed as far as when it activates (after the SA of any EC) and that SWS would still trigger it. Does anyone have anything to counter that?

Jmbeers · « **Reply #16 on:** May 02, 2012, 07:49:21 PM »

This is how I've always played it.

I've also played it that if an opponent adds a character to battle off an artifact or from a site I'll use TToD again.

Praeceps · « **Reply #17 on:** May 03, 2012, 12:58:14 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 02, 2012, 12:55:37 PM

The problem with "blocked" is that it is not the same thing as "blocking". "Blocked" or "Blocks" is the action of placing an EC in the field of battle. "Blocking" refers to any time that an EC is in battle blocking a hero. If Solomon were to be banded in, and you dropped TToD in territory, the EC are currently "Blocking" but he is not "Blocked". Does that make sense?

I still maintain that the new ruling changes how this card should be addressed as far as when it activates (after the SA of any EC) and that SWS would still trigger it. Does anyone have anything to counter that?

No, no it doesn't. So you're saying that he's being blocked while he's not blocked? That makes absolutely zero sense, and I can find no set of definitions to support your argument. In the rule book/REG Blocked and Blocking both only point back to block which doesn't differentiate between the two. That's like saying that since we're not allowed to work on the sabbath, but sometimes you just really have to go somewhere, if you take two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step... etc. then you're not really traveling anywhere, thus your not really working.

Solomon is in battle. An Evil Character that is not negating him is across the battle field stopping him. Sounds like he's blocked to me.

Wings of Music · « **Reply #18 on:** May 03, 2012, 02:31:49 AM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 01, 2012, 07:39:18 PM

I would disagree with the Prof actually based on the most recent ruling update regarding when abilities activate, but I am not as certain as I'd like.

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Triggers have to wait for active special abilities to finish first. Triggered abilities are started by an instant event ("when X happens, do Y") or are manually triggered ("at any time X is true, you may do Y" abilities).

Conditions do NOT have to wait for active special abilities to finish. Conditions are always checking for an ongoing state and always result in ongoing abilities ("while X is true, give ongoing effect Y").

Card Trigger Effect Ability to insert during SAs
Unknown Nation Manual Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Gates of Samaria Automatic Instant No, never for triggered abilities
Bearing Bad News Automatic Ongoing No, never for triggered abilities
Iron Pan none Ongoing Yes, it updates constantly

Another example of an "always working" ongoing check in Redemption is X/X values on characters like Silly Women or The Angel with the Secret Name. Those Xs can change during other effects, too. They don't wait and do checks after each card completes. They are fluid.

For triggered abilities like TToD (and it is an automatic triggered ability, comparable to GoS above), they never insert their ability during another cards SA. Thus, whenever an EC presents in battle (no matter who that EC is, mind you), if they have an SA it resolves immediately and then you check the ability on the triggered ability.

In the case of Uzzah, by the time TToD is able to activate (that is, after his SA completes) there is no blocker. Therefore, you cannot use its ability. It couldn't activate when the block occurred, and now it has no one to trigger off of.

In the case of SWS, TToD is going to be waiting until after the SA on SWS anyway in order to trigger. It cannot trigger before then anyway. It checks after the exchange is made, and now it finds that its condition is met. It should result in a draw + play. The interrupt actually does nothing, because the rule change means that essentially all special ability EC 'interrupt' it, or delay its activation until they are done.

I agree with this sentiment.

browarod · « **Reply #19 on:** May 03, 2012, 12:12:53 PM »

"Blocking" is the only defensive term that is ongoing. "Block" and "Blocked" are always a singular action. The only exception is if a card says "while blocked by" or something similar which can be reworded as "while X is blocking." TToD does not trigger if an additional EC is banded into battle, or at least it shouldn't.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #20 on:** May 03, 2012, 04:32:42 PM »

Wasn't talking about activating it off a band but I have activated it in the following.

