Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Aelec Enitnel on April 30, 2011, 07:30:18 PM
-
I want to know if the Magi could be considered magicians for the sake of magic charms.
Two reasons why they should be magicians are
1. There is no getting around the fact that they are astrologers, and the babylonian Astrologers have part pale green and are magicians.
2. (the lesser reason) Their name comes from the word Magic.
-
Don't even try,
I argued this for six pages a few months ago.
The magi aren't magicians because they visited Jesus so they can't be evil :P
-
The Elders decided to rule "Magician" as only an evil identifier. If one of the pale green magicians is converted, it loses the identifier.
-
Really?
Well, nice to know.
-
Yup - I'll go find the thread and link it, but the gist of the matter is that Magicians in redemption are people or groups of people who use any source that isn't God to create 'Miracles'
-
Okay, sweet.
-
Can you activate magic charms on your captured magician?
-
I think captured characters lose all identifiers except verse/testament, brigade, and gender.
-
Am Slave isnt Egyptian in LoB?
-
There aren't any cards (that I can think of) that affect Egyptians in land of bondage, so I don't think that matters. But I have never heard of civilizations characters in LoB counting for "# of your <civilization>s" so I would assume they lose it (or it somehow otherwise doesn't count).
-
Pithom (P)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time an opponent plays a Dominant, if you have an Egyptian in play, discard the top card of his deck or place a good card in his territory beneath deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Exodus 1:11 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Local Tournament)
-
Pithom (P)
Type: Fortress • Brigade: None • Ability: None • Class: None • Special Ability: Each time an opponent plays a Dominant, if you have an Egyptian in play, discard the top card of his deck or place a good card in his territory beneath deck. • Identifiers: None • Verse: Exodus 1:11 • Availability: Promotional cards (2010 Local Tournament)
There aren't any cards (that I can think of) that affect Egyptians in land of bondage, so I don't think that matters. But I have never heard of civilizations characters in LoB counting for "# of your <civilization>s" so I would assume they lose it (or it somehow otherwise doesn't count).
I already answered that. As far as I know, civilizations don't count on captured characters, whether that's because they lose the identifier when captured or some other reason I don't know. Ofc, I could be wrong.
-
Can I get elder confirmation on that one? I thought they kept identifiers.
-
They do. The only thing captured characters lose is card type.
-
Although I believe Pol is correct in general, what about the "magician" identifier (or any other identifier tied to alignment)?
-
Captured EC's are still evil.
-
Can you activate magic charms on your captured magician?
-
Can you activate magic charms on your captured magician?
And that's exactly why I believe Pol is incorrect.
We could really use an elder or three. >_<
-
Can you activate magic charms on your captured magician?
If your captured magician is in your land of bondage I can't think of any reason this doesn't work. It doesn't seem right and I could be overlooking something, but off hand I'd say it's a legal play. But if your captured magician is in your opponent's land of bondage it doesn't meet the "your" requirement of own + control so you cannot active charms on it.
They do. The only thing captured characters lose is card type.
Pol is correct, except that they also lose their brigade. They retain their identifiers.
Captured EC's are still evil.
If they are in the Land of Bondage then captured characters are treated as Lost Souls so they are not evil, nor good, they are neutral. If they are placed in Raider's Camp then they are still Heroes.
Although I believe Pol is correct in general, what about the "magician" identifier (or any other identifier tied to alignment)?
I can't think of any identifier except "Magician", "Demon" and "Angel" that are alignment specific. To my knowledge the identifier is retained when they are captured.
-
I'm confused by your post Gabe. If Magician is an evil identifier, and characters treated as Lost Souls are neutral, then how can there be a Magician in a Land of Bondage?
-
I'm confused by your post Gabe. If Magician is an evil identifier, and characters treated as Lost Souls are neutral, then how can there be a Magician in a Land of Bondage?
The only ruling that I've ever heard is that Magician is not a good identifier, or that Heroes cannot be magicians or something like that. It's one of those unwritten rules (which I like less than you).
I mentioned the three identifiers I recall that are associated with alignment, Angel, Demon and Magician. I can have a captured Angel. I can have a captured Demon who cannot be redeemed (ducks rotten tomatoes from SQF). I don't see any reason I cannot have a captured magician.
-
Because then you could activate MC on it. ;)
-
I'm confused by your post Gabe. If Magician is an evil identifier, and characters treated as Lost Souls are neutral, then how can there be a Magician in a Land of Bondage?
The only ruling that I've ever heard is that Magician is not a good identifier, or that Heroes cannot be magicians or something like that. It's one of those unwritten rules (which I like less than you).
I mentioned the three identifiers I recall that are associated with alignment, Angel, Demon and Magician. I can have a captured Angel. I can have a captured Demon who cannot be redeemed (ducks rotten tomatoes from SQF). I don't see any reason I cannot have a captured magician.
Maybe the problem is the status quo. Perhaps a captured angel is no longer an angel (good alignment), and a captured demon is no longer a demon (evil alignment). They are just spiritual beings waiting for a rescue or release (neutral alignment). A neutral Egyptian makes sense realistically. However, if an angel is treated as a Lost Soul, then it no longer meets the definition of an angel.
