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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Sean on June 07, 2009, 12:14:09 PM
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I have the Color Guard Lost Soul in a green Site and A New Beginning is played. Everything is shuffled except my Evil Characters. That's how we play it but I'm not clear on why we play it that way. It would seem to me that if the protection is shuffled that the Evil Characters would be shuffled also. Could somebody explain this in a little more detail please.
A side question, would characters that are face down (Ambush) be shuffled by A New Beginning?
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The protection does not get negated by ANB.
I was miffed that face-down (out of play) characters got shuffled but the reasoning the PTB used is consistent with set-asides being shuffled too.
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The protection does not get negated by ANB.
That' s not as detailed as I was hoping for.
I was miffed that face-down (out of play) characters got shuffled but the reasoning the PTB used is consistent with set-asides being shuffled too.
What does being set aside have to do with being face down? ANB specifically targets the set aside area so I'm not seeing any correlation between that and face down.
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ANB's ability is instant. The site and color guard get shuffled at the same moment so the "protect from shuffling" ability that color guard gives ECs does not get negated or turned off.
Set-aside is out of play. Face-down is out of play. PTB stated that the phrase "ALL cards..." includes cards out of play.
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Set-aside is out of play. Face-down is out of play. PTB stated that the phrase "ALL cards..." includes cards out of play.
ANB specifically targets the set aside area so it doesn't matter that it is out of play or in play, it is specifically targeted. ANB doesn't specifically target face down, it just says "all" like other cards do. Wrath of Satan says to discard all Heroes. If ANB shuffles face down Heroes then WoS should discard face down Heroes.
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If ANB shuffles face down Heroes then WoS should discard face down Heroes.
Face down cards have no identity. The card is not a hero until it is turned face up. "Cards" are cards whether they are face up or face down.
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Yeah. What he said. :)
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Then how can you begin a Rescue Attempt with one? The rulebook clearly states that only Heroes may begin Rescue Attempts.
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I would guess that a Special Ability said it could.
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Hey,
A New Beginning targets all cards to be shuffled into draw piles and then shuffles all of the cards it targeted into draw piles. When it is targeting the Evil Characters are protected, so they are not targeted, then since they were not targeted they are not shuffled. Once the shuffling happens the lost soul is gone so their protection goes away but at that point it's too late to target them.
Face down cards are shuffled by A New Beginning. I believe the reason for this is because the ability says, "ALL cards" rather than, "all cards." If it just said "all cards" face down cards wouldn't be shuffled :D I really don't understand myself why we've decided that face down cards get shuffled, I just know that we decided that they do.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I believe the reason for this is because the ability says, "ALL cards" rather than, "all cards." If it just said "all cards" face down cards wouldn't be shuffled Cheesy I really don't understand myself why we've decided that face down cards get shuffled, I just know that we decided that they do.
Interesting, I move that all cards use the capitalization method from here onward so that the PTB can tell us what cards do rather than having to adhere to rules of targeting and all that complicated stuff.
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.... which would follow suit with the fact that PTB is capitalized. Come to think of it, so is STAMP, so I think he should make all official rulings from now on.
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I agree. That way we would also solve the issue of having demons be redeemed. I have a question though. How does this change effect what is under your avatar picture?
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I was yelling.
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I disagree. Let's ask the PTB for a ruling.
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STAMP!!!!
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OFFICIALLY, CAPITALIZATION WILL BE USED FOR ALL RULINGS AND INTERPRETATION OF RULINGS. ENGINEERS AND DRAFTERS WILL BE THE "NEW" PTB.
:P
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Face down cards are shuffled by A New Beginning. I believe the reason for this is because the ability says, "ALL cards" rather than, "all cards." If it just said "all cards" face down cards wouldn't be shuffled :D I really don't understand myself why we've decided that face down cards get shuffled, I just know that we decided that they do.
I thought that their being shuffled had nothing to do with them being face up or down, but the fact that they were connected to something that was being shuffled. For instance, the site guard LS puts an EC face down on a site but when ANB is played, While they may be out of play, the site they are on is shuffled therefore, taking them with the ANB effect. Same for the Darkness, etc.