I make an Ra with TToD with a purple King, opponent presents blocker and the Sa completes, I draw off TToD and then play AotL. My opponent uses Unknown Nation and puts a character in battle who's Sa completes, I'll then activate TToD again.

browarod · « **Reply #21 on:** May 03, 2012, 05:03:23 PM »

Actually, according to the REG definition of "block," you would actually get to reuse TToD even if it's a band.

Quote from: REG

Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Whenever an Evil Character enters the Field of Battle against a Hero (regardless of what point the battle is), that is considered a block.

I know the REG is wrong sometimes, but I didn't know it could be this wrong as I've never seen anyone play it that way.

Chris · « **Reply #22 on:** May 03, 2012, 06:41:32 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 03, 2012, 05:03:23 PM

Actually, according to the REG definition of "block," you would actually get to reuse TToD even if it's a band.

Quote from: REG
Blocking is the attempt to prevent a rescue. Only Evil Characters may block. Whenever an Evil Character enters the Field of Battle against a Hero (regardless of what point the battle is), that is considered a block.

I know the REG is wrong sometimes, but I didn't know it could be this wrong as I've never seen anyone play it that way.

My guess is that TToD doesn't activate until after all evil abilities have completed, so that when it kicks in, there are a lot of evil characters in battle, but only one block has registered.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:07:31 PM »

But that would mean TToD would activate off of a banding enhancement such as lurking.

Redoubter · « **Reply #24 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:10:24 PM »

Quote from: Jmbeers on May 03, 2012, 11:07:31 PM

But that would mean TToD would activate off of a banding enhancement such as lurking.

Truth, because that is an instance of "is blocked".

"Block", "Blocks, and "Blocked" refers to when the EC is presented (and I content after all SA from that/those EC are resolved before triggering external cards like TToD). "Blocking" or "While XYZ Blocks" is ongoing and refers to the state of blocking.

So think about the first set as instant, and the latter as ongoing.

Praeceps · « **Reply #25 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:10:57 PM »

Quote from: browarod on May 03, 2012, 12:12:53 PM

"Blocking" is the only defensive term that is ongoing. "Block" and "Blocked" are always a singular action. The only exception is if a card says "while blocked by" or something similar which can be reworded as "while X is blocking." TToD does not trigger if an additional EC is banded into battle, or at least it shouldn't.

Show me where you are getting this. I can find no rule that says this anywhere.

Redoubter · « **Reply #26 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:20:04 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on May 03, 2012, 11:10:57 PM

Quote from: browarod on May 03, 2012, 12:12:53 PM
"Blocking" is the only defensive term that is ongoing. "Block" and "Blocked" are always a singular action. The only exception is if a card says "while blocked by" or something similar which can be reworded as "while X is blocking." TToD does not trigger if an additional EC is banded into battle, or at least it shouldn't.

Show me where you are getting this. I can find no rule that says this anywhere.

Read the abilities they go with. "While blocking" is an ongoing state. "Is blocked" is an action. It's right there in the way the abilities are worded. This ruling goes with the Herod's Dungeon rulings, which have all agreed with this concept, that there is a difference between Block/s/ed and Blocking.

browarod · « **Reply #27 on:** May 04, 2012, 09:28:20 AM »

I agree with you that it's being treated like that, I'm merely pointing out that the REG doesn't currently support ruling it as such.

Praeceps · « **Reply #28 on:** May 04, 2012, 01:57:42 PM »

Quote from: Redoubter on May 03, 2012, 11:20:04 PM

Quote from: Praeceps on May 03, 2012, 11:10:57 PM
Quote from: browarod on May 03, 2012, 12:12:53 PM
"Blocking" is the only defensive term that is ongoing. "Block" and "Blocked" are always a singular action. The only exception is if a card says "while blocked by" or something similar which can be reworded as "while X is blocking." TToD does not trigger if an additional EC is banded into battle, or at least it shouldn't.

Show me where you are getting this. I can find no rule that says this anywhere.

