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Redemption® Collectible Trading Card Game HQ => Official Rules & Errata => Ruling Questions => Topic started by: Korunks on February 09, 2011, 09:03:11 PM

Title: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 09, 2011, 09:03:11 PM

Can "A Child is Born" and "Freedom!" be considered as involving music?  According to tradition The angels sang to shepherds when Christ was born.  And the events of the Jews freedom involved music after the crossing of the Red Sea.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Gabe on February 09, 2011, 09:08:30 PM

Do the scripture reference for either of those cards indicate they involved music?

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 09, 2011, 09:12:47 PM

So with cards that represent events, we can only use the scripture on the actual card to determine if it involves music?  I thought Freedom! represented the freedom of the Israelite's from Egypt which involved singing as part of the whole event(Exodus 15:1).  As for a child is born, The scripture only says the angels praised the lord.  It did not specifically say singing.  But if we allow tradition to define some cards, why can't tradition define that the Angels sang?

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Minister Polarius on February 09, 2011, 11:07:41 PM

These are a little bit sketch. I think you have good merit for Freedom! because the Bible specifically talks about singing, and I'd support having it involve music, but not ACiB since there's an assumption involved.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 10, 2011, 09:30:50 AM

I could agree with that as well.  So can we get a ruling on whether Freedom! involves music?

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Gabe on February 10, 2011, 09:48:48 AM

I don't see anything musical here.

Quote from: Bible

And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. Exodus 12:37 (King James Version)

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FFreedom%21%2520%28F%29.gif&hash=cc4f865f4545899a4684c7717cf024c3786c6861)

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Noah on February 10, 2011, 10:57:01 AM

Quote from: Gabe on February 10, 2011, 09:48:48 AM

I don't see anything musical here.

Quote from: Bible

And the children of Israel journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand on foot that were men, beside children. Exodus 12:37 (King James Version)

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FFreedom%21%2520%28F%29.gif&hash=cc4f865f4545899a4684c7717cf024c3786c6861)

I agree that the verse doesn't say anything but singing was involved.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Minister Polarius on February 10, 2011, 11:47:09 AM

The verse is from later during the exodus. If it were from right when they left Egypt you could sustain the argument, but the card depicts a moment long after the initial jubilation.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 10, 2011, 01:00:28 PM

Also there is precedent from musicians.  No where in David's verse on any of his cards indicate that he is a musician.  Likewise with Mosese and several others.  Yet we consider all of them to be musicians.  The card feedom seems to be refering to the event of the exodus.  That event included music.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 01:12:18 PM

Quote from: Korunks on February 10, 2011, 01:00:28 PM

Also there is precedent from musicians.  No where in David's verse on any of his cards indicate that he is a musician.  Likewise with Mosese and several others.  Yet we consider all of them to be musicians.  The card feedom seems to be refering to the event of the exodus.  That event included music.

We know David/Moses were musicians because we have a record of their music. Some verses on various Pharoahs or Kings may not specifically reference the civilizations they hail from, but that doesn't mean we don't consider them to be from that civilization. As Pol stated, if the verse was from an earlier point and described the music associated with the Exodus, there would most certainly be a stronger case. However, there needs to be a point where we can draw a line. Taking Egypt's Wealth also describes an event associated with the Exodus, should that be musical? How about Pillar of a Cloud or Drowning Pharaoh's Army? Since the concept of Freedom isn't inherently musical, and the verse on it is not a song or Psalm and doesn't reference anything musical, I really don't think there's a strong enough case here.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Noah on February 10, 2011, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 01:12:18 PM

Quote from: Korunks on February 10, 2011, 01:00:28 PM

Also there is precedent from musicians.  No where in David's verse on any of his cards indicate that he is a musician.  Likewise with Mosese and several others.  Yet we consider all of them to be musicians.  The card feedom seems to be refering to the event of the exodus.  That event included music.

We know David/Moses were musicians because we have a record of their music. Some verses on various Pharoahs or Kings may not specifically reference the civilizations they hail from, but that doesn't mean we don't consider them to be from that civilization. As Pol stated, if the verse was from an earlier point and described the music associated with the Exodus, there would most certainly be a stronger case. However, there needs to be a point where we can draw a line. Taking Egypt's Wealth also describes an event associated with the Exodus, should that be musical? How about Pillar of a Cloud or Drowning Pharaoh's Army? Since the concept of Freedom isn't inherently musical, and the verse on it is not a song or Psalm and doesn't reference anything musical, I really don't think there's a strong enough case here.

Good point, Now that you mention it there are alot of cards that have to do with the Exodus, so it doesn't make sense to make all of them involve music, but then just making one involve music doesn't make sense either.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Gabe on February 10, 2011, 04:13:03 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNo3 on February 10, 2011, 03:30:07 PM

Good point, Now that you mention it there are alot of cards that have to do with the Exodus, so it doesn't make sense to make all of them involve music, but then just making one involve music doesn't make sense either.

Quote from: Bible

Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.  Exodus 15:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FJubilee%2520%28E%29.gif&hash=5a984b8ebefdc185986689e0c6acc94aee391a80)

In light of the scripture and art for Jubilee, it makes sense that it's defined as "involving music".  Wouldn't you agree?

