Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: TheHobbit13 on August 10, 2009, 01:12:46 PM
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Shouldn't the play as be an errata? The original ability lets you discard an unblocked hero the play as only lets you discard a hero that you blocked.
Type: Artifact • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Regardless of battle outcome Hero is discarded. "David's Harp" has no effect. May be used twice. • Play As: Regardless of battle outcome, discard one Hero in play at the end of battle that you blocked. Negate David’s Harp. May be used once per battle and twice per game. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Matthew 26:15-16 • Availability: Apostles booster packs (Ultra Rare)
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I think both abilities only allow you to discard a hero in battle. "Hero" in the original means IMO "hero you blocked".
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That's exactly what it means, no opinions necessary. ;D
In order to discard an unblocked hero, the SA would have to say "a hero."
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It appears it was given a Play As so that people could not discard any Hero they felt like after the battle. However, I believe Hobbit is correct that either there needs to be an errata, or the Play As needs to be adjusted. A player should be able to discard a Hero that made a rescue attempt or battle challenge unblocked. A player should not be able to discard any Hero in play after a different Hero makes a rescue attempt or battle challenge.
I propose:
Regardless of battle outcome, discard one Hero in play (at the end of battle) that entered battle. Negate David’s Harp. May be used once per battle and twice per game.
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Changing the "play as" is not a problem. Help me understand where you think it is deficient. It is my understanding from the situation of Spy coming out and retreating, that a battle outcome is granted. If that case has a battle outcome, what is being missed?
Mike
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The play as specifies "that you blocked." In the case of spy, you never got a chance to block, but could still discard it.
The as written seems to specify you can discard ANY hero in play, whether they entered battle or not.
Neither of these is correct.
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The current play as does state it is restricted to those that were blocked. I see your point about Spy not being blocked if he retreats. That does call for a correction. I'll get on it later tonight. Thanks for calling it to my attention.
Mike
Play as: Regardless of battle outcome, discard one Hero in play at the end of battle that was in battle. Negate David’s Harp. May be used once per battle and twice per game.
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Might I suggest a slightly modified version of that?
At the end of a battle against holder, discard one Hero in play that was in battle, regardless of battle outcome. Negate David’s Harp. May be used once per battle and twice per game.
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Thanks for the suggestion, but the "At the end of a battle against holder" sounds like it implies a battle. I agree it is more compact, but I prefer to leave the emphasis on "regardless of battle outcome". Do you see what I mean?
Mike
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Following battle resolution of a Rescue Attempt against you, discard one hero who entered battle. Negate David's Harp. May be used twice per game and once per rescue attempt.
Mr. B, your version makes it sound like you can use it following your rescue attempts. That's the only issue I see with it.
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Also it sounds like it can hit people in multi that aren't battling you (since it just says "Regardless of battle outcome, discard one Hero in play at the end of battle that was in battle" and says nothing about them having to come after you).
That's just my take on it.
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Play as:
"Once per turn, discard a hero used in a rescue attempt or battle challenge against you after that battle. Negate David's Harp. May be used twice."
I think this works, and it's fairly concise. The "once per turn" makes it so only one hero can be discarded per battle. The "against you" means it is only used on a hero who attacked you. The card doesn't say it's a twice per game ability; I think that multiple copies should all be able to work. Adding "per game" would be errata. Of course, I'm not sure if it was intended to work like Ark, where even if you discard the EC using other means, Ark is used. In that case, it should be:
"Once per turn, a hero used in a rescue attempt or battle challenge against you is discarded after that battle. Negate David's Harp. May be used twice."
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As as long as we are making abilities that we like for thirty pieces of silver.
Once per turn, Following a rescue attempt against you discard the Garden Tomb and search opponents deck and artifact pile for U&T and burn it . Davids Harp has no effect.
That seems balanced.
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Once per turn, Following a rescue attempt against you discard the Garden Tomb and search opponents deck and artifact pile for U&T and burn it . Davids Harp has no effect.
OP'd. Ban it!
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Once per turn, Following a rescue attempt against you discard the Garden Tomb and search opponents deck and artifact pile for U&T and burn it . Davids Harp has no effect.
