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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: RTSmaniac on December 03, 2012, 11:58:07 PM

Title: Taunt
Post by: RTSmaniac on December 03, 2012, 11:58:07 PM
Taunt (added)
Taunt is a character attribute printed on the card. Taunt is a battle challenge performed by an Evil Character. A taunt targets an opponent’s Hero. You can only taunt when your opponent has no lost souls to rescue. The taunt it is your only battle for the turn. The opponent can accept or decline the taunt. If the taunt is declined, the Hero loses the battle and gains the special ability specified with the taunt attribute  (e.g., “place opponent’s Hero beneath deck”).
The following Evil Characters can taunt:
•   Goliath (P)

You can only taunt when your opponent has no lost souls to rescue:

How is this even relevent in this game? Just seems like it could have been something more usable. Anyway we can change it?
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 04, 2012, 12:14:22 AM
The key here is actually that it's a Battle Challenge, which can only be made when your opponent has no lost souls to rescue. Goliath certainly isn't going to make a rescue attempt, and I'm not sure we should make a whole 'nother type of battle for...one card. Goliath making a battle challenge just makes sense. And of course you can't make more than one battle per turn.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: RTSmaniac on December 04, 2012, 12:28:34 AM
I guess I'm still trying to understand it...

So If I have no lost souls then I can taunt?
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Chris on December 04, 2012, 01:00:56 AM
If they have no lost souls, you can taunt.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 04, 2012, 10:06:30 AM
The purpose of Taunt is to give you something fun to do when your opponent has no lost souls for you to rescue on your turn. Normally you would either end your turn, or do a Battle Challenge with a hero that has a useful ability (like Gabriel). Goliath gives you another option. You can do a Battle Challenge with him (even though he is evil), just to create havoc.  :maul:
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: RTSmaniac on December 04, 2012, 12:42:34 PM
So why base a special ability on a gamestate that will never really happen? I mean I understand that it does happen, actually more than I would like. It just seems like a really good idea of an ability wasted on a board position that is even looked down upon in this game, hence all the recent soul gen cards.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: YourMathTeacher on December 04, 2012, 12:50:01 PM
So why base a special ability on a gamestate that will never really happen? I mean I understand that it does happen, actually more than I would like. It just seems like a really good idea of an ability wasted on a board position that is even looked down upon in this game, hence all the recent soul gen cards.

I think the recent Soul-Gen cards are more of a result of the rule change not allowing the rescuing of your own souls. I'm sure the intent was to give Taunt to more characters that could actually affect gameplay more intensely. Imagine a Taunt ability with a reward of "search opponent's deck for a Lost Soul and put it in play." You could not rescue it right away since you already did a battle, but it gives you food for next turn. Plus, you may get to have an actual battle and play some cards.  :o
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: BubbleBoy on December 04, 2012, 01:43:31 PM
I agree that Taunting should be more possible. I don't understand why an evil character wouldn't be able to taunt if an opponent has Lost Souls. Goliath laughs at puny souls! I think it would be a boon for the game if that were changed. Also, how fun would it be to make a Rescue and a Taunt in the same turn? That might even be enough change, because you could rescue an opponent's soul and then Taunt in the same turn, making it more likely that the Taunt ability would be used.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Professoralstad on December 04, 2012, 02:03:22 PM
The major problem with Taunt is that it opens up a whole other realm of possibilities for broken combos. If Goliath didn't negate Philistine Chariot and Horses for example, then a Taunt+Wrath+Carcasses (or even just Wrath by itself in most cases) would be way OP. But since Goliath does negate everything he does, there is almost no way (barring some fairly convoluted combos) that you can do anything of significance with him during a taunt, but you allow your opponent to potentially use his Heroes' abilit(ies) on your turn (imagine someone accepting your taunt with AutO to Sam, for example, for a free d4).