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Noah on February 10, 2011, 05:13:10 PM

Quote from: Gabe on February 10, 2011, 04:13:03 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNo3 on February 10, 2011, 03:30:07 PM

Good point, Now that you mention it there are alot of cards that have to do with the Exodus, so it doesn't make sense to make all of them involve music, but then just making one involve music doesn't make sense either.

Quote from: Bible

Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.  Exodus 15:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FJubilee%2520%28E%29.gif&hash=5a984b8ebefdc185986689e0c6acc94aee391a80)

In light of the scripture and art for Jubilee, it makes sense that it's defined as "involving music".  Wouldn't you agree?

Ok, I agree that a part of the Exodus could be considerd to IM. so I guess the real questoin is what part of the exodus does Freedom! Represent?

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 05:14:57 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNo3 on February 10, 2011, 05:13:10 PM

Ok, I agree that a part of the Exodus could be considerd to IM. so I guess the real questoin is what part of the exodus does Freedom! Represent?

I would say the part where they traveled from Rameses to Succoth... ::)

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 09:27:54 AM

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 05:14:57 PM

I would say the part where they traveled from Rameses to Succoth... ::)

Is that a serious answer or a flippant one?  I honestly cannot tell.

Quote from: Gabe on February 10, 2011, 04:13:03 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNo3 on February 10, 2011, 03:30:07 PM

Good point, Now that you mention it there are alot of cards that have to do with the Exodus, so it doesn't make sense to make all of them involve music, but then just making one involve music doesn't make sense either.

Quote from: Bible

Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.  Exodus 15:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FJubilee%2520%28E%29.gif&hash=5a984b8ebefdc185986689e0c6acc94aee391a80)

In light of the scripture and art for Jubilee, it makes sense that it's defined as "involving music".  Wouldn't you agree?

But then how does a card like this make sense?

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FBow%2520and%2520Arrow%2520%28Ki%29.gif&hash=4ebc677da833468d6c54e6ec2737f388b4db3582)

Scripture quote:

Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.

It only has a scripture referencing Music.  So the premise that the art and scripture both need to indicate that it "Involves music" is false.  The real questions(IMHO) are:

1. Can artwork alone count towards specifying "involving music"?  Scripture alone already does.
2. Does the art on Freedom! indicate the portion of the exodus close to the Red Sea incident(which involved music).
3. If not what portion of the Exodus is Freedom! representing?
4. Does Freedom! represent the freedom event from Egypt completely?

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Professoralstad on February 11, 2011, 10:44:41 AM

Quote from: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 09:27:54 AM

Quote from: Professoralstad on February 10, 2011, 05:14:57 PM

I would say the part where they traveled from Rameses to Succoth... ::)

Is that a serious answer or a flippant one?  I honestly cannot tell.

Kind of both. I just read it off of the Scripture verse, which decribed that journey.

Quote

Quote from: Gabe on February 10, 2011, 04:13:03 PM

Quote from: tripleplayNo3 on February 10, 2011, 03:30:07 PM

Good point, Now that you mention it there are alot of cards that have to do with the Exodus, so it doesn't make sense to make all of them involve music, but then just making one involve music doesn't make sense either.

Quote from: Bible

Then Miriam the prophet, Aaron’s sister, took a timbrel in her hand, and all the women followed her, with timbrels and dancing.  Exodus 15:20 (New International Version, ©2010)

(https://www.cactusforums.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.redemptionreg.com%2FREG%2FLinkedDocuments%2FJubilee%2520%28E%29.gif&hash=5a984b8ebefdc185986689e0c6acc94aee391a80)

In light of the scripture and art for Jubilee, it makes sense that it's defined as "involving music".  Wouldn't you agree?

But then how does a card like this make sense?

Scripture quote:

Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.

If I recall correctly, Bow and Arrow is from the Song of the Bow. Any enhancement with a verse from a song or Psalm has always been ruled to involve music.

It only has a scripture referencing Music.  So the premise that the art and scripture both need to indicate that it "Involves music" is false.  The real questions(IMHO) are:

I don't know where that premise came from. IMO, if a card depicts music being played it is musical, and if the scripture reference refers to music it is musical. Freedom! does neither.

1. Can artwork alone count towards specifying "involving music"?  Scripture alone already does.
2. Does the art on Freedom! indicate the portion of the exodus close to the Red Sea incident(which involved music).
3. If not what portion of the Exodus is Freedom! representing?
4. Does Freedom! represent the freedom event from Egypt completely?

1. I would say yes.
2. Maybe, but there are no instruments depicted on the card, and the scripture verse on the card says nothing about music.
3. I couldn't answer that, as I did not create the card.
4. See #3

I would posit that for a card to be musical, it either has to A) Have a verse from a song/Psalm B) Refer to songs, singing, or playing instruments or C) Depict musical instruments being played. I see no evidence that Freedom! qualifies as any of those.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 12:49:26 PM

Quote

I would posit that for a card to be musical, it either has to A) Have a verse from a song/Psalm B) Refer to songs, singing, or playing instruments or C) Depict musical instruments being played. I see no evidence that Freedom! qualifies as any of those.