There may be hope for SQF after all. ;)
-
I'm confused by your post Gabe. If Magician is an evil identifier, and characters treated as Lost Souls are neutral, then how can there be a Magician in a Land of Bondage?
The only ruling that I've ever heard is that Magician is not a good identifier, or that Heroes cannot be magicians or something like that. It's one of those unwritten rules (which I like less than you).
I mentioned the three identifiers I recall that are associated with alignment, Angel, Demon and Magician. I can have a captured Angel. I can have a captured Demon who cannot be redeemed (ducks rotten tomatoes from SQF). I don't see any reason I cannot have a captured magician.
Bryon has ruled previously that a "captured human" is no more a human than a "horse apple" is an apple. (For example, you are not allowed to discard a "captured human" to satisfy Arioch's SA.) So, I guess my question is whether a "captured magician" is still a magician? If so, what is the distinction between the magician identifier and the human identifier?
-
That's incorrect. The ruling was that a capture Hero is no longer a Hero. That matches up with what Gabe and I have been saying.
-
Bryon specifically ruled that you could not discard a captured male human to place a Lost Soul beneath owner's deck for the reasons I stated. Has this ruling been nullified?
Arioch SA: If opponent does not have a prophet in play, you may discard a male human from your territory to place a Lost Soul beneath owner’s deck.
-
I'm 90% sure that's perfectly legal.
-
I'm 90% sure that's perfectly legal.
And theres a 20% chance of it happening due to how many prophets there are. :D
-
There was something else that came up at a recent tourney as well with identifiers and card types:
Can Creeping Deciever protect a captured NT Hero in a site?
Creeping Deceiver (Di)
Type: Evil Char. • Brigade: Crimson • Ability: 1 / 4 • Class: None • Special Ability: Protect up to 3 N.T. Lost Souls in Sites from rescue. May band to a heretic or N.T. female Evil Character. Cannot be negated by a character. • Identifiers: Generic NT Male Human • Verse: II Timothy 3:6-8 • Availability: Disciples booster packs ()
-
Captured characters, except demons and anything that states otherwise (rx: Raiders' Camp), are treated as Lost Souls, so I don't see why Creeping Deceiver couldn't protect a captured NT character in a site.
-
Bryon specifically ruled that you could not discard a captured male human to place a Lost Soul beneath owner's deck for the reasons I stated. Has this ruling been nullified?
Arioch SA: If opponent does not have a prophet in play, you may discard a male human from your territory to place a Lost Soul beneath owner’s deck.
I'm 90% sure that's perfectly legal.
I'm 100% sure that the ruling was as MJB stated - it does NOT work. I know this because I was part of the discussion and I had Arioch in my deck.
-
I think I might have started that topic. I recall the ruling and MJB and YMT are correct on how it was ruled. I still think it's a bad ruling because it's bottom up, not top down.
-
That specific ruling is invalid. The rule on what characters do and do not retain when captured dictates that Arioch can Discard a Captured character with the correct identifiers.
-
Keep em straight Polarius. We missed you at TN State BTW.
-
Ashpenaz
Type: Evil Char. Brigade: Crimson Ability: 2 / 2 Class: None Special Ability: Convert a captured human Hero in your territory to a crimson Evil Character. You control the character.
Magic Charms (TP)
Type: Artifact Brigade: None Ability: None Class: None Special Ability: Protect your Magicians from capture and conversion. You may discard this card from your Magician during battle to capture up to two human Heroes.
Does magic charms protect my "magician lost souls" from Ashpenaz?
-
No.
Since you cannot have a magician Hero, I believe it would be difficult to have a captured human Hero who would be protected by Magic Charms.
-
He said Arioch, he posted Ashpenaz.
-
He said Arioch, he posted Ashpenaz.
Since Arioch neither captures nor converts, I am going to stick by my "No" here. Magic Charms won't protect against Arioch's ability either. ;)
-
He said Arioch, he posted Ashpenaz.
...oops :-[
All the talk about Arioch has messed me up :)
-
Hey,
The resolution of the Arioch issue was that captured characters still have identifiers, those identifiers can be "spotted" but the captured characters cannot be targeted based on those identifiers.
So "If you have a High Priest in play" can be satisfied by a captured character with the identifier "High Priest" but "discard a human" cannot discard a captured character with the identifier "human."
Activating Magic Charms on a magician isn't a matter of "spotting" the magician, but it's also not an issue of "targeting" the magician, so it falls through the cracks of the established ruing (surprise, surprise). It feels to me like it's more similar to targeting the magician, so I would expect activating Magic Charms on a captured magician would not be allowed.
Magic Charms cannot protect captured magicians from conversion, because you'd have to target them with the protect ability and you can't.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
-
if you captured a magician it would seem to me that you would strip him of any possessions he may own so i dont see a captured magician possessing any magic charms. This seems like how i would see someone rule this according to weapon class enhancements on captured characters.
-
That's right, no divination in prison.. or knife fights.