Read the abilities they go with. "While blocking" is an ongoing state. "Is blocked" is an action. It's right there in the way the abilities are worded. This ruling goes with the Herod's Dungeon rulings, which have all agreed with this concept, that there is a difference between Block/s/ed and Blocking.

I ask you to show me where the rule/definition/post separating these terms are and you tell me that that's just how it is. Why? Where's this rule or ruling? If you are being blocked, then you are blocked. That's simply common sense. Saying, "Well, read the abilities. One says 'Blocked' while the other says 'is being blocked' so clearly they are different. In that case, I say that Nazzy can't stop AutO from getting Gideon out of your deck. Nazzy states that it stops searches. Angel isn't searching, he's exchanging. These are two different terms, thus they must be two different abilities. If that's the case then Nazzy can't stop exchanges, just searches.

Redoubter · « **Reply #29 on:** May 04, 2012, 08:29:37 PM »

Quote from: Praeceps on May 04, 2012, 01:57:42 PM

Nazzy states that it stops searches. Angel isn't searching, he's exchanging. These are two different terms, thus they must be two different abilities. If that's the case then Nazzy can't stop exchanges, just searches.

Sorry, your argument has a fallacy in that Exchange has been defined to have a Search ability as part of it. It's specifically in there so...sorry, you'll have to come up with something else.

You can refer back to any of the Herod's Dungeon rulings for this. The card says "Blocking", and that's where it has been differentiated in the past. Sorry that you don't agree with it, but it meshes with the logic, the grammar, and (most importantly) previous rulings. Unless the Elders change their minds, that's the way it is

SirNobody · « **Reply #30 on:** May 08, 2012, 04:10:46 PM »

Hey,

The Throne of David can only triggered when the initial blocker is presented. ("blocked" has multiple possible definitions, the presentation of the initial blocker is the definition being used here.) It's been ruled that way pretty much since it came out. It would probably be a good idea to give it play as that clarifies that point.

In the Seven Wicked Spirits example, The Throne of David is triggered when Seven Wicked Spirits enters battle, before Seven Wicked Spirits takes effect. So both the triggered effect of The Throne of David and the ability of Seven Wicked Spirits are "queued" to take effect at that point. An activating ability always takes precedent over a triggered ability so Seven Wicked Spirits happens first (we all know that much). When Seven Wicked Spirits interrupts The Throne of David it's waiting to be carried out, so after the new blocking character's ability takes effect and the interrupt ends The Throne of David is reinstated, still waiting to be carried out. At that point all other abilities are complete, so The Throne of David's triggered ability finally gets to take effect. Since there's a state-based condition attached to the event based trigger, you have to make sure that at this point the state-based condition is satisfied (i.e. there is no evil character in battle with a weapon) and if it is, the draw and play happens.

So the interrupt on Seven Wicked Spirits does not hinder The Throne of David's ability to function.

Also on a side note, The Throne of David does kick in in response to an Uzzah block. The trigger goes off when Uzzah enters battle, he discards himself, The Throne of David takes effect, and since there is no Evil Character in battle, there obviously isn't an evil character with a weapon, so the draw and play happens.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Redoubter · « **Reply #31 on:** May 08, 2012, 06:39:33 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on May 08, 2012, 04:10:46 PM

Also on a side note, The Throne of David does kick in in response to an Uzzah block. The trigger goes off when Uzzah enters battle, he discards himself, The Throne of David takes effect, and since there is no Evil Character in battle, there obviously isn't an evil character with a weapon, so the draw and play happens.

This part, while intuitive, goes against what I had been told as far as an Uzzah (or other) chump-block activating TToD. I had always had it ruled to me that TToD cannot activate because at the time of its activation there is no blocking EC.

I understand the reasoning, but is this something that Elders all agree on? Because I'm pretty sure I've seen others say the opposite (of course searching the forums isn't working still...great).

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #32 on:** May 08, 2012, 09:43:50 PM »

I'm still trying to totally grasp the "trigger" vs "condition thing myself, and would appreciate Tim (or another elder) sharing a bit more on this.

Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"? If it is a trigger, then I could see Redoubter's point that with the new ruling, it seems that there would be no blocker before Uzzah entered battle, and then there would be no blocker after his SA finished either. Therefore if TToD doesn't do anything in the middle of that process then it never really "sees" that a block happened, and therefore wouldn't trigger.

The only way I can see TToD being "triggered" by a block in this case would be if we say that there is a moment in the battle when the EC has entered the battle to block and BEFORE the EC's special ability happens. Is that correct?

galadgawyn · « **Reply #33 on:** May 09, 2012, 01:14:16 AM »

The problem I have with that and this quote

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The Throne of David is triggered when Seven Wicked Spirits enters battle, before Seven Wicked Spirits takes effect.

is that before it was said that a characters ability happened simultaneously as a part of them entering battle.

In other words a character hasn't entered battle yet if they're special ability hasn't activated. There is no gap between them entering battle and their special ability activating. They're not even separate activities; they are one and the same action.

Now I don't know if this is still the definition but I know it had been debated and defined that way previously. I can't remember what for but I think it was with things like Hidden Treasures, Rescuer's Choice, and Every Man's Sword (before current errata).

That is old and maybe no longer valid but I prefer continuity so I dislike when rulings just fade away and new ones spring up like the previous was never there.

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Abijah, son of Samuel (Pi)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 4 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time opponent plays an Enhancement in battle, you may draw a card. •

If I play Reach and another card, then will they draw 1, 2, or 0? By the time Abijah reactivates, no enhancement is being played so I don't see why they would draw any. I think this is the same as TToD.

Quote

The Throne of David can only triggered when the initial blocker is presented. ("blocked" has multiple possible definitions, the presentation of the initial blocker is the definition being used here.)

I'm still not sure if what this means if Solomon brings TToD out after the initial blocker is presented.

STAMP · « **Reply #34 on:** May 09, 2012, 11:54:38 AM »

Itchy trigger finger is a condition. That help?

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #35 on:** May 09, 2012, 01:42:39 PM »

What Tim said goes against years of ruling it the other way. It also doesn't square with the fact that characters aren't considered to be in battle, or at least to be blocking/have blocked, until their SA's have completed.

SirNobody · « **Reply #36 on:** May 09, 2012, 02:23:37 PM »

Hey,

Think of battle kinda like a classroom discussion. Multiple people have something they want to add to the conversation, but only one can talk at a time. The students raise their hand when they have something to say, the teacher calls on students in roughly the order they raised their hands, and when the teacher calls on the student the student gets to talk.

The student's are the abilities on the various cards that want to talk. The student's hand is raised when the requirement for activating the ability happens (the trigger goes off, the character enters battle, the enhancement is played, etc). The teacher is the game, it dictates the order in which the students get to talk. The student being called on and talking is when the ability is carried out.

Seven Wicked Spirits enters battle, thus it raises it's hand, The Throne of David sees Seven Wicked Spirits enter battle, and raises it's hand. Seven Wicked Spirits is called on by the teacher and starts to talk (carry out it's ability), as it is making it's point (the exchange happens) another evil character, say Simon the Magician, wants to add to the discussion and raises it's hand. When Seven Wicked Spirits is "done" the teacher calls on someone else to talk, the teacher chooses Simon the Magician to talk next, because he's continuing the point made by Seven Wicked Spirits. Once Simon the Magician is done the game chooses someone else to talk, The Throne of David is then the only one with it's hand up, so it gets called on.

In more technical terms, it's a priority queue, where abilities take effect in the order they meet the requirements to activate, with the "priority" element that abilities that are activating always take precedence over abilities that are being triggered. (There are other priority elements such as weapons activate after characters, and choose the blocker happens last, but activate vs trigger is the main/first one.)

Triggers can go off in the middle of another ability. That is they can "raise their hand" when another card is "talking." But they have to wait until they are called on before they "happen." A dynamic condition is like a student standing up and leaving while the other student is talking. He's not adding anything to the conversation, so he doesn't have to wait his turn, he just does his thing while the other student is talking.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #37 on:** May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 08, 2012, 09:43:50 PM

Is TToD a "trigger" or a "condition"?