Also, the Assyrian and Syrrian protection forts offer the EC's the same protection against shuffling because while they are protected by the forts ability, they are not connected to it (like Kingdoms of this World or Goshen for Heroes) In the latter case, while they are protected from the effect, they are also connected to Kingdoms/Goshen which is not protected from the effect of ANB.
Are there any other examples of face down characters that are not connected to sites or fortresses? if so, I think you can make a case that they should be protected from ANB's effect because they are out of play and not connected to anything that is being shuffled.
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Assyrian Camp does not protect from shuffle. Only Syrians have that.
Are there any other examples of face down characters that are not connected to sites or fortresses?
Yes, Ambushed Heroes and Invisible Beings'd angels. They are face down in territory, connected to nothing.
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Assyrian Camp does not protect from shuffle. Only Syrians have that.
Are there any other examples of face down characters that are not connected to sites or fortresses?
Yes, Ambushed Heroes and Invisible Beings'd angels. They are face down in territory, connected to nothing.
Oh, I though Assyrian Camp protected from Shuffle as well.
as far as the face down heroes go, I say ANB doesnt target them. What about face down artifacts in the artifact pile also?
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ANB target all cards in the "Field of Play". Field of Play is a location, and face-down cards still reside in a location. The default state of "in play" is more like a condition, the same way "in battle" is a status for the cards engaged in the current battle only, while "Field of Battle" targets all cards in that location.
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"Field of Battle" targets all cards in that location.
So then Rizpah's Sackcloth (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/rizpahssackcloth1.htm) could discard a face down Hero?
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How do you plan on playing Rizpah's Sackloth against a face down hero?
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Egyptian Horses completes before Ambush flips over the Hero.
If "Field of Battle" is a location then why wouldn't A Look Back (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/alookback.htm) discard a face down Hero in a territory?
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Because you cant target the face down card as a Hero?
*EDIT*
However, If that is the case, Abomination of Desicration COULD hit a face down hero, as it only specifies a "Card" in a "Territory."
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However, If that is the case, Abomination of Desicration COULD hit a face down hero, as it only specifies a "Card" in a "Territory."
Thanks for the extra example!
Abomination of Desolation (http://www.redemptionreg.com/REG/abominationofdesolation.htm)
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I personally wouldn't be opposed to any of those plays. You should probably get a confirming opinion, though.
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OK, I'll wait for STAMP.
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I CONCUR.
NOW YOU JUST NEED TO FIND SOMEONE WHO STILL PLAYS WITH FACE-DOWN CHARACTERS.
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OK, where's the play tester without any pants?
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I CONCUR.
NOW YOU JUST NEED TO FIND SOMEONE WHO STILL PLAYS WITH FACE-DOWN CHARACTERS.
According to the ANB theory of form and style, this statement must be super-true because it is in all-caps.
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Still looking for the thoughts of other play testers and PTB members.
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PTB?
I'm kind of like a play tester... :D I think that you can target "cards" face down or not, but not "heroes" that are face down, because you don't "know" that they are heroes.
As for protection from shuffling, yes, they are. It's just like if you play coliseum lions on Phineus, then they play jehoida's strength to interrupt it, you can't target another hero. As soon as ANB is used, the targets are confirmed, so if it has protection then, it doesn't matter if the protection gets shuffled.
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I'm a playdoh tester and a PBJ member. Did you want my input? ;)
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PBJ? peanut butter and jelly club?
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PTB = Powers that Be = The people that can officially make rulings.
I think that you can target "cards" face down or not, but not "heroes" that are face down, because you don't "know" that they are heroes.
I still don't get why we must reveal a card to prove it meets the requirements of a search ability, but we don't when putting a card face down on the table.
.... which would follow suit with the fact that PTB is capitalized. Come to think of it, so is STAMP, so I think he should make all official rulings from now on.
Things bode badly for me.
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I'm a PBJ with a baseball bat! :D
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I'm a PBJ with a baseball bat! :D
(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.artofwarcentral.com%2Fimages%2Fsmilies%2Fbananahuge.gif&hash=cedeb74326c99423759537ce640f7d1b592ff8a9)
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Blinding Demon:
Negate good drawing and good search abilities. Remove all face-down Heroes in battle, territory or set-aside from the game. Cannot be interrupted.