But the redemption phrase is not "musical", it is "Involves Music".  If Freedom! represents the part of the exodus where the Israelite's are leaving Egypt up to the Wilderness, that event involved music.  The only way I can logically see that Freedom! does not involve music is if Freedom! does not represent the Exodus.  If it doesn't I would like to know what it does represent.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Noah on February 11, 2011, 01:02:02 PM

Quote from: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 12:49:26 PM

Quote

I would posit that for a card to be musical, it either has to A) Have a verse from a song/Psalm B) Refer to songs, singing, or playing instruments or C) Depict musical instruments being played. I see no evidence that Freedom! qualifies as any of those.

But the redemption phrase is not "musical", it is "Involves Music".  If Freedom! represents the part of the exodus where the Israelite's are leaving Egypt up to the Wilderness, that event involved music.  The only way I can logically see that Freedom! does not involve music is if Freedom! does not represent the Exodus.  If it doesn't I would like to know what it does represent.

 +1 first we need to figure out what it represents before we come to a conclusion on whether or not it involves music.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: browarod on February 11, 2011, 01:50:09 PM

IMHO, I think it's a stretch to claim any card that is part of an event that may have involved music at some point during the event is Involving Music. You'd end up with cards like Deluge of Rain that are suddenly Involving Music because someone on the ark undoubtedly sang in the rain. If there was a "Singing in the Rain" card, by all means give it the Involves Music identifier, but a card that represents one part or one aspect or one singular event/person from a time shouldn't automatically receive that identifier (or any identifier, really) unless it can be shown that they/it were/was directly involved in the music. Burial Involving Music? Funeral dirges, ftw. Wedding Parties totally Involve Music, too.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 04:44:00 PM

Quote from: browarod on February 11, 2011, 01:50:09 PM

IMHO, I think it's a stretch to claim any card that is part of an event that may have involved music at some point during the event is Involving Music. You'd end up with cards like Deluge of Rain that are suddenly Involving Music because someone on the ark undoubtedly sang in the rain. If there was a "Singing in the Rain" card, by all means give it the Involves Music identifier, but a card that represents one part or one aspect or one singular event/person from a time shouldn't automatically receive that identifier (or any identifier, really) unless it can be shown that they/it were/was directly involved in the music. Burial Involving Music? Funeral dirges, ftw. Wedding Parties totally Involve Music, too.

But unlike those cards the singing in the Exodus event actually has scriptural reference.  Exodus 15:1 says they sang.  Please do not twist my words, I am asking for cards representing events that have scripture showing there was music involved be classified as music being involved.  If not I propose that we change the definition because if events "Involving Music" are considered not "Involving Music" then its really going to be confusing.

***Update***

On reconsideration Wedding Party should be listed as "Including Music".  Jewish Tradition suggests that there is singing and dancing at the marriage ceremony.  We already go to extra biblical sources for other cards like St. Patrick.  Why can't Jewish tradition be enough to classify a jewish wedding as "Including Music"?

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: The Schaef on February 11, 2011, 05:11:51 PM

The "Exodus Event" spanned forty years; it's not reasonable to assume that if any singing occurred at any time during that entire span, then anything involving that event must then qualify.  Now suddenly, anyone who used an object large enough, heavy enough or sharp enough to kill a man suddenly counts as a "weapon" and anyone who murdered another human was "involved in an earthly battle".

Enhancements involving music only apply to cards that directly reference the specific event or are themselves a song in written form.  This is the reason all the Psalms count, and Bow and Arrow, taken from a passage known as The Song of the Bow.  I actually have written down somewhere a number of other passages like this, e.g. Deborah's Song, in the event that the chance to make them might arise one day.

But no, the music has to be referenced fairly directly to count.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 06:27:22 PM

:giveup:

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 08:52:15 PM

Ok I removed the complaint.  I am sorry but I do not feel like having a multi page discussion about why I feel this card involved music, those seldom end well and in the end it makes little difference.  I apologize I let some of my frustration show.  If you would really like to know why and what I feel I will gladly discuss it in pm's.  But further discourse serves no purpose at this point and will edify no one.  So again:

 :giveup:

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: The Schaef on February 11, 2011, 09:23:22 PM

A multi-page discussion is not necessary.

The card title is not musical.
The card art does not depict music.
The verse does not describe a musical event.  The nearest such event described in Scripture is three chapters away.
The verse is not itself a song.  If the other Scripture were listed, it would be musical because Exodus 15 is known as The Song of Moses and Miriam.

These all seem like very reasonable criteria, and fairly easy to understand by most players.  They also allow a pretty broad range of cards to fall in their net, like Bow and Arrow, The Stars and Protection of Angels.  I don't think it's unreasonable to rule against a card that meets none of those criteria, and I don't think it indicates some major problem with the game or the rules to say so.

So you see, no multi-page discussion needed.  That's the whole thing in two paragraphs.

Title: Re: Some more musical Stuff
Post by: Korunks on February 11, 2011, 09:48:07 PM

There is no point in further discussion of this.