The best way to fix taunt is to give future taunters decent (but not OP) SAs, and really good Taunt abilities (like maybe a discard a Fortress, or something) so that in the rare instance a taunt does occur, it will actually be worth fighting.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Minister Polarius on December 04, 2012, 03:05:12 PM
What's so OP about letting Goliath taunt with Wrath? ET can already do that with AoCP, doesn't need a specific Artifact up to make it CBN, doesn't need a specific weapon to play it, and can get a LS out of the bargain as well. Goliath's Taunt is another in a long string of "things that were over-balanced into oblivion" on the Evil side, while Good (and especially Speed) keeps getting 2-brigade, 3-ability CBN characters with great identifiers. Good's supposed to be better than Evil, not unaffected by it.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Westok Kiok on December 04, 2012, 03:12:27 PM
Maybe an artifact or two could be made that allow taunting...?
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: ChristianSoldier on December 04, 2012, 04:08:03 PM
What I don't understand about Taunt is what does "your opponent has no lost souls to rescue" mean? Do Lost Souls in sites count? Does the female only count? Why should Goliath care whether or not there are lost souls in their territory since he can't rescue them anyway.

I thought was that if you go in with a hero that has no access to a lost soul it is a battle challenge, so why are the rules different with Goliath? He can never rescue a lost soul so any battle performed by him would be a battle challenge.

Maybe I'm over thinking this, especially since the only time I have had taunt used against me it was majorly in my favor.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 04, 2012, 05:56:38 PM
What I don't understand about Taunt is what does "your opponent has no lost souls to rescue" mean? Do Lost Souls in sites count? Does the female only count? Why should Goliath care whether or not there are lost souls in their territory since he can't rescue them anyway.

I thought was that if you go in with a hero that has no access to a lost soul it is a battle challenge, so why are the rules different with Goliath? He can never rescue a lost soul so any battle performed by him would be a battle challenge.
Again, Taunt is just an evil battle challenge. A battle challenge is defined by "A battle challenge may be given when there is no Lost Soul available for a Hero to rescue. A Hero is placed onto the Field of Battle, and the Evil Character is invited to fight. The battle challenge does not have to be accepted." So, yes, lost souls in sites count, just like they would for heroes. The female only counts, just like it would for heroes. This is why Every Man's Sword doesn't prevent site access heroes like War Officer from entering battle.

So, as long as your opponent has a soul, it's a rescue attempt.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: STAMP on December 04, 2012, 06:00:09 PM
All I ask is that many options are considered during R&D and a complete regression test.  :)
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: ChristianSoldier on December 04, 2012, 06:18:16 PM
What I don't understand about Taunt is what does "your opponent has no lost souls to rescue" mean? Do Lost Souls in sites count? Does the female only count? Why should Goliath care whether or not there are lost souls in their territory since he can't rescue them anyway.

I thought was that if you go in with a hero that has no access to a lost soul it is a battle challenge, so why are the rules different with Goliath? He can never rescue a lost soul so any battle performed by him would be a battle challenge.
Again, Taunt is just an evil battle challenge. A battle challenge is defined by "A battle challenge may be given when there is no Lost Soul available for a Hero to rescue. A Hero is placed onto the Field of Battle, and the Evil Character is invited to fight. The battle challenge does not have to be accepted." So, yes, lost souls in sites count, just like they would for heroes. The female only counts, just like it would for heroes. This is why Every Man's Sword doesn't prevent site access heroes like War Officer from entering battle.

So, as long as your opponent has a soul, it's a rescue attempt.

That's not true though. Lets say my opponent has a lost soul in a say gold site and a female only not in a site, lets say I have a character with a site access ability and a female hero and Gabriel, does that stop me from attacking (as a battle challenge) with Gabriel because I could make a rescue attempt with either of my other heroes? I wouldn't think so.

Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 04, 2012, 06:32:58 PM
That's not true though. Lets say my opponent has a lost soul in a say gold site and a female only not in a site, lets say I have a character with a site access ability and a female hero and Gabriel, does that stop me from attacking (as a battle challenge) with Gabriel because I could make a rescue attempt with either of my other heroes? I wouldn't think so.

Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?
No, it doesn't stop you from attacking, but when you attack you are making a rescue attempt, not a battle challenge.

Let me put it this way. There's an ordinary lost soul. You rescue with Shamgar. The block with Gomer banded to Uzzah, and use Uzzah's ability. Does Uzzah's ability change the battle into a Battle Challenge because the lost souls are protected?
No. Death of Unrighteous would because it takes all your lost souls out of play, but as long as there are souls, whether protected or not, it's a rescue attempt.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Gabe on December 04, 2012, 06:36:01 PM
Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?

Because Rob decided Taunt should only work when there is no Lost Soul in play and the people testing taunt agreed.  ;)
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: megamanlan on December 04, 2012, 06:41:39 PM
That's not true though. Lets say my opponent has a lost soul in a say gold site and a female only not in a site, lets say I have a character with a site access ability and a female hero and Gabriel, does that stop me from attacking (as a battle challenge) with Gabriel because I could make a rescue attempt with either of my other heroes? I wouldn't think so.

Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?
No, it doesn't stop you from attacking, but when you attack you are making a rescue attempt, not a battle challenge.

Let me put it this way. There's an ordinary lost soul. You rescue with Shamgar. The block with Gomer banded to Uzzah, and use Uzzah's ability. Does Uzzah's ability change the battle into a Battle Challenge because the lost souls are protected?
No. Death of Unrighteous would because it takes all your lost souls out of play, but as long as there are souls, whether protected or not, it's a rescue attempt.

There have been rulings at several tournaments I have been to that say otherwise. Any battle where you are not able to get a soul after the battle is a Battle Challenge. It doesn't matter if that is from DoU, Uzzy or Site Protection. If the effect goes through, it's a Battle Challenge.
Or at least that is the understanding I have gotten by playing in Wisconsin and Minnesota State as well as most tournaments I've gone too.

Although its given that most of the Protect cards end the battle, so either way it wouldn't make much of a difference, but that's my understanding of the rules.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 04, 2012, 06:50:16 PM
If that was the case, then Every Man's Sword would prevent War Officer from entering battle when there's a lost soul in a site, but it doesn't. Those rulings you've received contradict the REG's definition of Battle Challenge, as well as past rulings such as EMS versus War Officer.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: ChristianSoldier on December 04, 2012, 07:12:18 PM
Goliath being an evil character by default doesn't have access to any lost souls so why should he not be able to make a battle challenge whenever he wants?

Because Rob decided Taunt should only work when there is no Lost Soul in play and the people testing taunt agreed.  ;)

That I can get behind since Taunt is essentially a keyword ability in the identifier slot, but don't try to pass it off as "only when you can make a battle challenge." Because according to this there are lots of times when you can make a battle challenge but can't taunt.

If that was the case, then Every Man's Sword would prevent War Officer from entering battle when there's a lost soul in a site, but it doesn't. Those rulings you've received contradict the REG's definition of Battle Challenge, as well as past rulings such as EMS versus War Officer.

Every Man's Sword is a card that is fairly awkward due to the fact that there is really no consistent way to make it work the way have chosen without giving it its own special rules (at least if I remember correctly). For some reason it was decided that it shouldn't stop characters like War Officer and every attempt to make that work has basically been silly, because the way I understand it, either the type of battle isn't determined until after the heroes ability completes (in which case Every Man's Sword does nothing because no battle starts as a battle challenge) or it is determined before and it Every Man's Sword should stop War Officer, but it has been ruled otherwise.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: SiLeNcEd_MaTrIx on December 04, 2012, 10:08:48 PM
Love the idea, these work great in mfg.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Isildur on December 05, 2012, 12:21:46 AM
So why base a special ability on a gamestate that will never really happen? I mean I understand that it does happen, actually more than I would like. It just seems like a really good idea of an ability wasted on a board position that is even looked down upon in this game, hence all the recent soul gen cards.
BAM NAILED IT! One of the most logical things said on the boards in a long time. I still have no clue why any one would put Taunt cards into their deck with this meta heck I wouldnt have put these in my deck 10 years ago if they came out. The only reason Goliath is being used is because... well he is Goliath just read his sa lol

