Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: adotson85 on April 14, 2012, 01:07:45 AM
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Can I play The New Covenant during my discard phase to return one of my captured heroes to my territory?
The New Covenant (Di)
Type: Covenant • Brigade: Purple • Ability: 4 / 3 • Class: None • Special Ability: At any time, you may place this card beneath your deck to heal all N.T. Heroes, return all captured N.T. Heroes to territory, or discard all evil cards on N.T. Heroes. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Luke 22:19-20
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If it was your Captured hero, u can activate it if it's an Artifact. I do not believe u can otherwise.
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You can if your heroes are being discarded because it is a healing enhancement if it is in your hand. You can.
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I really do not see why you could not.
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This card has a conditional special ability that would require it to be actively in play first. I would say that you can not use it as an ordinary healing enhancement that has no condition for activation.
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This card has a conditional special ability that would require it to be actively in play first.
Not sure where you're getting this from. Unless you mean the "at any time" part, which would seem to be satisfied (to me) even playing it as an enhancement in the discard phase.
My :2cents: is that you could play it as an enhancement in the discard phase if and only if you are using it to heal (as heal and set aside are the only non-TC enhancement abilities that can be used outside of battle). You can't use either of the other special abilities at that time.
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At face-value, this is a "Place" card. You must place the card before you can do anything. You are not allowed to play a "place" card in the Discard Phase unless you have High Places active.
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So if an enhancement existed with the special ability: "Place on a hero to heal it to face value. Protect it from decrease while this card remains." you'd rule that I couldn't play it outside of battle?
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So if an enhancement existed with the special ability: "Place on a hero to heal it to face value. Protect it from decrease while this card remains." you'd rule that I couldn't play it outside of battle?
Just tell me which card it is so we can address that separately.
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No need to be rude, I'm just wondering where the rule is that having "place" in the special ability overrides game rule regarding healing abilities.
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So you're not going to tell me which card you are talking about?
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I'm talking about The New Covenant and that it has a heal special ability which should mean, per game rule, that you can play it on a character of matching brigade in territory (or recently discarded) outside of battle. To my knowledge, the rule doesn't stipulate between healing abilities with and those without the word "place" in the special ability.
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I'm talking about a conditional ability. The "place" ability must be activated, otherwise the card does nothing. You can not play a "place" card at will.
Now, with that said, it is possible that the old wording on heal cards said "place." If that is true, then I need an example, which it seems you are aware of one (unless you were speaking hypothetically). We then need to see if those cards have a "play-as." If they do not, then your argument would prevail.
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I was speaking hypothetically based on the game rule regarding heal cards. Where does it say place cards are restricted from being played at a given time if a different part of their ability allows it (or relates to a game rule that allows it)?
I mean, set asides have a place ability of sorts inherent in their usage.
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Playing Healing Enhancements
Healing enhancements can be played in battle (during the battle phase) or outside of battle. When played during the battle phase they must be played according to the rules that govern when other enhancements can be played. A player has the option to play a healing enhancement during the preparation phase and the discard phase. A healing enhancement played in this way must be played on a character of matching brigade in one of two ways: (1) on a character in the holder's territory or (2) on a character in the holder's discard pile (if the character was discarded in the same turn). Both result in that character being healed. Healing cards played on a character in a discard pile must target the same character.
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Healing
A healing enhancement is an enhancement with “heal” in its special ability. Healing abilities cure characters that have been poisoned, infected or are in the process of being discarded. They are played following a battle phase or anytime during a turn. The card is put to use when placed in the Field of Play with a character of a matching brigade.
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A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable.
Conclusion: TNC is a healing enhancement, and can be played from hand when an appropriate target (discarded, poisoned, or diseased) is available. It's entire ability activates, and thus it is placed under deck in order to heal. The one thing that is not 100% clear from the REG is if you can play it from hand when a character is healable but then use its other ability to return captured heroes and let the heal targets be discarded/poisoned/diseased. I would have to rule that it can be based strictly on the REG quote, but I could certainly see an argument against that.
What I am certain of is that you can only play it from hand outside of battle if a character is healable. You cannot play it as a healing enhancement if there are no healable targets.
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Playing Healing Enhancements
Healing enhancements can be played in battle (during the battle phase) or outside of battle. When played during the battle phase they must be played according to the rules that govern when other enhancements can be played. A player has the option to play a healing enhancement during the preparation phase and the discard phase. A healing enhancement played in this way must be played on a character of matching brigade in one of two ways: (1) on a character in the holder's territory or (2) on a character in the holder's discard pile (if the character was discarded in the same turn). Both result in that character being healed. Healing cards played on a character in a discard pile must target the same character.
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Healing
A healing enhancement is an enhancement with “heal” in its special ability. Healing abilities cure characters that have been poisoned, infected or are in the process of being discarded. They are played following a battle phase or anytime during a turn. The card is put to use when placed in the Field of Play with a character of a matching brigade.
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A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable.
Conclusion: TNC is a healing enhancement, and can be played from hand when an appropriate target (discarded, poisoned, or diseased) is available. It's entire ability activates, and thus it is placed under deck in order to heal. The one thing that is not 100% clear from the REG is if you can play it from hand when a character is healable but then use its other ability to return captured heroes and let the heal targets be discarded/poisoned/diseased. I would have to rule that it can be based strictly on the REG quote, but I could certainly see an argument against that.