OP'd. Ban it!
I like your logic ;D
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As as long as we are making abilities that we like for thirty pieces of silver.
Once per turn, Following a rescue attempt against you discard the Garden Tomb and search opponents deck and artifact pile for U&T and burn it . Davids Harp has no effect.
That seems balanced.
But, then, Holder must tear this card in half. Cannot be Negated.
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As as long as we are making abilities that we like for thirty pieces of silver.
Once per turn, Following a rescue attempt against you discard the Garden Tomb and search opponents deck and artifact pile for U&T and burn it . Davids Harp has no effect.
That seems balanced.
But, then, Holder must tear this card in half. Cannot be Negated.
It says 'once per turn' I guess you would have to rip it once you deactivate it.
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Due to the OP'd nature of this card, the SA will have to be changed from "tear this card in half" to "tear this sentence into thirds."
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Anyway, back to the topic at hand. I don't think anyone was trying to add to the ability, we were merely trying to figure out what the card actually does.
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I didn't mean to imply that you weren't.
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Nice - I appreciate the work in getting the wording smithy'ed out. This form suggested by Justin doesn't include the "regardless of outcome", but perhaps it is redundant, eh?
Play as - "Once per turn, discard one Hero in play used in a rescue attempt or battle challenge against you after that battle. Negate David's Harp. May be used twice."
Mike
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So just to be clear, according to that wording, if I have Thirty Pieces of Silver active and my opponent attacks, after which I block with a black EC and play Wrath of Satan, Thirty Pieces isn't used once correct? Since it specifies "in play"? That is different than how Ark of the Covenant works (or used to work). If what I said is correct, then Thirty Pieces became a lot more usable than I thought. And that would be nice, seeing as how I recently got five of them from my TexP packs.
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Hmmm. "In play" is what I recall was always used. Am I correct, or am I ancient history? There have been so many interpretations and rule changes made for this card over the years. I might not be the best one to make the ruling. It really is arbitrary. I read the original ability to IMPLY that a Hero is still present.
Mike
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Am I correct, or am I ancient history?
My son says that ancient history is cool, especially while he is playing Civilization or Age of Empires.
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Hmmm. "In play" is what I recall was always used. Am I correct, or am I ancient history? There have been so many interpretations and rule changes made for this card over the years. I might not be the best one to make the ruling. It really is arbitrary. I read the original ability to IMPLY that a Hero is still present.
Mike
I remember way back in the day when I had my Warriors Ark of the Covenant that I used at will, and I was happy. If I lost the battle, I would discard the EC with Ark. If I used Angel of the Lord, Ark would not be used that time, and the discard would be saved for the next battle. Then my brother informed me that even if I discarded an EC during the battle, that counted as a use of the Artifact. And there was Great Mourning (but not until a couple sets later).
This is how I've seen Ark played ever since that day, and I've always assumed 30 Pieces would work the same way. I for one would be happy if this was changed. Obviously if you won the battle by means other than discarding the opposing character, such as ignoring or returning to hand, then Ark/30P would trigger, discarding the character, whether you wanted to or not (since neither ability is optional). But I think it would greatly increase the usability of both arts if a discard during battle didn't trigger a use.
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I argued about ark a while a go, (that if I play Aotl Ark is not used because there is no target for ark), Bryon later agreed and said that he would look into changing it. I am not sure were the thread is or if it has been changed.
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I argued about ark a while a go, (that if I play Aotl Ark is not used because there is no target for ark), Bryon later agreed and said that he would look into changing it. I am not sure were the thread is or if it has been changed.
That was in the last downloadable version of the REG (5/07) - a discard via AotL does not count towards a use on Ark.
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I argued about ark a while a go, (that if I play Aotl Ark is not used because there is no target for ark), Bryon later agreed and said that he would look into changing it. I am not sure were the thread is or if it has been changed.
That was in the last downloadable version of the REG (5/07) - a discard via AotL does not count towards a use on Ark.
Thanks, that means that thirty doesn't need to be changed to behave like the old ark.