The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

The Throne of David is triggered when a blocker is presented, it then waits it's turn to take effect, when it gets to it's turn it then checks to see if the static condition is true (are there no evil weapons in battle) if the condition is satisfied it does it's thing, if the condition is not satisfied it doesn't do anything.

Quote from: galadgawyn on May 09, 2012, 01:14:16 AM

before it was said that a characters ability happened simultaneously as a part of them entering battle.

In other words a character hasn't entered battle yet if they're special ability hasn't activated. There is no gap between them entering battle and their special ability activating. They're not even separate activities; they are one and the same action.

I'm not exactly sure how or why we set it up this way, but in Redemption multiple things can happen "at the same time" and yet still happen in sequence. Seven Wicked Spirits enters battle, Seven Wicked Spirits begins to activate it's ability, and The Throne of David is Triggered all happen at the same time, but they happen in that order. (Note that Seven Wicked Spirits "begins to activate" before The Throne of David is triggered, but The Throne of David is triggered before you actually "do" any part of Seven Wicked Spirits ability.)

The idea that a character entering battle and it's ability taking effect being the same action and the first not being true until the second happened was popular for a while, and was official for a few days, but it was shot down rather quickly because it creates logical paradoxes.

Quote

Quote
Abijah, son of Samuel (Pi)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 4 / 7 • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time opponent plays an Enhancement in battle, you may draw a card. •

If I play Reach and another card, then will they draw 1, 2, or 0? By the time Abijah reactivates, no enhancement is being played so I don't see why they would draw any.

When Reach is played, before any of it actually happens, Abijah is triggered to draw a card. That draw doesn't happen until after Reach completes, but it is triggered before Reach happens. Reach then interrupts Abijah, making Abijah not active, and while it is inactive reach allows another card to be played. The other card is played while Abijah is not active, so it does not trigger Abijah again. Reach then completes, Abijah kicks back in, now Reach is done and Abijah is still triggered and waiting to draw, so he does. He draws 1.

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The Throne of David can only triggered when the initial blocker is presented. ("blocked" has multiple possible definitions, the presentation of the initial blocker is the definition being used here.)

I'm still not sure if what this means if Solomon brings TToD out after the initial blocker is presented.

It means that The Throne of David can only be triggered when the initial blocker is presented. If The Throne of David enters play after that moment in battle it cannot be triggered during that battle.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

SirNobody · « **Reply #38 on:** May 09, 2012, 02:30:33 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 09, 2012, 01:42:39 PM

What Tim said goes against years of ruling it the other way.

Which part of what I said do you believe goes against current rulings?

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It also doesn't square with the fact that characters aren't considered to be in battle, or at least to be blocking/have blocked, until their SA's have completed.

That is simply not true. And it can't be true, otherwise any ability that said "While blocking" wouldn't function. Or are you saying that Sabbath Breaker doesn't draw cards ever?

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Redoubter · « **Reply #39 on:** May 09, 2012, 02:32:17 PM »

Not sure how I feel about the order-of-operations as described there, but I don't think they are actually defined anywhere in the game rules. Is this a unified Elder ruling, or will we have to wait to hear back?

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM

It means that The Throne of David can only be triggered when the initial blocker is presented. If The Throne of David enters play after that moment in battle it cannot be triggered during that battle.

I did read through all of your posts, and may have missed it, but I don't remember the initial blocker being the only one to trigger. If I play Lurking mid-battle, then by all current rulings that EC "blocks", as that is the act of adding an EC to battle. Similar cards with similar wording have had this ruling, and it should not be that this card in particular does not follow the same rules. There is nothing on the card to say that TToD may only activate once, and as an instant trigger, it should trigger with each EC to enter battle (no matter when).

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:30:33 PM

Hey,

Quote from: Minister Polarius on May 09, 2012, 01:42:39 PM
What Tim said goes against years of ruling it the other way.

