Cactus Game Design Message Boards
Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Minister Polarius on December 11, 2010, 11:22:14 AM
-
Recently, someone made the point that Mary, mother of James is the same Mary as Jesus' mother. And elder or two agreed with this and said they would rule them the same unique character.
Yet on the same thread, the elder(s) also said that TGT would not extend its ignoring power to regular Mary because TGT specifies by title Mary the Mother of James. However, on another thread, it was confirmed that a Converted Salome from Clan Herod would not receive Ignoring powers from TGT because "Salome" refers to a person, not a card title.
Why is it that in a list of names, one of them refers to a card title and another refers to a person? Either 9/9 in December Mary should get TGT benefits or Converted Salome should.
-
This is a valid point, thank you for pointing it out.
This will be discussed amongst the Elders.
-
I would agree that card title should not trump the historical person. Any Mary card that represents the same historical person should gain the "ignore." I think the same should be true about David for cards that refer to King David, and vice versa. The only exceptions should be cards that specify "hero" or "evil."
-
I can say with a fair amount of certainty that a converted 6/6 Salome will not be ruled to gain TGT benefits--subsequently right now I am in support of ruling Mary as a TGT Hero to maintain consistency, but this will definitely be discussed.
Feel free to post thoughts and opinions but let's keep everything nice. :)
-
Recently, someone made the point that Mary, mother of James is the same Mary as Jesus' mother. And elder or two agreed with this and said they would rule them the same unique character.
Can you provide a reference for that? I'm not seeing anywhere where an Elder ruled that MMoJ and Mary are the same person.
-
Recently, someone made the point that Mary, mother of James is the same Mary as Jesus' mother. And elder or two agreed with this and said they would rule them the same unique character.
Can you provide a reference for that? I'm not seeing anywhere where an Elder ruled that MMoJ and Mary are the same person.
They are the same person so.....
-
Regardless of past ruling, the issue is whether these are, in fact, the same person. The extensions in the title are to clarify historical reference, and should not be used for literal SA translations. If they are the same person, then cards that reference one should reference them all. This is simpler for players and hosts. This will also eliminate the improper use of Herod Salome with TGT, or Saul/Paul vs. King Saul types of issues. Card titles could still be used for deck-building purposes.
It really is unnecessary to try to figure out what cards apply before David became king, and which apply after he became king. We know who David is, so let the cards that pertain to him be used by any version of his card.
-
I have looked into the issue a bit, and every source I saw referenced MMoJ as the sister, sister-in-law, or cousin of Jesus' mother. Except of course JSB, the preeminent expert on all things in the Bible from Genesis 3 through the end of Revelation. ::)
-
There are biblical scholars that thing Salome and Salome are the same....
-
Well, this is where the debate for the Elders/Rob must lie. Which cards refer to the same historical person, and which ones do not. There will always be debate among Biblical scholars, so this may come down to a Redemption concensus. What we decide is the only thing relevant to this game.
However, there must also be a willingness to make the game default that cards referencing the same historical person can be used by any version of the card (of proper alignment/brigade when that applies).
-
From a quick search it looks like they are the same person, but I would prefer if two characters can't be conclusively proven to be the same person then they shouldn't be for Redemption purposes to keep from confusion for people who aren't Biblical Scholars (especially when we don't have an up to date REG)
-
I'd prefer Redemption to not have seminary as a requirement for playing.
-
From a quick search it looks like they are the same person, but I would prefer if two characters can't be conclusively proven to be the same person then they shouldn't be for Redemption purposes to keep from confusion for people who aren't Biblical Scholars (especially when we don't have an up to date REG)
Then for the sake of the ordinary player, saying that evil Salome is the same as good Salome is easier, since they have the same title. Likewise, saying that Mary the Mother of James, Mary Magdalene, and Mary are all different people is easier, since they have different titles.
Also, for the ordinary player, knowing that King Saul and Saul/Paul are different is easy based on the title. The one that is tougher would be King David vs. David. But, if we are already ruling them as different for Promised Land, that may not be an issue.
-
I believe Salome should get the ignore powers as an ec OR as a hero. Many good forts protect or benefit evil cards.
-
I'd prefer Redemption to not have seminary as a requirement for playing.
Funny thing. The more that the game stays true to the Word of God, the more I feel like I am in seminary when I play a lot and build decks.
-
From a quick search it looks like they are the same person
There are biblical scholars that thing Salome and Salome are the same....
If you could cite some sources, these claims would be a lot more useful. And that is not a slight on anyone, but this is looking to be a very tricky situation and the more reliable information we have, the better. One thing we should remember, Biblical scholars are not 100% certain about this, so we should not expect to "solve" the mystery. It may simply come down to Rob saying which way it will be. From a gameplay standpoint, I personally am fine either way with MMoJ and Mary being ruled the same or not. If they were, you could still only have one in play at a time anyway. As far as the Salome's, I think we would be better off ruling them to be different people.
-
I am not supporting the idea they should be the same as Redemption. It's a debated point.