What I am certain of is that you can only play it from hand outside of battle if a character is healable. You cannot play it as a healing enhancement if there are no healable targets.
I think it was decided that if you played TNC as a healing enhancement, you could only use the healing portion of the ability.
http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/the-new-covenant-useage-questions/msg466147/?topicseen#msg466147 (http://www.cactusgamedesign.com/message_boards/ruling-questions/the-new-covenant-useage-questions/msg466147/?topicseen#msg466147)
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It's an issue of "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law". The letter of the law allows you to play healing enhancements when a healable character is available. It does not specifically say you must play them to heal those characters (except when the character playing it is in the discard pile). The spirit of the law would suggest that you can only use the heal ability when you use it as a healing enhancement. I usually rule on the letter of the law, though I would prefer being able to rule on the spirit of the law. It's probably something that would rarely come up (I would hope) since poison/diseases are pretty uncommon, but I guess I'd have to leave it up to a judge.
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It's an issue of "letter of the law" vs. "spirit of the law". The letter of the law allows you to play healing enhancements when a healable character is available. It does not specifically say you must play them to heal those characters (except when the character playing it is in the discard pile). The spirit of the law would suggest that you can only use the heal ability when you use it as a healing enhancement. I usually rule on the letter of the law, though I would prefer being able to rule on the spirit of the law. It's probably something that would rarely come up (I would hope) since poison/diseases are pretty uncommon, but I guess I'd have to leave it up to a judge.
I agree with this. Strictly speaking, the only real stipulation for a heal enhancement is that it must be played on a healable character. In the case of The New Covenant, I see no evidence to suggest that, once the ability activates, you can't use it to return captured heroes to territory.
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This is what I was saying, but I'd never use TNC as an Enhancement anyway.
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This is what I was saying, but I'd never use TNC as an Enhancement anyway.
I don't for capturing, but I prefer to keep it in hand unless I'm setting aside a lot of heroes (in fear of DD) so that I'm not using an artifact slot.
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My Deck runs only a handful of Arts so I can use more Characters/Enhancements.
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The rule was written before there were healing cards that could be played without trying to heal anything. I am 100% for the letter of the law as the spirit is subjective. However, I do think that the letter needs to be amended to work as intended.
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So are u saying u'd rather have TNC work w/o a target to heal? Or are u meaning the 'Place under Deck' part?
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I'm saying that right now, the letter of the law appears to allow TNC to do any of its 3 abilities when played as a healing card outside battle, provided there is a legal target for healing. I am also saying that this loophole in the rules should be closed.
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Okay. I just wanted to be clear. I don't think that it would actually work like that, and that seems to be what quite a few others here think too. Personally I think it should be ruled that it won't be able to be used like that.
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Currently the rules allow it. To rule otherwise would be to make a bottom-up ruling, which is horrible for the game no matter what the actual rule is. Better to just close the loophole.
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I'm not sure what u mean, I don't think the current ruling allows for the rest of the effect to work. Could u explain?
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The whole explanation is earlier on this thread, and in great detail.
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From what I see, the rule of the law says that you can only use the Healing part of the card if you play it as a Healing Enhancement.
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From what I see, the rule of the law says that you can only use the Healing part of the card if you play it as a Healing Enhancement.
The letter of the law states a healing enhancement has to be played on a healable character to activate. It says nothing about it having to heal.
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How I see the rule states is that a Healing Enhancement has to Heal or else its not being played as a Healing Enhancement.
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How it's played doesn't change whether or not it's a healing enhancement. It's still a healing enhancement, which is subject to the same restrictions of when a healing enhancement can be played ("A character is healable if it is about to be discarded, was discarded earlier in the same turn, is poisoned, or is diseased. If no more specific requirement is specified targets must be healable"), and there's no rule that says it must activate to heal the character(s).
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So an add to battle card is also a band card even before it's played? Because if not, then ANC shouldn't be a healing enhancement unless it's activated and targets something for healing.
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Yay, this thread again! Maybe someone will pay attention now.
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I don't really care which way it's ruled, but it should be consistent across all abilities that can be something or something else depending on how it's played.
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Or, have no abilities become other abilities. The solution to this is not a splicing of two bad rulings, and this particular issue should be solved with a rule change that has nothing to do with the more important question of when the PTB is going to fix "add to battle."
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I'm mixed on it...
My understanding is that if a card has multiple clauses. (A or B) it's played as one or the other. So if ANC is played as a Healing Enhancement it can't be used to Release Captured Heroes, or D/C Evil cards on Heroes. But for the ATB, I'd rather it be like this, Cards that only add Characters (like Baker/Cupbearer) are always Banding Cards, but cards that are optional (Like add a NT Card to Battle) is not a Banding card unless u add a Hero to battle w/ it. (aka big bad Idols doesn't ignore it until it adds a Character to battle) but this is just my opinion.
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cards that are optional (Like add a NT Card to Battle) is not a Banding card unless u add a Hero to battle w/ it.
This is how it is now and doesn't work. It's a very complicated series of operations, but if you want to read up on why its broken, the threads are out there.
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Yeah... I hate research...