Which part of what I said do you believe goes against current rulings?

The part that TToD triggers off of a Uzzah that discarded itself with a SA goes against the status quo ruling I have seen since I've been around. I believe that is what he is referencing.

EDIT: Stupid quote killed the middle of my post...

SirNobody · « **Reply #40 on:** May 09, 2012, 04:06:28 PM »

Hey,

Quote from: Redoubter on May 09, 2012, 02:32:17 PM

Not sure how I feel about the order-of-operations as described there, but I don't think they are actually defined anywhere in the game rules. Is this a unified Elder ruling, or will we have to wait to hear back?

It has never been presented as a whole to all of the elders to be vetted out. But it has existed for several years and has come out periodically in bits and pieces, including being part of the background assumptions for the entire REG 2.0 project. You do not have to wait to hear back, unless an elder dissents about it here

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Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM
It means that The Throne of David can only be triggered when the initial blocker is presented. If The Throne of David enters play after that moment in battle it cannot be triggered during that battle.

I did read through all of your posts, and may have missed it, but I don't remember the initial blocker being the only one to trigger. If I play Lurking mid-battle, then by all current rulings that EC "blocks", as that is the act of adding an EC to battle. Similar cards with similar wording have had this ruling, and it should not be that this card in particular does not follow the same rules.

Quote from: SirNobody on May 08, 2012, 04:10:46 PM

The Throne of David can only triggered when the initial blocker is presented. ("blocked" has multiple possible definitions, the presentation of the initial blocker is the definition being used here.)

Priests of Christ has fairly similar wording and also only applies to the initial block. Banding an evil character in from hand does not trigger Priests of Christ. In general, I think evil cards tend to use the "is in battle opposed by a hero" definition of block while good cards tend to use the "step in battle where the person being attacked initially presents an evil character to oppose the attacking hero" definition.

Tschow,

Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly

Prof Underwood · « **Reply #41 on:** May 09, 2012, 06:40:41 PM »

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM

The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.

This is REALLY complicated. So we have "conditions" (ie. Iron Pan), "triggers" (ie. Unknown Nation), and "triggers with static conditions attached" (ie. Throne of David). I think there's got to be a simpler way to break all this down.

megamanlan · « **Reply #42 on:** May 09, 2012, 10:46:52 PM »

I'm officially confused now...

Drrek · « **Reply #43 on:** May 10, 2012, 03:49:26 PM »

Quote from: Prof Underwood on May 09, 2012, 06:40:41 PM

Quote from: SirNobody on May 09, 2012, 02:24:39 PM
The Throne of David is a trigger. The Throne of David is a tricky example because there is a static condition attached to the trigger. Static conditions function differently from dynamic conditions. Dynamic conditions (i.e. Iron Pan) can change back and forth because they go with ongoing abilities. Static conditions go with instant abilities so they only matter at the moment the instant ability happens (they are also often, but not always, something that cannot change). "If used by a prophet" is a classic example of a static condition.
This is REALLY complicated. So we have "conditions" (ie. Iron Pan), "triggers" (ie. Unknown Nation), and "triggers with static conditions attached" (ie. Throne of David). I think there's got to be a simpler way to break all this down.

I agree this needs to be simplified in some way. I mean I followed it, but not everyone would, and it'll be hard to explain to a lot of the younger kids who play the game.

Minister Polarius · « **Reply #44 on:** May 10, 2012, 03:50:33 PM »

I can tell this isn't something that the elders have actually decided on or discussed because it's horribly complicated, contrary to how we've been playing for years for no good reason, and not particularly good for the game.

Jmbeers · « **Reply #45 on:** May 10, 2012, 04:06:32 PM »

Well something like this can fly way under the radar because nobody but some dumb stubborn player would use it and then make people ask about this fortress (2nd time by the way) but hey if he sticks to it more power to him

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Author Topic: Throne of David and blocked (Read 5785 times)

Chris

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