If you can't target face-down cards as heroes, does Blinding Demon's second SA work? Or does it work because it specifically targets face-down heroes?
Another card to consider:
The Assyrian Spoilers:
If another Assyrian is in play, discard a face-down Artifact at random from opponent's Artifact pile. If blocking, search your discard pile for Plunderers and play it.
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Both of those cards specifically target facedown cards so their SA's work. I think they meant that to target a hero means a hero in play. but if you specifically target something out of play (such as set aside areas) then the SA's work provided there are targets in those areas.
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Both of those cards specifically target facedown cards so their SA's work. I think they meant that to target a hero means a hero in play. but if you specifically target something out of play (such as set aside areas) then the SA's work provided there are targets in those areas.
However, the fact that you can target them means that face down cards keep their identifiers when out of play.
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Hey,
I was trying to hold off on adding my two cents to this issue, but now that we have four different threads about it, I guess it's time to chime in. The current rules set regarding face down cards is confusing. I believe it should be replaced with the following:
Face Down Cards
A card can only be played face down if a special ability requires it to be face down or (for Artifacts) a game rule allows it.
While a card is face down its card type is determined based on the requirements of the ability or game rule that allowed the card to be placed onto the playing surface. All other attributes of the card are considered to be non-existent while the card is face down.
A face down card is protected from all special abilities except those that specify that they can target face down cards.
Change: Face Down cards are no longer considered to be out of play at all times. A face down card is still out of play if it is set aside, but while in a territory, an artifact pile, or the Field of Battle, a face down card is now considered to be in play.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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That change would weaken compensatory strategies for AoCPromo and other pre-block winners.
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It would bring back the believed value of Split Altar though.
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Hey,
That change would weaken compensatory strategies for AoCPromo and other pre-block winners.
It would bring back the believed value of Split Altar though.
I don't understand either of those comments. It wouldn't change how AoC Promo or Split Altar affects face down cards at all.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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A face down card is protected from all special abilities except those that specify that they can target face down cards.
Change: Face Down cards are no longer considered to be out of play at all times. A face down card is still out of play if it is set aside, but while in a territory, an artifact pile, or the Field of Battle, a face down card is now considered to be in play.
What is the difference between being out of play and being in play but protected unless it explicitly states it targets face down cards?
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I don't understand either of those comments. It wouldn't change how AoC Promo or Split Altar affects face down cards at all.
You don't think AoC would affect a face-down character in play differently than it affects a face-down character out of play?
:edit: Aggie cut to the point faster than I got there.
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Hey,
That change would weaken compensatory strategies for AoCPromo and other pre-block winners.
It would bring back the believed value of Split Altar though.
I don't understand either of those comments. It wouldn't change how AoC Promo or Split Altar affects face down cards at all.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
AoCP could kill face down characters then, and Split Altar would be allowed to shuffle in an entire artifact pile.
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I think the whole of Nobody's quote is important, not just the part after "Change:". They're in play, but protected from everything that doesn't target face down cards.
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Right, which as you say, what is the point in making that distinction?
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Hey,
What is the difference between being out of play and being in play but protected unless it explicitly states it targets face down cards?
To game play, very very little. To the intuitiveness, system, and top-down-ness of the game, a whole lot.
Consider the following elements of the status quo...
Ambush says that the character enters battle face down. The face down rule says while it's face down it's out of play. So which is it, in battle or out of play, it can't be both?
Face down artifacts are out of play by the face down rule. The artifact pile is in play. So how do we explain that cards in one location (out of play) make up a pile that is in a different location (in play)?
Invisible Beings sets a character aside face down. Is the character out of play (set aside) or out of play (face down)?
Those three are much easier to explain under the system I proposed than they are under the system that is currently in place.
Tschow,
Tim "Sir Nobody" Maly
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I disagree. You're only trading one exception (out of play but in territory) for another (in play but magically immune). I don't see how it's not intuitive to look at a card in the Artifact pile and recognize, hey, it's in the Artifact pile. So no, I don't really see any significant difference between the two in intuitiveness or top-down nature.