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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Lamborghini_diablo on May 22, 2010, 02:42:36 AM

Title: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on May 22, 2010, 02:42:36 AM
Ok, complicated setup:

Opponent RA's with Asahel, and picks my Elymas (SA not relevant). He then proceeds to kill Elymas with Jaels Nail. I add Madness to battle, and play Destructive Sin on Asahel to negate the CTB.

What happens now?
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on May 22, 2010, 02:45:31 AM
See? This is why we never play. This was what the fourth situation to arise? ;)
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Minister Polarius on May 22, 2010, 04:36:38 AM
CTB is CBI.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: BubbleBoy on May 22, 2010, 08:36:33 AM
CTB is CBI.
O rly?
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Master KChief on May 22, 2010, 08:50:09 AM
i've never heard of that.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: STAMP on May 22, 2010, 12:19:23 PM
Ok, complicated setup:

Opponent RA's with Asahel, and picks my Elymas (SA not relevant). He then proceeds to kill Elymas with Jaels Nail. I add Madness to battle, and play Destructive Sin on Asahel to negate the CTB.

What happens now?

Nothing.  By playing Madness you've already presented another blocker.  It doesn't save Elymas either.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Korunks on May 24, 2010, 10:44:00 AM
Quote
CTB is CBI.

Wait ... What?  Since when?
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Minister Polarius on May 24, 2010, 02:18:36 PM
It's been that way for a while. But heck if I know where to find rulings in this sink hole that is waiting for a new REG while the old one is years outdated.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Gabe on May 24, 2010, 02:22:39 PM
If CTB is CBI that is news to me.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Minister Polarius on May 24, 2010, 02:38:54 PM
The logic behind the ruling was something along the lines of, even if you attempt to Negate the choosing of a blocker, there's already an EC in battle and you don't get to re-block. It was more complicated than that, but idk where the thread went.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Korunks on May 24, 2010, 02:48:12 PM
I cannot locate any thread discussing this point, perhaps another victim of "The Purge"tm.  All I can find is this section in the much maligned REG that states:

Quote
Instant Abilities > Choose Blocker or Rescuer
How to Play

“Choosing” the character means not choosing all the character(s) that are currently in battle; they all leave and are replaced by the character you choose.  Characters leaving battle may not return to the battle that turn with the exception that the choosing player may select one character just removed and put it back in battle..  The character selected can come from any territory in the field of play or from your hand unless stated otherwise.  The effect may be interrupted or negated by the character(s) being removed if your opponent gains initiative because of the exchange.

You can’t force your opponent to block with a character that cannot enter battle (i.e., an ignore condition).  However, with regard to site access, you can force a character into battle that turns the battle into a battle challenge.  Your opponent controls the new character for this turn and any abilities on that character.  For example, if you choose Jacob for your opponent to rescue with, your opponent may choose to band with a silver brigade Hero if possible.  If the character survives, it is returned to the owner’s territory.  If the character is discarded, it should be sent to the owner’s discard pile.

When your opponent has played a character that you know will be difficult to defeat, you simply select a different character, which your opponent will have to use and return the original character to his own territory.  It is advantageous to select a character from your hand or from any player’s territory that is of a color brigade that your opponent does not have in his deck.  Play the “choose opponent” card after your opponent has played several enhancements; unless you select a new character of the same color brigade, all of your opponent’s enhancement cards in the field of battle are discarded (but not negated).  It is also a good strategy to NOT give your opponent initiative while replacing their characters so they can’t immediately negate it.

Given that It looks to me like it can interrupted and negated.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Ryupeco11 on May 26, 2010, 11:41:15 AM
I always thought that if my opponent forces me to block with someone I could play a BTN ench. and negate the CTB. at that point I could choose to block with someone else. Is this not accurate?
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Minister Polarius on May 27, 2010, 03:02:01 AM
I am 99% sure that's not accurate.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Korunks on May 27, 2010, 08:46:54 AM
That is what the REG says, without an elder's ruling or an older ruling thread that's all we have to go on.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Gabe on May 27, 2010, 10:33:01 AM
I found what Pol is talking about in the new REG (that Tim gave to the public) under Choose Opponent > Special Conditions:

"A choose opponent ability used before a blocker is presented cannot be interrupted after the ability has completed."

So if I rescue with Jacob and play Obedience of Noah to choose the blocker you cannot interrupt it.