Because Rob decided Taunt should only work when there is no Lost Soul in play and the people testing taunt agreed.  ;)
This card is one of the only times the playtesters actually were overly cautious about something :P I mean sure at the time it looked like taunt might cause crazy ccccccccccccccccombo breakers and what not. But with that clearly not being the case and with how the meta is going I think we should be open to changing it so that taunt functions as a standard battle challenge but evil.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: RTSmaniac on December 05, 2012, 12:31:45 AM
Thank you Isildur. Finally, someone understands where I'm coming from.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: megamanlan on December 05, 2012, 04:56:16 AM
If that was the case, then Every Man's Sword would prevent War Officer from entering battle when there's a lost soul in a site, but it doesn't. Those rulings you've received contradict the REG's definition of Battle Challenge, as well as past rulings such as EMS versus War Officer.

No, it doesn't because the Character's effect doesn't make it a battle challenge. The one thing you forget is that Character abilities have ways to determine Rescue Attempts and Battle Challenges. It's the same thing for putting a Site in battle. If you don't have a way to rescue a soul, then it's a Battle Challenge. If you can rescue a soul, then it's a Rescue attempt. That can change during the battle as well. If you lose the ability to rescue a soul by a card effect that still makes the battle now a Battle Challenge regardless of the Lost Souls out.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: EmJayBee83 on December 05, 2012, 06:50:57 AM
Every Man's Sword is a card that is fairly awkward due to the fact that there is really no consistent way to make it work the way have chosen without giving it its own special rules (at least if I remember correctly).
You don't understand correctly.  ;)

Every Man's Sword is a card that is fairly awkward due to the fact that it was created prior to people actually needing to think about the question, "What does it mean to begin a battle?" It wasn't until the Demon Discarder lost soul came out that this question had any significant meaning. There was *never* an actual attempt to make EMS work the way that everyone played it from the time it first came out; the PtB just shrugged their collective shoulders and said, "Too bad, so sad."
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 05, 2012, 11:59:52 AM
At this point we're getting into a semantics argument.

Elders: If my opponent has one lost soul in a Green site, and I activate Chariot of Fire and rescue with Shamgar. My opponent chooses not to block. Does Chariot of Fire activate?

Also,

If I activate Chariot of Fire and rescue with Shamgar and my opponent blocks with Uzzah, does Chariot of Fire activate?
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Master KChief on December 05, 2012, 08:39:36 PM
I think the real question is whether you're using Limited or Unlimited Shamgar.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Rawrlolsauce! on December 05, 2012, 08:54:43 PM
I had it ruled by Tim at the T2 only 3? years ago that I couldn't use Jacob + OON to choose the blocker if I didn't have access to a soul. I think i was trying to kill an Uzzah I couldn't get past or something like that.

But things might've changed since then, and other elders may disagree.
Title: Re: Taunt
Post by: Warrior_Monk on December 05, 2012, 11:58:00 PM
Based on the definition for rescue attempt:
Quote from: REG
A rescue attempt is the effort to recover a Lost Soul from the Land of Bondage by battle. The battle is considered a rescue attempt if a Hero has access to a Lost Soul at any point in the battle.
I would say Chariot of Fire would not activate. I'm not really sure what access means though. Does it just pertain to sites? Does it also effect protection? If it changes mid-battle, does that make a difference?

Based on the definition for battle challenge:
A battle challenge may be given when there is no Lost Soul available for a Hero to rescue.
I would say Chariot of Fire would activate. Just because you don't have access doesn't mean there isn't one available.
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