If I rescue with Leah and play Obedience of Noah after you block you can interrupt it (on the current or new blocker) if you will have initiative after the new blocker is presented.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: 3-Liner And Bags Of Chips on May 27, 2010, 10:38:09 AM
So CTB before cbi but CTB after can?
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Gabe on May 27, 2010, 10:41:17 AM
So CTB before cbi but CTB after can?

Yes.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: EmJayBee83 on May 27, 2010, 11:04:49 AM
I found what Pol is talking about in the new REG (that Tim gave to the public) under Choose Opponent > Special Conditions:

"A choose opponent ability used before a blocker is presented cannot be interrupted after the ability has completed."

So if I rescue with Jacob and play Obedience of Noah to choose the blocker you cannot interrupt it.
I am not so sure this is definitive statement that CtB is CBI even in this case. If this were the case then the explanation would end "...cannot be interrupted."  There would be no need for the last phrase.

I read this to state that you can't use an enhancement in battle to stop this--because obviously if you are playing a card on a character the CtB ability has completed. Out of band negates, however, should still work. For example, if I had Unsuccessful active, why wouldn't I be able to use it to negate OoN played pre-emptively on Jacob?

None of this effects L Diablo's initial scenario, however. You can't fight an entire battle and then use a negate to get a do over.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Lamborghini_diablo on May 27, 2010, 11:31:12 AM
Question though. That snippet provided also has this:

Quote
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT OFFICIAL.

So.... based on the current official rules, is it negatable?
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: Josh on May 27, 2010, 12:10:53 PM
I read this to state that you can't use an enhancement in battle to stop this--because obviously if you are playing a card on a character the CtB ability has completed. Out of band negates, however, should still work. For example, if I had Unsuccessful active, why wouldn't I be able to use it to negate OoN played pre-emptively on Jacob?
But wouldn't using Unsuccessful be the same as using a negate enhancement?  Once Obedience of Noah is played, it has "completed".  There's no "Redemption game time" between playing OoN and doing what it says, there is only the physical time of actually choosing the blocker. 

I bet this ruling was made similarly to the reason that "play an enhancement" abilities are now CBI - not doing so could lead to some ridiculous scenarios (like AOCP being effectively "negated" when ET's ability is negated).
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: EmJayBee83 on May 27, 2010, 12:56:30 PM
I read this to state that you can't use an enhancement in battle to stop this--because obviously if you are playing a card on a character the CtB ability has completed. Out of band negates, however, should still work. For example, if I had Unsuccessful active, why wouldn't I be able to use it to negate OoN played pre-emptively on Jacob?
But wouldn't using Unsuccessful be the same as using a negate enhancement?
No.  In order to play an enhancement you must have a character in battle to activate it on. If you play an enhancement on the EC aren't you saying "Yep, that EC is in battle--I will reluctantly use him." At that point the SA of OoN had to complete or you couldn't play the negate enhancement.  Unsuccessful is different.  Your opponent can play OoN and you can say--"No, I don't think so."

Quote
Once Obedience of Noah is played, it has "completed".  There's no "Redemption game time" between playing OoN and doing what it says, there is only the physical time of actually choosing the blocker. 
I'm not sure about that. The ruling is that all special abilities on cards must complete before other cards can be played.  If this interpretation of "completed" holds then I am not sure how any ITB would work.

Let's say you have a lone hero in battle. I play an evil enhancement that discards your hero. If the ability "completes" in the sense you use it above, how can you play an ITB?  Put in your terms there is no "Redemption game time" between playing the discard and the hero being discarded.  The purpose of playing an ITB is to create game time.

Quote
I bet this ruling was made similarly to the reason that "play an enhancement" abilities are now CBI - not doing so could lead to some ridiculous scenarios (like AOCP being effectively "negated" when ET's ability is negated).
I agree with the general reasoning (although your example is not good given that AoCP is CBN), which is precisely why I think they added the "after the CtB has completed" phrase. In that light, I think we would both agree that allowing Unsuccessful to negate the CtB cannot lead to a ridiculous scenario. This is pretty much why I think the qualified the CBI.
Title: Re: THIS. IS. MADNESS!
Post by: TheKarazyvicePresidentRR on May 27, 2010, 02:55:50 PM
Question though. That snippet provided also has this:

Quote
THIS DOCUMENT IS NOT OFFICIAL.

So.... based on the current official rules, is it negatable?
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